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10THAmendment

I'm beginning to have a tithing problem, only not in the traditional sense

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2 hours ago, member10_1 said:

I think you’re taking for granted the diversity of values and perspectives that exist, even within otherwise homogeneous groups. Understanding “the point” is not the same as agreeing that the “the point” is a sufficient justification for doing something. 

 

Taking the diversity of values and perspectives for granted?  I don't think that's what you mean.  Taking something for granted means to assume that something is true without questioning it.  At least that's one of the meanings.  What you seem to mean is the opposite: that I am disregarding the diversity.

But I do understand the diversity that exists.  The diversity is what I am complaining about.  Is there a diversity of opinion as to the law of gravity? No, because all those who disregard it fell off one cliff or another thousands of years ago.  The diversity as far as tithing is concerned is much the same thing, except that it isn't a physical law.  It's actually just as simple, however.  The law of tithing talks about 10%.  And it's paid to the Lord -- but since the Lord isn't here, this means that it should go to a representative of the Lord, one that the payer recognizes as such.  So a Catholic pays it to the parish priest.  A Protestant pays it to the minister.  A Latter-day Saint pays it to the bishop or branch president.  A person without a church pays it to a convenient religious organization of his or her choice.

It's extremely basic.  Those who don't believe it's a law can be excused from it.  They aren't actually part of the diversity because it doesn't affect them.  The diversity is that some who theoretically believe in it have decided that they are somehow the administrators of it.  So they want to decide how it is to be disbursed.  That's not tithing.  I'm not saying that they shouldn't donate to charity.  But giving ten percent of your income to a diverse set of charities isn't tithing.  

You may disagree, and that's perfectly OK of course.

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15 hours ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Even when I was a member, I’d cringe every time I heard God’s order of genocide being used to justify obedience. As a former member, it’s even worse. 

I believe scriptures that say God did this, these atrocitries, are not true. Just man scaring people to be good, or using the name of God in vain. 

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3 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Well, yes.  That wasn't the point I was trying to reach, however.  I was trying for a more worldly view while remaining at least notionally sarcastic.

Why doesn't it ever occur to people that God could have caused Adolf Hitler to suffer crib death?  That one little death would have saved so many others.  The salient point is this: life is not intended to be a bed of rose petals. Life must be hard, or else God's purposes will not come to pass.  Removing those who will cause much wickedness (and he knows who will do it), will break the test.  Too many people mistake this life for the ultimate destination, when it is a destructive testing ground whose intent is to try us to see whether we can be added upon and rise to the level that God has risen to.  Too many people miss the point entirely.  I suppose we all do so from time to time, however.

I am just in a nitpicky mood, I guess.  I believe I got the point you were making, but had to comment.  :)

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10 hours ago, stemelbow said:

Me: "ugh.  See ya.  I've got better things to do."

I suppose Laman and Lemuel tell us a bit about what was so bad about the people of Jerusalem.  They were quick to want to kill, I guess.  The people apparently wanted Lehi dead.  I wonder what that'd be like--to live in a society where people didn't like something so they decided to kill.  Then again, that was the message they got--God will kill us if we do that which he doesn't like.  All of their scriptures gave them that message and then they had Lehi saying the same thing--repent of your evil or God will have you killed.  

What a mess.  

You miss the point that under the Mosaic law the penalty of death was a semblance of the spiritual death that sin brings. Maybe you will understand in a few years. The call to repentance is to save us from a far worse death. Otherwise we cannot return to God. We get thrust out. 

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12 hours ago, RevTestament said:

You miss the point that under the Mosaic law the penalty of death was a semblance of the spiritual death that sin brings. Maybe you will understand in a few years. The call to repentance is to save us from a far worse death. Otherwise we cannot return to God. We get thrust out. 

Yes, you sound about like what Lehi probably sounded like amongst the Jerusalemites.  What did I do that was wrong?  

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One thing to keep in mind is the Church has these local welfare operations, so every two weeks needy people here and elsewhere can do a food order and then do the pick up on the saturday. Here they must spend several grand on food every two weeks, so that's money coming from somewhere and i'm quite sure we aren't the only stake that does this

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On 3/26/2019 at 1:24 AM, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Even when I was a member, I’d cringe every time I heard God’s order of genocide being used to justify obedience. As a former member, it’s even worse. 

There are commandments and scripture you are supposed to cringe at. Abraham sacrificing Isaac. Jesus telling his followers they must be willing to hate their families for his sake. An old story about that say eleven of the apostles were horrified. Iscariot loved it. If you can read the Book of Mormon or the D&C or the Bible without getting knocked down regularly by its demands I would contend you are not reading them seriously enough.

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On 3/27/2019 at 6:50 AM, stemelbow said:

Yes, you sound about like what Lehi probably sounded like amongst the Jerusalemites.  What did I do that was wrong?  

If I sound like a servant of God, maybe perhaps that is what I am. Yeah, and I do seem to be heard about like what the Jews heard.  No one heads warnings, because they are numb to them. It is not a warning out of intimidation or fear though. It is a warning out of love to avoid not being able to enter paradise. There are rules to entering paradise. Repentance is a pretty easy bar. That is why Christ says His yoke is easy. My yoke is hard, but I have taken it upon  myself - I do not mean to discourage others from repentance. Following Christ is not so bad. It is simple and easy. If you have no selfish tendencies to repent of then, I assume you are ready, and God will be pleased with you. Perhaps you are better than Paul who admitted he was in a constant struggle with the natural man. May God bless you on your journey Stemelbow. He still loves you.

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5 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

since the church has ZERO public accounting for what they do with the donations, how do I know that my tithing is going to charity or a good cause?  could I give my 10% directly to the homeless?  would that count in God's eyes?  my worry is then I can't get a temple recommend, and can't go to heaven?  I know the Bible says we are saved through our faith in Jesus Christ alone, but as a mormon i'm not sure we believe in the bible? 

 

I have 100% faith in Jesus Christ and his sacrifice for us; I live a good life, pray every day crying my eyes out to confess I'm guilty of being a sinner, and give myself to him, accept his gift of salvation by asking for forgiveness of my sins.   All this in the churches eyes won't get me to heaven, cause I gave my 10% to the needy? help?  I'm including dozens of verses from the bible to support this, I don't see any verses that say before we can be baptized we have to convince a white chubby middle age bishop that I am "worthy" of Jesus's sacrifice; and then I have to pay tithing to get a temple recommend again by another white chubby middle aged stake president, then do secret rituals that don't resemble anything in the bible, and yes the bible discusses exactly what they did in the temples of old, nothing at all similar to what the mormons do, theirs "secrets" are all the same as the freemasons, who admit they worship Lucifer, makes you think? 

 

well it won't make mormons think, they are too brainwashed and discouraged from thinking (I'm 7th generation mormon so I pretty familiar), but I pray it will help a couple open their eyes to this great deception they are swallowing hook like and sinker.  Satan is described as being the great deceiver, but he's probably not smart enough to deceive the mormons right?  give me a break, grow up, use your intelligence and discernment that God blessed you with, or you will have to explain it to him eventually, so start thinking of loopholes and good excuses while you have time, haha.

Titus 3:5 - Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

Ephesians 2:8-9 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:  (Read More...)

Romans 10:9 - That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Ephesians 2:8 - For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:

Matthew 7:21 - Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

John 14:6 - Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Acts 4:12 - Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.

John 6:44 - No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

John 15:1-27 - I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.   (Read More...)

Acts 16:30-33 - And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?   (Read More...)

Psalms 3:8 - Salvation [belongeth] unto the LORD: thy blessing [is] upon thy people. Selah.

Psalms 37:39 - But the salvation of the righteous [is] of the LORD: [he is] their strength in the time of trouble.

Psalms 62:1 - (To the chief Musician, to Jeduthun, A Psalm of David.) Truly my soul waiteth upon God: from him [cometh] my salvation.

Acts 28:28 - Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and [that] they will hear it.

Romans 6:14 - For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace.

John 3:16-18 - For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.   (Read More...)

Psalms 60:5 - That thy beloved may be delivered; save [with] thy right hand, and hear me.

Galatians 2:21 - I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness [come] by the law, then Christ is dead in vain.

John 3:17-21 - For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:1-47 - And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place.   (Read More...)

Acts 2:36-41 - Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly, that God hath made that same Jesus, whom ye have crucified, both Lord and Christ.   (Read More...) 

Curious, have you looked into the current masons? They really strive to do good in the world. Think Lion's clubs etc. In my studies I read that Satanists adopted Freemasonry, pretty sure. I'm at work so can't link, no time, but try googling it.

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10 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

to get a temple recommend again by another white chubby middle aged stake president,

My stake president runs marathons. Does that mean the temple recommends he issues are invalid?

Asking for a friend.

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10 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

CA Steve, these church leaders, whether chubby, fat, smart, dumb, etc, are judging us; these people determine directly if you go to mormon heaven or not.  If they don't like you, or don't think you are sincere, etc, they can deny you a recommend, which according to your doctrine, this denies you heaven!!!!  the bible says that this is between you and Jesus Christ ALONE, no man on this earth can decide if you go to heaven or hell.  But it really is the case in the mormon church, mormon leaders decide who gets to go to heaven, and there have been many many many many bishops and stake presidents that have been excommunicated for every sin you can mention . So the people that they denied recommends are going to hell?  because a evil man that got kicked out of the church decided who got to go to the temple?  give me a break.  I refuse to follow a church with such a extremely trouble past, they will not be deciding if I go to heaven, I put my full trust in Jesus Christ, not a marathon running anybody. 

and Tacenda; so you think giving money and doing charity work makes you a good organization?  the catholic church does way more charity work than the mormons or freemasons, yet your prophet Mckoncie called them "the most abominable above all other churches" but I guess he was wrong, since they do a TON of charity and good works. Grow up, be an adult Tacenda

"[Under the heading, “Church of the Devil,” Apostle Bruce R. McConkie lists:] “The Roman Catholic Church specifically—singled out, set apart, described, and designated as being ‘most abominable above all other churches’ (I Ne. 13:5)” (Mormon Doctrine, 1958, 129)."

Wow, I picture the rest of the board giggling right now. You have me peg'd wrong. But was once where you are now. Are you LDS?

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

I was 7th generation mormon, did a mission in germany, went to byu; even painted my face blue at byu games; all my family is LDS.  But I couldn't swallow the "koolaid" they are serving, had to get out, horrible aftertaste

Welcome! That said, you may want to tone it down a bit. There are places to vent online about the Mormon “koolaid” but not here. From one exmo to another, this forum is paid for and hosted by faithful members of the church, is built on mutually respectful dialogue, and your insulting rhetoric will get you banned pretty quick. 

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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4 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

I was 7th generation mormon, did a mission in germany, went to byu; even painted my face blue at byu games; all my family is LDS.  But I couldn't swallow the "koolaid" they are serving, had to get out, horrible aftertaste

Then why are you here?

 I converted from Judaism.  I don’t spend my time on Jewish boards, calling people names and denigrating their beliefs. Not that I would even want to do that, but I have better things to do with my time. 

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4 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Welcome! That said, you may want to tone it down a bit. There are places to vent online about the Mormon “koolaid” but not here. From one exmo to another, this forum is paid for and hosted by faithful members of the church, is built on mutually respectful dialogue, and your insulting rhetoric will get you banned pretty quick. 

Agree, I hope the poster tones it down too. And we can get to the bottom of the krux of the problem. Since in the bible there are many problems as well. Then what do we have left? I guess Buddhism, Atheism or Judesim. Or just being good people and living by our moral compasses and doing no harm.... 

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41 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

these people determine directly if you go to mormon heaven or not.

First, there are many heavens.  Not all require temple ordinances.

Second, denying a person a temple recommend doesn't disqualify them from the highest heaven.  God is the ultimate judge.  If a bishop or stake president was wrong, then proxy work will be done for the person and God will have the final say. 

Third, I don't like your combative tone.  You are not convincing anyone with it. Take a breath, calm down, do some stretching, go run around, beat-up a pillow, do whatever you need to do to get it out of your system.  When you are ready to treat us with brotherly kindness, to where I get the sense that you actually give a damn about me as a person and as a sinner (the most vile kind of sinner - a Mormon!!!) who is in need of your saving message, then I might be willing to consider what you have to say.

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20 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

funny how the mormons say horrible things about every other church out there... they send 18 year olds with no life experience or wisdom out to preach to the world that THEY are all wrong!!! and following Satan!.  But when somebody confronts mormons with their satanic ties, and horrible history, and the real truth about mormons, they get all defensive and butt hurt.  they all of a sudden have a problem with that?  ultimate example of the pot calling the kettle black.  I don't respect hypocrites, 

The difference is that we actually care about people.  We build them up, we don't tear them do as you do. Also, we don't believe that Satan is their master.  there are very few people I have ever met where I felt that. 

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4 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

your'e right Pogi, my combative tone isn't helping, I just get kinda get frustrated, I was raised Mormon, and I know how strong a grip they can get on people.  I'm just trying to open eyes, and being combative isn't the right way to go.  I want to share the truth about Jesus Christ.  I have found peace and love through Jesus Christ alone, and I truly wish to share this Joy in salvation.  He is the only way to heaven, through faith in him, accepting his atonement, which is a gift, we can't earn it, just have to accept him and be born again.  I just disagree strongly with mormon doctrine, for example, you said God would judge us?  but Brigham young kind of contradicted that, see his quote below.  He says Joseph Smith will judge us?  kinda goes against the bible saying God and Jesus will judge us?  how do you make sense of this quote?

“No man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith…every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, Junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are… [Joseph Smith] reigns there as supreme a being in his sphere, capacity, and calling, as God does in heaven. Many will exclaim”Oh,that is very disagreeable!…But it is true.”LDS PROPHET Brigham Young,JoD, vol.7,p.289-91.

Joseph is not the ultimate/final judge.  There will be several, but ultimately God will have the final say.

Quote

And Jesus said unto them, Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

Matt 19:28

 

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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

funny to me how you couldn't defend that Brigham Young quote Pogi?  anybody else care to help?  if you really cared about me you'd point out where I was wrong, help me find my way back?  but i'm still waiting for somebody to defend any of what i've written, the truth hurts... do some research, you don't have to prove me wrong, but you may want to prove it all wrong for yourself, the facts are all out there.  Make up your own mind, everything I've typed in my posts have included references

First, I don't need to defend Brigham's quote.  The church doesn't stand or fall on that quote. Brigham said lots of things I disagree with.

Second, I do believe that Joseph will be a judge,but not THE judge.  Brigham never claimed that he would be THE judge.  You are misreading brother Brigham.  Perhaps it is you who needs to do some research about what we believe in terms of final judgment.  There is plentiful material, cherry picking one quote out of context isn't helpful. 

Matt 19:28 sets up the precedent for other judges besides God. Can you deny it?

Edited by pogi
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After reading parts of this thread, I am so glad that I am neither/nor or non with open thought and core moral values.  Yeah...I don't answer to anyone but My Lord.  😄

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Just now, SMD1976 said:

you see Pogi, you aren't allowed to disagree Brigham Young, or with anything any of your prophets say, you aren't really a mormon then, and i'm thrilled about that, welcome to the truth!!! your church preaches they are true prophets, and can't mislead you, and they talk for God.  So when you disagree with them, you are calling them false prophets, youre faith is kind of falling apart here?

My faith is not falling apart, but your argument is.

You clearly don't understand Mormonism as well as you think you do.

https://www.fairmormon.org/answers/Mormonism_and_doctrine/Prophets_are_not_infallible

 

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Just now, SMD1976 said:

they aren't really prophets if they aren't infallible?  how do you know when they are saying something you can believe versus something you can't believe then?  this is really confusing me, you cherry pick what your prophets say?  did you just admit that?

I follow the Holy Spirit as Brigham recommended:

"I am more afraid that this people have so much confidence in their leaders that they will not inquire for themselves of God whether they are led by Him. I am fearful they settle down in a state of blind self-security, trusting their eternal destiny in the hands of their leaders with a reckless confidence that in itself would thwart the purposes of God in their salvation, and weaken that influence they could give to their leaders, did they know for themselves, by the revelations of Jesus, that they are led in the right way."

Yes, I fully admit that I am a cafeteria Mormon.  Anyone who thinks they are not is kidding themselves.

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I love this board. I learn something everyday.

Today I have learned that I do not understand the Bible because I have a job and my stake president is not fat.

 

Who knew?

 

 

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On 3/23/2019 at 11:58 AM, 10THAmendment said:

Hey all,

Recently I have really started to struggle with the issue of tithing. Not as a fundamental principle of the Gospel, but as an administrative policy. The more skeptical I have become of the church and its leaders, the more I really don't want to give money to it or them. It has actually started to make me sick and have a really bad feeling each month. I would much rather donate 10% of my income to organizations that actually help people. 

The church is very disproportionate to other churches in how much of their resources they use for humanitarian aid. I don't like that the church is secret with their finances. I don't like that they build shopping malls. I don't like that they bring in tens of billions of dollars each year and only use $40 million or so for humanitarian aid. I don't like that the church lobbies governments to make policies that I vehemently disagree with. It feels more like I am donating to a political organization that goes against every core principle I believe in politically.

 

Thoughts?

Something many here stateside don't know, a lot of Europe gets 10%, in the case of Germany it's by law, even foreigners are subject to it.  If a foreigner works there, they do ask him if he's Christian, in the case of the Catholic Church they will actually go out of their way to find baptism records overseas.  Considering they're as good at keeping records as the LDS church, they do have some success finding records.  It gets better, the gov't actually collects the 10% in a tax, the German gov't gets a small cut.  Flip side is that's why the Catholic Church in Germany is not only the 2nd biggest employer in the country, they have all the extra income to spend on affordable education for poor children and rehab centers for drug addicts and the elderly, Bavaria has more than a few places like that. 

http://www.deutscher-orden.de/

I'm with you, I am not cool with religion blowing money on shopping malls, I expect Christians to live up to their names sake, help the poor and live humble lives, something most here stateside won't do.  Big suprise why I didn't convert and don't bat an eye at the hatred their kind tends to get nowadays, they bring it on themselves.  Even the Bible mentions Karma via the golden rule and the principle of the harvest; what ye sow, so shall ye reap.

I'm a cultural christian at best so maybe I can give an opinion that's not clouded by typical American Christian bias, if you leave the church what do you stand to lose?  People here love to sue and screw each other over, if you keep going with this sooner or later you will anger your Bishop and others at your ward, if you make a clean break, what will it cost you?  I'll probably get flamed for this but oh well, I say if you're not comfortable with your situation bail.  Burning bridges is usually a bad thing, but the fire can not only light the way forward, it also keeps bad people and things from having access to you.

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47 minutes ago, pogi said:

First, I don't need to defend Brigham's quote.  The church doesn't stand or fall on that quote. Brigham said lots of things I disagree with.

Second, I do believe that Joseph will be a judge,but not THE judge.  Brigham never claimed that he would be THE judge.  You are misreading brother Brigham.  Perhaps it is you who needs to do some research about what we believe in terms of final judgment.  There is plentiful material, cherry picking one quote out of context isn't helpful. 

Matt 19:28 sets up the precedent for other judges besides God. Can you deny it?

This is why you're one of my favorite people here, you have knowledge but from what i've seen you dispense wisdom with kindness and prudence.  No bias, no judgement, just what you think is right and fair. 

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5 minutes ago, poptart said:

This is why you're one of my favorite people here, you have knowledge but from what i've seen you dispense wisdom with kindness and prudence.  No bias, no judgement, just what you think is right and fair. 

Thank you!

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