I'm beginning to have a tithing problem, only not in the traditional sense

[Calm]

What does love God with all your heart, soul, and mind mean to you, So Mo?  (Serious question, not a 'teaching moment'   )

Edited March 23, 2019 by Calm

[Stargazer]

41 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s hard for me to consider a $1.5B investment ‘minutiae’ - especially in the light of $40M for humanitarian use.

Its more accurate to talk about using tithing to help those in need as ‘minutiae.’

If it was not tithing funds, then what are you saying?  "Sell all our assets and give it all away in a big, impressive, showy blowout display!"  Is that what you want?  $1.5B handed out to the poor?  

"Minutiae" does not necessarily mean "tiny".  It's "details".  

[JLHPROF]

I don't believe how tithing is spent is any concern of mine.

I pay it because God commanded it.  That's where my concern starts and ends.

Also, tithing isn't meant for purely humanitarian purpose.

D&C 119:2 For the building of mine house, and for the laying of the foundation of Zion and for the priesthood, and for the debts of the Presidency of my Church.
3 And this shall be the beginning of the tithing of my people.

Edited March 24, 2019 by JLHPROF

[10THAmendment]

3 hours ago, strappinglad said:

Anciently offerings were taken to the temple and BURNED UP ! That sure was a way to clarify that the offering was the Lord's to use as He sees fit. Imagine doing that today with cold hard cash. May I suggest , 10th , that you investigate what it costs to just Maintain one regular  church building for a year. Heating, cooling, paper towels ,toilet paper, trash bags, vacuums , cleaning supplies, light bulbs, semi-annual deep cleaning, photo copies, chairs , etc. Now multiply that annual cost by the 1000's of buildings world wide. Next figure out the cost of land and construction for new chapels, the insurance costs for everything the church owns. Who do you think pays for the arson of the new stake building in Southern Utah recently ?What might the Church be spending on the Missionary program every year?  One might complain that the church does not release such info , but it would take a person  knowledgable in building maintenance costs only a few days to gather info for similar buildings  to estimate pretty close. Personally I'm happy the Church puts up office towers. They can use the profits to offset the needed buildings etc that the poor people in African , Asia, and some of the Americas can't fund. I used to pay several hundred dollars a year to a " building fund " . I don't have that line item to worry about anymore. I wonder why ??

The church easily brings in $20,000,000,000 a year in tithing alone. They have another $32,000,000,000 in investments. Missionaries pay what is it, $400 each month? So $300,000,000 a year from the missionaries to fund a big chunk of the missionary program. There is no way chapel maintenance and building a few temples a year costs anywhere near $20 billion dollars each year. The San Diego temple cost $24,000,000 when it was built, which is $42,000,000 in today's money. So the church could literally build 500 temples each year with their annual tithing income. I can't imagine where even half of $20B goes. It certainly doesn't go toward helping people. Why?

Edited March 24, 2019 by 10THAmendment

[SeekingUnderstanding]

4 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

The church easily brings in $20,000,000,000 a year in tithing alone. They have another $32,000,000,000 in investments. Missionaries pay what is it, $400 each month? So $300,000,000 a year from the missionaries to fund a big chunk of the missionary program. There is no way chapel maintenance and building a few temples a year costs anywhere near $20 billion dollars each year. The San Diego temple cost $24,000,000 when it was built, which is $42,000,000 in today's money. So the church could literally build 500 temples each year with their annual tithing income. I can't imagine where even half of $20B goes. It certainly doesn't go toward helping people. Why?

20B a year seems way too high to me. With 15 million members, say 6 million active, maybe 1.5 to 2 million families paying tithing? Hard to get to 20 B

[10THAmendment]

Just now, SeekingUnderstanding said:

20B a year seems way too high to me. With 15 million members, say 6 million active, maybe 1.5 to 2 million families paying tithing? Hard to get to 20 B

Fair enough, didn't take into account the family element. I used 25% of church membership as full tithe payers on $50,000/year. Either way, we're talking BILLIONS more dollars a year than there could possibly be expenses. 

[10THAmendment]

One of my main concerns is the secrecy of the church's finances. The church completely shut the door on transparency right around the time they started operating businesses and got heavily involved in the stock market. That is very suspicious. 

The way tithing and finances are handled in this church just doesn't ring true or right to me. Stockpiling cash and building malls just doesn't seem right for any church, let alone the church that claims it is the only true church.

[Avatar4321]

When you realize it's not your money, returning ten percent becomes easier.

Why do you think tithing is supposed to go mostly to humanitarian aid to begin with?

[Tacenda]

5 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

I get where you are coming from but I think I have to respectfully disagree with this mindset. I think giving either charity or directly to people in serious need can be, and maybe should be, considered a tithe to God. It seems consistent with the eternal truth, :Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto ME." Taken literally, giving to our brothers and sisters in need is the equivalent of giving it to God. 

I agree, but haven't a problem for people to tithe something to the church of their choice since churches need the $ to stay afloat. Now the LDS church is a different animal because of it's wealth, and yes they should give more to charity, IMHO. But maybe by them keeping the majority $, they'll bail out either our country or another cause out there. But the law of tithing has since been changed since the early days of the church, IMO. I remember reading on a link that it said to tithe those in the LDS church, unless they have no means to pay. But those words were taken out. And the words about increase have been changed to mean income. Those things bother me a bit. I'm sure I'm going to get a CFR so I better get my google fingers ready.

[Calm]

5 minutes ago, 10THAmendment said:

they started operating businesses 

They have been operating businesses since they got into Utah.  You heard of ZCMI?  First department store in US according to Wiki.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Calm

[10THAmendment]

3 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

When you realize it's not your money, returning ten percent becomes easier.

Why do you think tithing is supposed to go mostly to humanitarian aid to begin with?

I realize it's not my money. I'm a big believer in that. I'm just having major doubts that this is the only tithe possible. 

 

[let’s roll]

1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

What blessings are you talking about?  Windows of heaven?

I stopped paying my tithing months ago, and my life has not changed for the better or the worse.

I’d invite you to reflect on what motivated you to pay your tithing while you were doind so.  That may provide you some insight into why you haven’t perceived a change in your life since you stopped doing so

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

Is that what you want?  $1.5B handed out to the poor?  

No. I want individuals with excess to use their personal funds to help and serve those they know. Make a human connection of love.  That seems more in line with how Christ (I think) would serve than sending a check and patting myself on the back.

[SouthernMo]

36 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

The reason - you are not teachable and you have no desire to listen to the Spirit when he speaks to you. 

Perhaps. But I’d rather go to the hell where we “unteachables” go than worship a god whose primary goal is to exact obedience from his children.  That’s not a god I will worship.

[SouthernMo]

31 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

I’d invite you to reflect on what motivated you to pay your tithing while you were doind so.  That may provide you some insight into why you haven’t perceived a change in your life since you stopped doing so

What do you mean?  I don’t understand. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

sending a check and patting myself on the back.

If that is what some members are doing, they won't be receiving all the blessings attached to tithing because that is not how God is telling us to tithe.

Edited March 24, 2019 by Calm

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

What does love God with all your heart, soul, and mind mean to you, So Mo?  (Serious question, not a 'teaching moment'   )

To me, it means that we serve and love others. I don’t base my sense of love from or for others on an obedience scorecard.

[SouthernMo]

1 minute ago, Calm said:

If that is what some members are doing, they won't be receiving all the blessings attached to tithing because that is not how God is telling us to tithe.

I know I used to think this way. Maybe I was the only one.

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

god whose primary goal is to exact obedience from his children.  

God's work and glory (goal) is the immortality and eternal life of his children.  One of the ways he does this is to give us commandments.  Obedience benefits us much, much, much more than it benefits God...except in that it prepares his children to be able to be one with him, which likely brings him great joy.

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

To me, it means that we serve and love others. I don’t base my sense of love from or for others on an obedience scorecard.

Do you think your family feels love from you if you ignore them?

Do loving parents give their children chores and instructions and limits because they get off on being obeyed or because they believe if their children do those things, it will make them happier, better able to take care of themselves when necessary, healthier, etc?

Edited March 24, 2019 by Calm

[SouthernMo]

Just now, Calm said:

God's work and glory (goal) is the immortality and eternal life of his children.  One of the ways he does this is to give us commandments.  Obedience benefits us much, much, much more than it benefits God...except in that it prepares his children to be able to be one with him, which likely brings him great joy.

How does learning to be obedient help me?  I see the value of following divine teachings because they are good in and of themselves, but I do not see value in being obedient for obedience’s sake. Why would god do that?  Why would he test us just to see if we will obey?  I see no love in that kind of a god.

[SouthernMo]

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

Do you think your family feels love from you if you ignore them?

 

Ignorance is not the same as disobedience in my mind.  If my wife loves me, would she obey me?  Or vice versa?

[Calm]

6 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

I know I used to think this way. Maybe I was the only one.

Probably not the only one, but there are other ways to look at it, including being grateful to be in the situation that one has something to tithe or feeling love towards one's community and using tithing as one of the ways to express that love.

[SouthernMo]

1 hour ago, Stargazer said:

"Minutiae" does not necessarily mean "tiny".  It's "details".  

So are there any non-minutiae in how tithing is spent, or are you of the mind that it’s none of the laiety’s business how the money is spent, and that the point is we give and do not question?

[Calm]

4 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

How does learning to be obedient help me?  I see the value of following divine teachings because they are good in and of themselves, but I do not see value in being obedient for obedience’s sake. Why would god do that?  Why would he test us just to see if we will obey?  I see no love in that kind of a god.

Who is teaching obedience purely for obedience's sake?  I now it can come across that way at times because we are asked to take God's wisdom for us on faith.  My impression of most leaders is they don't see commandments as random rules where God is only testing us to see if we obey, but rather God knows that by being obedient we are serving others and God in ways we might not realize as well as developing our talents/skills/godly attributes.