Inspiring Video of LGBTQ Latter-day Saints

[california boy]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I've been watching American Idol and this guy is at the top of my list! I think you're going to like his audition. 😘

 

Thank you for posting that.  What a touching and painful song to hear.  I wish I could put my arms around him and tell him that I Know That My Redeemer Lives and that indeed, there is a place for him in heaven.  Trust God. 

[california boy]

50 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Cal, I think words are important. Though it is evident that we have a great deal in a common understanding of the Gospel of Jesus Christ, it is also evident that we will disagree on a few points. You stated that religion tries to make you ashamed for loving your partner - I take a degree of umbrage with this and wanted to make something things clear, at least in our communication with one another. If you have felt that I ever tried to cause you to be ashamed of your love for your partner, that has never been my intent or objective. To the contrary, I respect the love you have for others, including your partner. It is not hard to know where the conflict comes and we do not need to rehash the same thing over again.

What is vitally important in what you have stated (among others) - and what I firmly believe - is that we each must trust in the Lord with all our hearts, lean not unto our own understanding and in all ways acknowledge him and God will direct our paths. May we each hold to that and never let our faith falter in him. 

Thank you for those kind remarks.  It does mean a lot to hear you say them.  Honestly, I have never had a difficult time hearing from those that disagree with my point of view.  It took me a very very long time for me to deal with being gay and learning to trust God above all others.  Why would it be easy for others who do not even have to deal with being gay to understand my journey with God.

Yes I do see a lot of me in you and in every other person on this board that defends the Church at all costs.  I too find myself still defending the Church when those outside the Church attack some of it's beliefs, especially about some of the policies the Church have against the gay community.  I too undrestand that there are reasons and nuances that have brought those policies in existance.  Perhaps the Church will indeed, keep those policies in place forever.  And that is ok.  The Church does not have to be for everyone.  What is for everyone is the saving grace of Christ.  And that is more important than any policy.  And if there is no place in heaven for me and my partner, then I am also ok with that.  I have learned to trust my Redeemer.  I believe He has a place for me, somewhere.  And that is all that matters to me.  

"Look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not."

Edited March 26, 2019 by california boy

[pogi]

10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I've been watching American Idol and this guy is at the top of my list! I think you're going to like his audition. 😘

 

Wow!  What an amazing songwriter and intimate performer.  I'm sure that it resonated with so many young people who are struggling to find their place between their sexuality and their religion.   My heart goes out to them.  Thanks for sharing.  

[Storm Rider]

On 3/26/2019 at 2:10 AM, california boy said:

Thank you for those kind remarks.  It does mean a lot to hear you say them.  Honestly, I have never had a difficult time hearing from those that disagree with my point of view.  It took me a very very long time for me to deal with being gay and learning to trust God above all others.  Why would it be easy for others who do not even have to deal with being gay to understand my journey with God.

Yes I do see a lot of me in you and in every other person on this board that defends the Church at all costs.  I too find myself still defending the Church when those outside the Church attack some of it's beliefs, especially about some of the policies the Church have against the gay community.  I too undrestand that there are reasons and nuances that have brought those policies in existance.  Perhaps the Church will indeed, keep those policies in place forever.  And that is ok.  The Church does not have to be for everyone.  What is for everyone is the saving grace of Christ.  And that is more important than any policy.  And if there is no place in heaven for me and my partner, then I am also ok with that.  I have learned to trust my Redeemer.  I believe He has a place for me, somewhere.  And that is all that matters to me.  

"Look unto me in every thought, doubt not, fear not."

There are so many things that we do not understand. We don't understand the great tragedies of the world: the countless incidencies of genocide, the millions upon millions of those stricken with horrible health issues, those afflicted with severe mental illnesses, etc. Then there is simply being human and where that leads us. The one thing that counts for inestimable worth is that he who bled for us is also he who will judge us. He knows our hearts and he sees us as we truly are. As long as we strive to walk with an eye single to his glory then all will be well. His grace is sufficient for each of us. 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Storm Rider

[Daniel2]

On 3/25/2019 at 7:32 PM, kllindley said:

I imagine most do individually support the mission and ideals of North Star, but I can't say because they haven't said anything to that effect. They don't refer people there from any official Church website or publication. I think to state that the institution of the Church "supports" North Star is different from stating that they would agree with and support individuals efforts to live in harmony with the teachings of the Church.  

I know that some founders expressed that they did not want the institutional Church dictating or approving of every position or effort. They saw the need for a fairly inclusive approach even as they maintained their values and ideals. One example: way back in 2009 North Star included and supported individuals who identified as gay. Some people there expressed their own reasons for not taking on that identity, but they had no position on the subject. This was before the Church institutionally expressed the idea that identifying as gay was not necessarily a bad thing.  

As a further illustration, would you say the the Church supports this website? Why or why not?

Thanks for these additional thoughts and info; they have helped me better understand North Star. Ty Mansfield and I became acquainted online when we both lived on the east coast during his single days, before his book publication, and as I was going through my divorce around 2005. Back then, Ty and I had many chats about how we both identified as gay, even as he held a strong desire to live according to LDS ideals. Back then, he often said he believed he’d never marry a woman and expected to be celibate his whole life. As I moved further away from identifying with my previous Latter-day Saint identify, and when he moved back to Utah, our communication subsided and ultimately stopped. 

Due to our conversations together and knowing his openness to the concept of identifying as gay, it doesn’t surprise me that an organization he was instrumental in founding/co-founding included those who identify as gay. I recall Ty feeling that there was no incongruence between acknowledging his homosexuality (and in using the word gay) and being an active Latter-day Saint, with the understanding that the attraction itself was not sinful, only acting upon it would be (again and probably obviously, that was his position, not mine). 

I was appreciative that LDS leadership also began using the terminology of and acknowledging “gays and lesbians” around that time, too, and I’m grateful if North Star had any role in so-influencing the church. I recall my surprise (in a good way) when Michael Otterson used the term “gay” more than once in his 2010 response to the HRC:

Quote

Church Responds to HRC Petition: Statement on Same-Sex Attraction

12 October 2010 - Salt Lake City 

News Release

 

The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints issued the following statement through a spokesman following the delivery of a petition by the Human Rights Campaign (broadcast quality video (.mov) and audio(.mp3) is available for media use. A YouTube version can be viewed or embedded here) :

My name is Michael Otterson. I am here representing the leadership of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to address the matter of the petition presented today by the Human Rights Campaign. 

While we disagree with the Human Rights Campaign on many fundamentals, we also share some common ground. This past week we have all witnessed tragic deaths across the country as a result of bullying or intimidation of gay young men.  We join our voice with others in unreserved condemnation of acts of cruelty or attempts to belittle or mock any group or individual that is different – whether those differences arise from race, religion, mental challenges, social status, sexual orientation or for any other reason.  Such actions simply have no place in our society.

This Church has felt the bitter sting of persecution and marginalization early in our history, when we were too few in numbers to adequately protect ourselves and when society’s leaders often seemed disinclined to help.  Our parents, young adults, teens and children should therefore, of all people, be especially sensitive to the vulnerable in society and be willing to speak out against bullying or intimidation whenever it occurs, including unkindness toward those who are attracted to others of the same sex. This is particularly so in our own Latter-day Saint congregations. Each Latter-day Saint family and individual should carefully consider whether their attitudes and actions toward others properly reflect Jesus Christ’s second great commandment - to love one another.

As a church, our doctrinal position is clear: any sexual activity outside of marriage is wrong, and we define marriage as between a man and a woman. However, that should never, ever be used as justification for unkindness. Jesus Christ, whom we follow, was clear in His condemnation of sexual immorality, but never cruel.  His interest was always to lift the individual, never to tear down.

Further, while the Church is strongly on the record as opposing same-sex marriage, it has openly supported other rights for gays and lesbians such as protections in housing or employment.

The Church’s doctrine is based on love. We believe that our purpose in life is to learn, grow and develop, and that God’s unreserved love enables each of us to reach our potential. None of us is limited by our feelings or inclinations. Ultimately, we are free to act for ourselves.

The Church recognizes that those of its members who are attracted to others of the same sex experience deep emotional, social and physical feelings. The Church distinguishes between feelings or inclinations on the one hand and behavior on the other. It’s not a sin to have feelings, only in yielding to temptation.

There is no question that this is difficult, but Church leaders and members are available to help lift, support and encourage fellow members who wish to follow Church doctrine. Their struggle is our struggle. Those in the Church who are attracted to someone of the same sex but stay faithful to the Church’s teachings can be happy during this life and perform meaningful service in the Church. They can enjoy full fellowship with other Church members, including attending and serving in temples, and ultimately receive all the blessings afforded to those who live the commandments of God.

Obviously, some will disagree with us. We hope that any disagreement will be based on a full understanding of our position and not on distortion or selective interpretation. The Church will continue to speak out to ensure its position is accurately understood.

God’s universal fatherhood and love charges each of us with an innate and reverent acknowledgement of our shared human dignity.  We are to love one another. We are to treat each other with respect as brothers and sisters and fellow children of God, no matter how much we may differ from one another. 

We hope and firmly believe that within this community, and in others, kindness, persuasion and goodwill can prevail.

[Daniel2]

On 3/25/2019 at 7:32 PM, kllindley said:

As a further illustration, would you say the the Church supports this website? Why or why not?

I think previous generations of church leaders would have supported this website, but in answer to your question: No... in light of recent comments by many current LDS leaders, I think they don’t and wouldn’t support many of the type of discussions that we have here, even those that illustrate pro-LDS apologetic inquiry. The current administration is more along the lines of “research is not the answer/focus on the primary questions only” instead of “if we have not the truth, it ought to be harmed.” 

Edited March 27, 2019 by Daniel2

[Jeanne]

On 3/25/2019 at 11:48 PM, california boy said:

Thank you for posting that.  What a touching and painful song to hear.  I wish I could put my arms around him and tell him that I Know That My Redeemer Lives and that indeed, there is a place for him in heaven.  Trust God. 

Loved this.

[Navidad]

Beautiful song and people. Perhaps, the gay community within Mormonism won't accept me either, but as a faithful non-member, I am often marginalized and caricatured as well. I am me; not some straw person they seek to define me as. Thanks for sharing this wonderful video.

Edited March 28, 2019 by Navidad

[Tacenda]

Wanted to share, and noticed their use of SSA, instead of saying he was gay. Worry that this couple will go the route that the Josh and Lolly Weed did, by way of getting divorced later on. 

 

[Calm]

 

3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Wanted to share, and noticed their use of SSA, instead of saying he was gay. Worry that this couple will go the route that the Josh and Lolly Weed did, by way of getting divorced later on. 

 

Would you think it appropriate to speculate any other happy couple might divorce later down the road?  If both experienced only OSA, would you automatically worry they might go the route Tiger Woods' marriage did (or any other OSA marriage ending in divorce)?  Wouldn't it be better to be supportive of their choice to commit to each other? (And lest someone think I am a hypocrite, if someone chooses a ssm, I believe they should be encouraged to live faithfully together as everyone should live the Law as they understand it to the best of their ability and I assume those who choose ssm believe that is the Law).

Edited May 20, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

2 hours ago, Calm said:

 

Would you think it appropriate to speculate any other happy couple might divorce later down the road?  If both experienced only OSA, would you automatically worry they might go the route Tiger Woods' marriage did (or any other OSA marriage ending in divorce)?  Wouldn't it be better to be supportive of their choice to commit to each other? (And lest someone think I am a hypocrite, if someone chooses a ssm, I believe they should be encouraged to live faithfully together as everyone should live the Law as they understand it to the best of their ability and I assume those who choose ssm believe that is the Law).

I'm totally supportive. And once again, my negative speculations not helping. And I'm sure I probably know a male/female couple or two that the male is gay and they have had long lasting marriages. At least I've suspected it in a couple of neighbors and ward members, including my dentist. So I shouldn't be thinking their marriage wouldn't work. 

[phaedrus ut]

There are so many mixed messages from the church about the LGBT community.  For every nice act there is hurtful and harmful rhetoric.  It's like watching the happy social media posts of a friend you know is being beaten at home.  Yes there has been positive steps but the beatings haven't stopped.  

As Nina Simone said so well "You've got to learn to leave the table when love's no longer being served."  I understand for so many people this means disconnecting from an entire culture and support system.  I believe staying in a culture that considers your flawed, defective and inferior is harmful. 

Phaedrus 

[kllindley]

10 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

There are so many mixed messages from the church about the LGBT community.  For every nice act there is hurtful and harmful rhetoric.  It's like watching the happy social media posts of a friend you know is being beaten at home.  Yes there has been positive steps but the beatings haven't stopped.  

As Nina Simone said so well "You've got to learn to leave the table when love's no longer being served."  I understand for so many people this means disconnecting from an entire culture and support system.  I believe staying in a culture that considers your flawed, defective and inferior is harmful. 

Phaedrus 

Thank goodness the Church doesn't view any of God's children as flawed, detective, or inferior. I imagine I would have a hard time staying if they did. 

[phaedrus ut]

2 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Thank goodness the Church doesn't view any of God's children as flawed, detective, or inferior. I imagine I would have a hard time staying if they did. 

The present treatment of women and the LGBT community by the church is analogous to the treatment of blacks prior to 1978.  Back then people defended the church and said that black people were treated no differently and our beliefs weren't racist.  People who openly criticized the church's racist policies back then were brave and I believe people need to be willing to do the same now.  

Here is a easy question.  Can a gay man or a woman be a mission president? 

Phaedrus  

[kllindley]

3 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

The present treatment of women and the LGBT community by the church is analogous to the treatment of blacks prior to 1978.  Back then people defended the church and said that black people were treated no differently and our beliefs weren't racist.  People who openly criticized the church's racist policies back then were brave and I believe people need to be willing to do the same now.  

Here is a easy question.  Can a gay man or a woman be a mission president? 

Phaedrus  

Easy answer: under current policies, a woman can not be called as a mission president. A gay man absolutely can be. 

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

Can a gay man or a woman be a mission president? 

Sure to the first, not quite for the second.  I know of two men who identify as gay who are married to a woman and who in my opinion look like mission President material.

A woman who identified as gay and was married to a man could be called as mission matron or whatever the elders call her (probably Sister _______) alongside her husband,

(I may have misread the question...applying "gay" to both man and woman when rereading it looks like that wasn't meant)

Edited May 20, 2019 by Calm

[phaedrus ut]

3 minutes ago, Calm said:

Sure to the first, not quite for the second.  I know of two men who identify as gay who are married to a woman and who in my opinion look like mission President material.

 

4 minutes ago, kllindley said:

Easy answer: under current policies, a woman can not be called as a mission president. A gay man absolutely can be. 

So we know that anyone who has identified as gay or having such feelings will have their records annotated.  This has kept people from the lowest levels of leadership in the church, let alone the highest callings.  Second is your qualification that gay men married to women would be eligible. I have yet to see any such situation reach the level of bishop or branch president in leadership.  We know there were leaders in the past that lived lives as secretly gay but I haven't heard of any with the pretend marriage scenario you mention. 

In both scenarios women and the LGBT community are less than full equals in the church. 

Phaedrus 

[Calm]

1 minute ago, phaedrus ut said:

haven't heard of any with the pretend marriage scenario you mention. 

It is not a pretend marriage in the cases I know.  That is rather insulting to suggest, imo.

[Calm]

20 minutes ago, phaedrus ut said:

So we know that anyone who has identified as gay or having such feelings will have their records annotated.

No we don't.  The article you quote states the handbook requires annotations in the case of same sex sexual activity.  Local leaders may have interpreted it that way and annotated identification or feelings that way, but that is not policy from the article.  The article also says the practice is waning.

Edited May 21, 2019 by Calm

[kllindley]

2 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

 

So we know that anyone who has identified as gay or having such feelings will have their records annotated.  This has kept people from the lowest levels of leadership in the church, let alone the highest callings.  Second is your qualification that gay men married to women would be eligible. I have yet to see any such situation reach the level of bishop or branch president in leadership.  We know there were leaders in the past that lived lives as secretly gay but I haven't heard of any with the pretend marriage scenario you mention. 

In both scenarios women and the LGBT community are less than full equals in the church. 

Phaedrus 

Yeah, no. We don't know that. Even in many instances of same-sex sexual behavior there is no annotation. 

I know of multiple Bishops, Stake Presidents, and 2 mission presidents.

And if calling my marriage pretend demonstrates the alternative acceptance and non-judgment available outside the bigoted, hateful Church. . . . I'll stay right here, thanks. 

[Wade Englund]

5 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

There are so many mixed messages from the church about the LGBT community.  For every nice act there is hurtful and harmful rhetoric.  It's like watching the happy social media posts of a friend you know is being beaten at home.  Yes there has been positive steps but the beatings haven't stopped.  

As Nina Simone said so well "You've got to learn to leave the table when love's no longer being served."  I understand for so many people this means disconnecting from an entire culture and support system.  I believe staying in a culture that considers your flawed, defective and inferior is harmful. 

Phaedrus 

 

5 hours ago, kllindley said:

Thank goodness the Church doesn't view any of God's children as flawed, detective, or inferior. I imagine I would have a hard time staying if they did. 

Actually, the Church culture I live in views everyone but Christ as flawed and defective--I view myself that way in particular.  It would be harmful were it not for the healing and perfecting power of he who is without flaw. As it is, I have found the Christ-centered life in my Church culture, rather than a flaw-centered life, to be extremely healthy.

But, to each their own.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[jpv]

6 hours ago, phaedrus ut said:

Here is a easy question.  Can a gay man or a woman be a mission president? 

Yep, I knew one:

https://leadingsaints.org/lgbt-issues-in-the-bishops-office/

[rockpond]

15 hours ago, Calm said:

No we don't.  The article you quote states the handbook requires annotations in the case of same sex sexual activity.  Local leaders may have interpreted it that way and annotated identification or feelings that way, but that is not policy from the article.  The article also says the practice is waning.

According to the handbook, it needs to have been repeated homosexual activities by adults and the Bishop and SP need to submit the report of the disciplinary action to headquarters for the annotation to be added (has to be a proactive decision on their part to seek the annotation).

I've been a bishop's counselor and an executive secretary and I know of no way to annotate a members record locally.  This could, however, just be my lack of knowledge about MLS.  Anyone here know if it is even possible to annotate a member's record at the local level and have it "stick" when the member moves to their next unit?  My reading of the handbook indicates that such annotations can only be added/removed by church headquarters.

Edited May 21, 2019 by rockpond

[mfbukowski]

All I know is that when I am able to overcome my most difficult pervasive sin, the spirit enables me to fly to heights I have never before experienced.

These folks must be among God's absolutely favorite people in the universe to do what they have been able to do in their lives. You can see it in their eyes. Very touching.

[CV75]

On 3/21/2019 at 2:38 PM, kllindley said:

This video was released last weekend.  I love its uplifting message of faith and hope.  I know many of the individuals in the video personally, and I can add my own testimony to theirs. 

And I to yours and theirs--"charity never faileth."