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10THAmendment

I'm beginning to have a tithing problem, only not in the traditional sense

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1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

what about the new temple ceremony?  was that inspired?  funny how they changed it in the first place, since I was taught growing up that it was restored perfectly! , but Pogi just told me that prophets aren't somebody we can follow? can you believe that this new ceremony is correct? it kind of implies that either the old or new prophets were wrong, if we have such major changes, or is this a situation where god changed his mind, like he did about black people?  sorry didn't mean to bring up your racist "god"

There are no real answers, most of the posters on here have had significant revelation that the church is true. Now should I beat your faith up? I could name dozens of things in the Bible that fall away. And now prove to me the Bible is true, everyone has their beliefs. No one belief is better than the other if it makes them become better people. If the LDS want to believe it's the one true church isn't that the same as you believing that Jesus is the Saviour? You don't have real proof that He did, or that he rose from the dead. Do you? When you research the Bible or Jesus, it may unravel. So don't you think it should be up to each individual? Have you studied the Christian past, they haven't always been the nicest people. https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/reasons-humanists-reject-bible/

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2 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

here's another fun fact; the church takes in 7 billion a year in tithing according to the article below.  They also say they do $40 million of charity work a year, which sounds good at first, but that only equals half a percent (0.005%) of their income, that actually goes to helping the needy.  Doesn't seem Christian to me, with all the starving people in the world, all that money could feed quite a few people, but explain to me again pogi, how does your church actually care about people and help people?  i'll include another article showing your church holds $32 billion in stocks, which makes your tiny annual charity work seem extra pathetic and super Un-Christian.  your church demands 10% of your money, plus fast offering and other donations, yet they can only manage to give half a percent to the needy?  what did the bible say about giving?  the widow that gave two mites, 

Mark 12:38-44 King James Version (KJV)

38 And he said unto them in his doctrine, Beware of the scribes, which love to go in long clothing, and love salutations in the marketplaces,

39 And the chief seats in the synagogues, and the uppermost rooms at feasts:

40 Which devour widows' houses, and for a pretence make long prayers: these shall receive greater damnation.

41 And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much.

42 And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

43 And he called unto him his disciples, and saith unto them, Verily I say unto you, That this poor widow hath cast more in, than all they which have cast into the treasury:

44 For all they did cast in of their abundance; but she of her want did cast in all that she had, even all her living.

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa-politics-mormons/insight-mormon-church-made-wealthy-by-donations-idUSBRE87B05W20120812

https://kutv.com/news/local/mormonleaks-says-new-documents-link-lds-church-to-companies-worth-over-32-billion

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865657898/LDS-Church-welfare-humanitarian-efforts-average-40-million-per-year-apostle-says.html

We need financial transparency for all religious organizations in the USA.  Anyone institutions eligible for tax exempt status should at the very least be accountable for rigorous transparency of their books, that way people donating to these organizations can have a good idea how the money they are donating is being utilized. 

Certainly if these statistics are true with respect to the % of overall revenue generated annually by the CoJCoLDS, this invites some serious questions about how the church is managing its resources.  

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3 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

The end signs of the bible are starting to manifest like crazy lately.  The mainstream labels it as "global climate change", but the bible labels it the signs of the end time. 

 

3 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

 I understand trying to talk sense to a mormon isn't usually possible,

Pot meet kettle. 

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38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

There are no real answers, most of the posters on here have had significant revelation that the church is true. Now should I beat your faith up? I could name dozens of things in the Bible that fall away. And now prove to me the Bible is true, everyone has their beliefs. No one belief is better than the other if it makes them become better people. If the LDS want to believe it's the one true church isn't that the same as you believing that Jesus is the Saviour? You don't have real proof that He did, or that he rose from the dead. Do you? When you research the Bible or Jesus, it may unravel. So don't you think it should be up to each individual? Have you studied the Christian past, they haven't always been the nicest people. https://americanhumanist.org/what-is-humanism/reasons-humanists-reject-bible/

Good points, people and institutions have a pretty sketchy past and its wise remember that.  Hopefully we learn from the mistakes of our past and the good ideas from the past and try to create a better present and potential future.  No idea is sacrosanct and above scrutiny, no organization or tradition is exempt from critical examination.  

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22 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

maybe Satan is like that jerk roommate we've all had, that writes his name on his food in the fridge to mark his territory and possessions... i mean why would the Mormon church use the same symbols as Freemasons and the Occult (satanic)? is that Satan marking HIS territory?  i'm just asking for a little logic and critical thinking folks

Have you heard of the Five Wounds of Christ symbol?  Is that satanic?

Quote

There are many connections between the pentagram and Christianity. Before the cross, it was a preferred emblem to adorn the jewelry and amulets of early Christians (followed by an ‘x’ or a phoenix). The pentagram was associated with the five wounds of Christ, and because it could be drawn in one continuous movement of the pen, the Alpha and the Omega as one.

http://symboldictionary.net/?p=1893

Edited by Calm
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20 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

yes calm, your article states that it goes back to babylon, and well we know there wasn't any satanism in babylon right?, haha  i mean God only had to destroy it due to its evil... and satan has been around ever since, pushing his symbols,... so no, it wasn't a Christian symbol, it was a symbol for those that followed satan, and he tried to disguise it as Christian, same way the Mormons are trying to do today

So once a symbol has been used in one way, it can never be used in another with another meaning in your view?

 

 

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Posted (edited)
3 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

and finally Calm, if you''re so convinced the Pentagram is a Christian symbol, then why don't you put one on the door of your house?  wear one on your neck if you're so confident?  wear it to church this Sunday?  I'll even buy you one on Amazon.  I mean no mormon would dare wear a Cross... but you're saying wearing a Pentagram is cool?  put your money where your mouth is

I have no problem with wearing a cross, crucifix, or a pentagram or anything else as a symbol of one's Christian faith.  If I wore jewelry, I would probably own a Celtic cross.  But I don't,  I have bought one for my sister who is a devout Saint.

I believe symbols hold the meaning we give them, they are not inherently Christian or pagan or Jewish, anymore than a T is inherently English, Greek, or a cross.

Edited by Calm

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

well if they don't have power, than why does satan use them so much?  just cause he's bored i guess?  so when we were warned about idols by Jesus Christ, he was just kinda joking around?  cause theres no harm in them?  

 There is the power we put into them by using them as expressions of false faith...think of it as using the same letters in a prayer as we use in blaspheming God.  Are the letters evil in the prayer because blasphemy is evil?  Letters are symbols for meaning, just as a pentagram is.

Do you believe idols are anything but wood or rock (or plastic these days)?  Can they actually do anything in your belief?  If so, what?

Edited by Calm

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1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

yeah, the five wounds of Christ symbol isn't a pentagram, google it, here are pentagrams, used in satanic ceremonies and on the Nauvoo temple... also one of the most recognized satanic symbols period.  5 year olds know that

download (1).jpg

download (2).jpg

download (3).jpg

Not a satanic symbol when the temple was built. This is like claiming that the ancient Greeks who used the Swastika as a symbol for Zeus were secretly Nazis.

1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

yes calm, your article states that it goes back to babylon, and well we know there wasn't any satanism in babylon right?, haha  i mean God only had to destroy it due to its evil... and satan has been around ever since, pushing his symbols,... so no, it wasn't a Christian symbol, it was a symbol for those that followed satan, and he tried to disguise it as Christian, same way the Mormons are trying to do today

So any symbolism ever associated with a pagan faith is a satanic symbol. Oh boy, you must live the ascetic life and a scared one if you are convinced that symbols can channel infernal power. Uh-oh, the cross was a symbol in Egyptian paganism and in other cultures was fertility symbol about sex and the pagan gods overseeing it. All Christians are SATANISTS!

1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

well if they don't have power, than why does satan use them so much?  just cause he's bored i guess?  so when we were warned about idols by Jesus Christ, he was just kinda joking around?  cause theres no harm in them?  

He does not use them. Morons who think they are channeling Satan’s power use them and imagine they are tapping dark forces. They can pick anything. Satan does not care. He has better things to do. Idols are things worshipped. If you can establish that members of our Church worshipped the pentagram on the temple you might have a point. Spoiler: They did not so the comparison is asinine.

1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

and finally Calm, if you''re so convinced the Pentagram is a Christian symbol, then why don't you put one on the door of your house?  wear one on your neck if you're so confident?  wear it to church this Sunday?  I'll even buy you one on Amazon.  I mean no mormon would dare wear a Cross... but you're saying wearing a Pentagram is cool?  put your money where your mouth is

Because the meanings of symbols change. Is this a shocker for you? Plus we rarely wear symbols or display them on our doors. Is your door festooned with every Christian symbol that ever existed including the pentagram?

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21 hours ago, RevTestament said:

If I sound like a servant of God, maybe perhaps that is what I am. Yeah, and I do seem to be heard about like what the Jews heard.  No one heads warnings, because they are numb to them. It is not a warning out of intimidation or fear though. It is a warning out of love to avoid not being able to enter paradise. There are rules to entering paradise. Repentance is a pretty easy bar. That is why Christ says His yoke is easy. My yoke is hard, but I have taken it upon  myself - I do not mean to discourage others from repentance. Following Christ is not so bad. It is simple and easy. If you have no selfish tendencies to repent of then, I assume you are ready, and God will be pleased with you. Perhaps you are better than Paul who admitted he was in a constant struggle with the natural man. May God bless you on your journey Stemelbow. He still loves you.

So you think too that God was going to murder people in Jerusalem because they refused o repent of selfish tendencies and such?  I think every person I know repents in the way you suggest.  They may not revere Jesus but they certainly see their own selfishness and wish to do better.  

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On 3/29/2019 at 7:09 AM, stemelbow said:

So you think too that God was going to murder people in Jerusalem because they refused o repent of selfish tendencies and such?  I think every person I know repents in the way you suggest.  They may not revere Jesus but they certainly see their own selfishness and wish to do better.  

You define murder as killing. As I have already explained God kills essentially all of us since we are made mortal, and have an appointed time of death. If God warns people they are headed out of His grace, and they do not heed Him, how is He wrong? That is something that someone who loves others would do. Should He continue to suffer wrong-doers to go without consequences? As He reveals more truth we become more responsible to repent and follow. At that point allowing us to be killed is not murder. Otherwise, He murders all mortals when they are born with a fuse of death. His whole hope is to persuade men to follow Him. Force is a last resort to allow His word to come to pass. You make it sound like murder is his first resort. 

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:47 PM, SouthernMo said:

Did you know that early in the church, baptisms for the dead were done without a temple?  Endowments were not, but there’s no reason god NEEDS us to do that work in a temple.

nGood point,

I might be wrong but the early church seemed to have other financial challenges - PEF, loosing thier ladn, livestock, farms, etc. more than once, losing their jobs, etc. more than once

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On 3/26/2019 at 9:26 AM, stemelbow said:

I opened the BOM the other day and started in on 1 Ne.  I was left again wondering what was so bad about the people in Jerusalem.  What'd they do?  Eat babies or have open marriages or something?  I wondered what it'd be like to have Lehi standing in the hurried masses and whining at you--"repent, ye wicked fool.  Don't you know that God spake unto Moses and saved Israel.  Repent of your' evils and stuff."  

I wondered what would be said if I was like "what did I do that was so bad?  I'm just living my life, working my knuckles to the bone trying to support my people and all of that.  Scraping together resources for us to live."

"ye have failed to live righteously and god will destroy you even this whole city for their wickedness"

me:  "What wickedness?  Again what did I do?"  

"ye have not heard he voice of God.  He saved the Israelites from destruction and he's not going to do it this time.  He's going to destroy the city lest ye repent."  

Me:  "here, lets talk a minute.  you and the rest of you blessed elites, like Laban, might kill me on whim someday and there seems to be little I can do about that.  All I know is I have to work hard or else my family will eventually waste away.  You worry that the city will be destroyed but I'm barely getting by and might die tomorrow.  And yet, there you are in your lavish estate, with your fine stuff, apparently with enough time on your hands to come out on the street corner and yell at us because we are so bad.  And when we ask, what we did, you're like, "hundreds of years ago God made Israel wander around in the desert, therefore you must repent or God will have you killed".  You haven't given me any reason to believe this God.  You haven't even given me one thing I can do.  Repent?  I don't know what I did wrong.  What do I need to repent of?  

Lehi:  "Well god told me you are all evil and bad and will die unless you repent.  So repent.  It sounds to me like you are wicked and don't hear God and you like to look at pretty things and do things to entertain yourself.  You evil doer. Repent"

Me:  "I did.  I do each day.  I get upset and then I apologize.  I help my neighbor when I can.  I feed a stranger as he wanders in my area.  I look up to God.  I try.  I don't see him.  I don't hear him.  I'm not saying he's not there.  I'm saying, ok.  If he's there, great.  But I'm still busy trying to live and exist.  Trying to appreciate others and all of that."  

Lehi: " His judgements are just and you need to repent or die.  Your choice.  Destruction is coming and you can't do anything about it unless you repent."

Me: "ugh.  See ya.  I've got better things to do."

I suppose Laman and Lemuel tell us a bit about what was so bad about the people of Jerusalem.  They were quick to want to kill, I guess.  The people apparently wanted Lehi dead.  I wonder what that'd be like--to live in a society where people didn't like something so they decided to kill.  Then again, that was the message they got--God will kill us if we do that which he doesn't like.  All of their scriptures gave them that message and then they had Lehi saying the same thing--repent of your evil or God will have you killed.  

What a mess.  

@stemelbow If you are honestly wondering what the people of Lehi's time did to reject the Lord, then I would suggest reading the Book of Jeremiah. We don't have the details of Lehi's preaching, but Jeremiah was his contemporary and Lehi would have had similar teachings. Items of concern to Jeremiah include worshiping idols, rejecting prophets, whoredoms, prostitution, adultery, hard-heartedness, stealing, murder, lying, seeking Baal, breaking God's covenant to be their people, turning the temple into a den of robbers, etc.

All of the above are specific sins that I pulled from just the first 7 chapters of Jeremiah. He lists out in pretty good detail lots and lots of sins at the time thoughout his book.

I am certain that not all people were doing these sins. But the leaders of the people and of the church seemed to be and they were leading the rest of the nation down the road to ruin (or at least to becoming like Babylon, as opposed to a peculiar unique people - so why not let them be integrated 100% into Babylon?). I am guessing that a lot of people like you or me were doing their best to live good lives according to the dictates of their conscience. Unfortunately for those few, the wicked far outnumbered them and the children of those trying to do righteous were getting sucked into it.

You might be surprised. If you had lived in Lehi's time, you actually might have agreed with a lot of what he was saying and shared similar concerns. If in the park down the street of your peaceful home they had set up statues of Baal and were committing whoredoms in front of the statue, maybe you would have sided with Lehi and Jeremiah.

Also, some people in Jerusalem during Lehi & Jeremiah's time that weren't caught up in the sin may have been guilty of apathy. If they were okay with others building Baal's grove of whoredoms down the street because 'to each their own' or if they disagreed with it but were scared to speak up to stop it because they would be unpopular, then they were guilty by association. It's like all the folks in WWII who didn't stand up to Naziism because they were just living their lives and trying to do good. It's tough, but I am starting to be more and more convinced that God wants us to stand up for what we believe is morally right, even if it is unpopular and even though we will be mocked mercilessly for it, and people will hate us for it. I think it's impressive Lehi had the conviction to stand and be made fun of for saying, "It's not right that we are doing these sins." And he and his posterity were blessed because he was willing to stand up for righteousness (and then he was willing to walk away from his "lavish estate, with your fine stuff" to wander for years as a poor, homeless vagabond in the desert - that is dedication in standing up for one's beliefs).

 

PS - It is great you are reading the BoM! When you find positive insights or good things in there, I think you should mention them on the board. I for one would love to hear something positive you find in your readings

Edited by Anonymous Mormon
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5 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

@stemelbow If you are honestly wondering what the people of Lehi's time did to reject the Lord, then I would suggest reading the Book of Jeremiah. We don't have the details of Lehi's preaching, but Jeremiah was his contemporary and Lehi would have had similar teachings. Items of concern to Jeremiah include worshiping idols, rejecting prophets, whoredoms, prostitution, adultery, hard-heartedness, stealing, murder, lying, seeking Baal, breaking God's covenant to be their people, turning the temple into a den of robbers, etc.

All of the above are specific sins that I pulled from just the first 7 chapters of Jeremiah. He lists out in pretty good detail lots and lots of sins at the time thoughout his book.

I am certain that not all people were doing these sins. But the leaders of the people and of the church seemed to be and they were leading the rest of the nation down the road to ruin (or at least to becoming like Babylon, as opposed to a peculiar unique people - so why not let them be integrated 100% into Babylon?). I am guessing that a lot of people like you or me were doing their best to live good lives according to the dictates of their conscience. Unfortunately for those few, the wicked far outnumbered them and the children of those trying to do righteous were getting sucked into it.

You might be surprised. If you had lived in Lehi's time, you actually might have agreed with a lot of what he was saying and shared similar concerns. If in the park down the street of your peaceful home they had set up statues of Baal and were committing whoredoms in front of the statue, maybe you would have sided with Lehi and Jeremiah.

Also, some people in Jerusalem during Lehi & Jeremiah's time that weren't caught up in the sin may have been guilty of apathy. If they were okay with others building Baal's grove of whoredoms down the street because 'to each their own' or if they disagreed with it but were scared to speak up to stop it because they would be unpopular, then they were guilty by association. It's like all the folks in WWII who didn't stand up to Naziism because they were just living their lives and trying to do good. It's tough, but I am starting to be more and more convinced that God wants us to stand up for what we believe is morally right, even if it is unpopular and even though we will be mocked mercilessly for it, and people will hate us for it. I think it's impressive Lehi had the conviction to stand and be made fun of for saying, "It's not right that we are doing these sins." And he and his posterity were blessed because he was willing to stand up for righteousness (and then he was willing to walk away from his "lavish estate, with your fine stuff" to wander for years as a poor, homeless vagabond in the desert - that is dedication in standing up for one's beliefs).

 

PS - It is great you are reading the BoM! When you find positive insights or good things in there, I think you should mention them on the board. I for one would love to hear something positive you find in your readings

Thanks for the response.  I do remember opening up 1 Ne and Jeremiah to show when the book of MOrmon took place.  The issue I guess that gets raised in my head as per reading this first part of Nephi for perhaps the 100th time is the sins condemned on Jerusalem as mentioned in Jeremiah are common to groups of people throughout time, or at least, as it were, someone amongst any group of people will be found doing at least one of the things mentioned, and quite often all of these sins were done amongst most nations. Truly though, it seems to me, most people amongst any group often find themselves wondering what all the fuss of needing to repent is.  Did the people really do anything wrong?  Was it elites like Laban that were so bad, and was not Lehi and fam closer in the minds of the common man more like Laban than he was like the masses whom he apparently was yelping at?  

I don't really intend to read the whole book again.  I think I've been through it near 20 times from end to end, or back to front for funsies.  I just happened to be at one of my daugher's dance classes waiting for her and saw my gospel library app and read for a few.  It might be in this thread, but I did mention the main positives I recall from the whole 500 plus page book were Abinadi, king Benjamin's speech and the sons of Helaman.  But, even though I've read it so many times, I haven't for a couple of years.  I suppose if I went through it page by page I'd be able to eek out a few more things.  

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This is interesting, I wonder if the church will let up on the tithing talks or at least quote a prophet in context, note Pres. Lorenzo's quote about paying only if you have the means to pay. And also in the article, the quote about taking care of your family first before tithing. 

https://www.mormonstories.org/truth-claims/mormon-doctrine/tithing/

Quotes from the article:

In an 1899 Conference talk, President Lorenzo Snow said “…I plead with you in the name of the Lord, and I pray that every man, woman and child who has means shall pay one tenth of their income as a tithing…” The Church later altered Snow’s revelation, removing the essential words “who has the means,” commanding all to pay, even those who struggle to provide basic food, utilities and health to their families. The Church’s belief in a transactional, material prosperity underpins this doctrine.

The Apostle Orson Hyde wrote, “If it requires all man can earn to support himself and his family, he is not tithed at all. The celestial law does not take the mother’s and children’s bread, neither ought else which they really need for their comfort. The poor that have not of this world’s good to spare, but serve and honor God according to the best of their abilities in every other way, shall have a celestial crown in the Eternal Kingdom of our Father” (The Millenial Star, 184).

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I have never had a problem paying tithing. Until I my bro-in-law who works for church security began bragging about the new security training facility that the church is building complete with 12 rifle and 12 handgun ranges and "force-on-force" training areas. For some reason this absolutely infuriated me. I am not allowed to carry a firearm into church to protect my family but the leaders security gets a state-of-the-art training facility? My daughter would love to take gymnastics but our finances didn't allow it. Until last week when I felt that my daughters happiness means more to me than an LDS firearms academy.

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1 hour ago, Vedrfolnyr said:

I have never had a problem paying tithing. Until I my bro-in-law who works for church security began bragging about the new security training facility that the church is building complete with 12 rifle and 12 handgun ranges and "force-on-force" training areas. For some reason this absolutely infuriated me. I am not allowed to carry a firearm into church to protect my family but the leaders security gets a state-of-the-art training facility? My daughter would love to take gymnastics but our finances didn't allow it. Until last week when I felt that my daughters happiness means more to me than an LDS firearms academy.

If that is a stumper, I hope you don't look at the conference center sets for the Christmas program and so much more. The training area isn't being chucked. I did see this very briefly on the news  but nothing else. I wonder why the security is being trained like this. Does the church really believe we are going to be in that much danger? How are they going to protect all of us, I guess just those that are near temples etc.

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On 3/25/2019 at 8:07 AM, SouthernMo said:

 that God loves obedience and worship.  Even if that idea has scriptural backing, it makes no sense to me in the context of a god who loves me.

How does burning a sacrifice help me or anyone?  Specifically?  If the answer stops at “obedience” you have lost me because the principle becomes a benefit for God, nor his children.  Alternatively, the lesson to be obedient for obedience’s sake is lost on me as well. 

My apologies if this was referenced already.  Someone posted it in another conversation I am watching and I was reminded of your comment, SoMo.

Quote

Our Heavenly Father’s goal in parenting is not to have His children do what is right; it is to have His children choose to do what is right and ultimately become like Him. If He simply wanted us to be obedient, He would use immediate rewards and punishments to influence our behaviors.

But God is not interested in His children just becoming trained and obedient “pets” who will not chew on His slippers in the celestial living room. No, God wants His children to grow up spiritually and join Him in the family business

 

Quote

God’s plan includes directions for us, referred to in the scriptures as commandments. These commandments are neither a whimsical set nor an arbitrary collection of imposed rules meant only to train us to be obedient. They are linked to our developing the attributes of godliness, returning to our Heavenly Father, and receiving enduring joy.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/choose-you-this-day?lang=eng

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I love Elder Renlund's Oct talk.  I find it very positive and proactive.

Need to post this part too.

Quote

Indeed, God desires, expects, and directs that each of His children choose for himself or herself. He will not force us. Through the gift of agency, God permits His children “to act for themselves and not to be acted upon.”18Agency allows us to choose to get on the path, or not. It allows us to get off, or not. Just as we cannot be forced to obey, we cannot be forced to disobey. No one can, without our cooperation, take us off the path. (Now, this is not to be confused with those whose agency is violated. They are not off the path; they are victims. They receive God’s understanding, love, and compassion.)

But when we get off the path, God is saddened because He knows that this eventually, but invariably, leads to diminished happiness and forfeited blessings. In the scriptures, getting off the path is referred to as sin, and the resultant decrease in happiness and forfeited blessings is called punishment. In this sense, God is not punishing us; punishment is a consequence of our own choices, not His.

When we discover that we are off the path, we can stay off, or because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, we can choose to reverse our steps and get back on. In the scriptures, the process of deciding to change and return to the path is referred to as repentance. Failure to repent means that we choose to disqualify ourselves from the blessings God desires to give. If we are “not willing to enjoy that which [we] might have received,” we will “return … to [our] own place, to enjoy that which [we] are willing to receive”19—our choice, not God’s.

No matter how long we have been off the path or how far away we have wandered, the moment we decide to change, God helps us return.20 From God’s perspective, through sincere repentance and pressing forward with a steadfastness in Christ, once back on the path, it will be as if we were never off.21 The Savior pays for our sins and frees us from the looming decrease in happiness and blessings. This is referred to in the scriptures as forgiveness. After baptism, all members slip off the path—some of us even dive off. Therefore, exercising faith in Jesus Christ, repenting, receiving help from Him, and being forgiven are not onetime events but lifelong processes, processes that are repetitive and iterative. This is how we “endure to the end.”22

We need to choose whom we will serve.23 The magnitude of our eternal happiness depends on choosing the living God and joining Him in His work. As we strive to “do the next bit” on our own, we practice using our agency correctly. As two former Relief Society General Presidents said, we should not be “babies that need petting and correction all the time.”24 No, God wants us to become mature adults and govern ourselves.

Choosing to follow the Father’s plan is the only way we can become inheritors in His kingdom; only then can He trust us to not even ask for that which is contrary to His will.25 But we need to remember that “there’s no one so hard to teach as the child who knows everything.” So we need to be willing to be tutored in the Lord’s ways by the Lord and His servants. We can trust that we are beloved children of Heavenly Parents26 and worth “bothering about” and be assured that “on our own” will never mean “alone.”

 

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Posted (edited)
On 4/8/2019 at 7:36 AM, Vedrfolnyr said:

the leaders security gets a state-of-the-art training facility? 

Not just leaders:

Quote

Church spokesman Eric Hawkins confirmed the new training center was under consideration but said that no final construction plans had been approved.

He said the longstanding mission of the Church Security Department — protecting church leaders, employees and the millions of worshippers visiting downtown Salt Lake City’s Temple Square and other church venues worldwide — “requires frequent training,” calling for specialized space and equipment....

Jobs posted on the church website, lds.org, for employment in the security department suggest its primary duty is “to promote a safe and peaceful environment in which the mission of the church may be accomplished.” This includes ensuring “a tranquil environment for the general authorities, employees, visitors and patrons.”

Officers, according to job listings, are asked to maintain “a calm and professional manner while responding to a variety of security-related situations such as fire, intrusion and panic alarms, disruptive or problem individuals, unauthorized entry, bomb threats, violence in the workplace issues, dealing with mental subjects or unruly individuals, natural disasters, etc.”

Job requirements also include “temple worthiness,” meaning compliance with church tenets as verified by an interview with local lay leaders.

Hawkins, in his statement to The Tribune, said the role of church security “has always been very different from that of law enforcement,” focused on what he called “de-escalation and light-touch training.”

“In the event of an emergency,” Hawkins said, "church security contacts fire, police and other emergency response agencies and supports them in their role.”

 

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/04/02/lds-church-planning-new/

Also appears they haven't decided whether they are going to try to build it since the city hasn't heard anything yet in terms of building applications.

Edited by Calm

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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

a31V16FbHhJmHdmA1Qwq4H-dWQtRgbzg3r0vvvUDxNk.png?auto=webp&s=7e9531b9937229e8466822cb04d7fa25a22d0eb1

 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

a31V16FbHhJmHdmA1Qwq4H-dWQtRgbzg3r0vvvUDxNk.png?auto=webp&s=7e9531b9937229e8466822cb04d7fa25a22d0eb1

 

As a church critic, I find discussions like this misguided. Yes I believe that churches should have to be as open with their books as other tax exempt organizations. Comparing charitable donations to investments is misguided though. The church (along with other major institutions like say Harvard) has a sizable endowment. Rather than stuffing the cash under the mattress, organizations tend to invest their endowments so that they can make money off investments to further institutional goals. Is investing in an office building better or worse than other investments is a valid question. How much of the church’s operating budget goes to humanitarian projects vs funding temples or BYU is also a valid question. But comparing the amount that the church invests in real estate to its humanitarian spending is a category error. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

As a church critic, I find discussions like this misguided. Yes I believe that churches should have to be as open with their books as other tax exempt organizations. Comparing charitable donations to investments is misguided though. The church (along with other major institutions like say Harvard) has a sizable endowment. Rather than stuffing the cash under the mattress, organizations tend to invest their endowments so that they can make money off investments to further institutional goals. Is investing in an office building better or worse than other investments is a valid question. How much of the church’s operating budget goes to humanitarian projects vs funding temples or BYU is also a valid question. But comparing the amount that the church invests in real estate to its humanitarian spending is a category error. 

Well that really wasn't what I was addressing. Two things, more openness and what happens to original quotes on tithing such as pay on increase after paying for essentials and no longer paying when the church has enough. I'm talking over 60 billion enough! And my husband refuses to pay tithing anymore, nor do I....long story, so the only thing I have in the game is helping the poorest among us even the wealthy. But I know people feel good when they pay it. 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_wealthiest_organizations

The church needs to be open with it's records. According to D. Michael Quinn, the church took in 30 billion in tithing in 2010. The church is the wealthiest church, with less membership. It asks a lot of it's members, in monies. And I know they do bring wealth from the corporate side. But wasn't there an early prophet that once said that when the church had more than enough tithing it would no longer be required? Wish I had the quote. 

Here is an article in the Trib that is interesting, and I have worked at some of these schools that are collecting money for Kenya, and not asking for Kenya to pay them. 

a31V16FbHhJmHdmA1Qwq4H-dWQtRgbzg3r0vvvUDxNk.png?auto=webp&s=7e9531b9937229e8466822cb04d7fa25a22d0eb1

 

For pete's sake. Tithing isn't for charitable giving.  This complaint is completely without merit.

You want to donate to societal charities then do it.  That's not what tithing is for.

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