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Was Jesus a conservative or a liberal?


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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

How do you get "conservative" out of all of this?  Thomas Jefferson considered himself a radical progressive.  

I realize that modern-day conservatives love to carry around and trumpet the constitution, but that doesn't make the constitution the foundation of modern conservatism as conservatism applies to other countries as well. 

A conservative is a person who does not want change and wants to hold on to his guns and wealth to oppress and threaten the poor.  A conservative opposes abortion because he or she thinks it is Biblical murder.  A liberal is one who wants change to confiscate (i.e., legal stealing) wealth from the rich.  A liberal favors abortion as a means to engage in genocide against the poor minorities.

I don't know what Jesus Christ was, but Joseph Smith was a libertarian.  Freedom of religion, economic freedom and other freedoms like that.  

Libertarianism is the right wing version of communism - a rather naive ideology that only works in the imagination of its adherents, never in practice.

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56 minutes ago, Gray said:

Libertarianism is the right wing version of communism - a rather naive ideology that only works in the imagination of its adherents, never in practice.

Can you even name a society that has practiced libertarianism off the top of your head?  How do you know it doesn't work in practice?

Here is an argument that it has worked:

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/has-a-libertarian-society-ever-existed/

Edited by pogi
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47 minutes ago, pogi said:

Can you even name a society that has practiced libertarianism off the top of your head?  How do you know it doesn't work in practice?

Here is an argument that it has worked: 

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/has-a-libertarian-society-ever-existed/

Not in modern history, no. We have examples of libertarianism in action in our own past, and we were worse off for it. Individual states that have enacted more libertarian policies (like Kansas) were worse off for it.

Like I said, it always works in theory, never in practice. Just like communism.

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11 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

If this is true why did he destroy the Nauvoo Expositor press? Wasn't Oliver Cowdery, in part, excommunicated for selling his own land in Missouri?

Joseph Smith was also an advocate for and preached the word of wisdom, yet he occasionally smoked cigars and drank alcohol...

Ones actions might not always match up with ones ideals.  We are human after all.

I don't know the Oliver Cowdery story, can you explain the circumstance?

Edited by pogi
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2 hours ago, pogi said:

Can you even name a society that has practiced libertarianism off the top of your head?  How do you know it doesn't work in practice?

Here is an argument that it has worked:

https://thelibertarianrepublic.com/has-a-libertarian-society-ever-existed/

Weak arguments. His examples are warring tribalistic Norwegian expats, modern-day Somalia of all places, the feudal Holy Roman Empire, and an ancient Greek state. So his examples of successful libertarianism are examples of ancient and modern tribalism (both versions also function/ed as pirates, sorry, libertarian pirates), feudalism (???), and a city-state that functioned largely due to slave labor.

This is like Ayn Rand all over again. If these are the best examples your philosophy is self-refuting.

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3 hours ago, co-eternal said:

The reason for the term “libritarian” is because modern conservatism is not true conservatism.  Conservatism is about conserving individual and personal rights above all else. That is what the D of I is all about, and the constitution is how to implement a republic dedecated to conserving individual rights and liberty. A republic, because it is rule of law not rule of man, or rule of mob as in the case of democracy.

That is how I get that. You might want to reas E. T. Benson’s “The proper role of government” if you have not yet gotten it.

“True conservatism” is pining for a made up golden age in a past that never existed. 

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On 3/19/2019 at 2:41 PM, ttribe said:

I predict this thread won't last the day because some participants will start to argue their political viewpoints and the whole thing will come crashing down.

It took a little longer expected but we got there. Well done everyone!

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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

“True conservatism” is pining for a made up golden age in a past that never existed. 

You demonstration of expertise and understanding of this topic is totally underwhelming. I have a difficult time understanding how someone can post so prolificly yet add so little to the common knowledge on any topic.

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9 minutes ago, co-eternal said:

You demonstration of expertise and understanding of this topic is totally underwhelming. I have a difficult time understanding how someone can post so prolificly yet add so little to the common knowledge on any topic.

Nothing left huh?

As to my ability it is a spiritual gift. For as Paul wrote to the people of Corinth:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the gift of mocking the ignorantly self-assured:

Edited by The Nehor
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10 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Nothing left huh?

As to my ability it is a spiritual gift. For as Paul wrote to the people of Corinth:

7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.

8 For to one is given by the Spirit the word of wisdom; to another the word of knowledge by the same Spirit;

9 To another faith by the same Spirit; to another the gifts of healing by the same Spirit;

10 To another the working of miracles; to another prophecy; to another discerning of spirits; to another divers kinds of tongues; to another the interpretation of tongues, to another the gift of mocking the ignorantly self-assured:

15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.

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15 minutes ago, co-eternal said:

15 And it came to pass that they took him; and his name was Nehor; and they carried him upon the top of the hill Manti, and there he was caused, or rather did acknowledge, between the heavens and the earth, that what he had taught to the people was contrary to the word of God; and there he suffered an ignominious death.

If you strike me down I shall become more powerful then you can possibly imagine.

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3 hours ago, CA Steve said:

If this is true why did he destroy the Nauvoo Expositor press? Wasn't Oliver Cowdery, in part, excommunicated for selling his own land in Missouri?

Libertarianism is a system of government, not one of theology.   The destruction of the press and excommunication was done in the name of religion, not compulsory government.  I take that back; the destruction of the press was done by the City Council.  Definitely not libertarian philosophy.

Edited by Bob Crockett
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5 hours ago, co-eternal said:

The reason for the term “libritarian” is because modern conservatism is not true conservatism.  Conservatism is about conserving individual and personal rights above all else. That is what the D of I is all about, and the constitution is how to implement a republic dedecated to conserving individual rights and liberty. A republic, because it is rule of law not rule of man, or rule of mob as in the case of democracy.

That is how I get that. You might want to reas E. T. Benson’s “The proper role of government” if you have not yet gotten it.

I don't know how to respond to this post.  So I shan't.

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Weak arguments. His examples are warring tribalistic Norwegian expats, modern-day Somalia of all places, the feudal Holy Roman Empire, and an ancient Greek state. So his examples of successful libertarianism are examples of ancient and modern tribalism (both versions also function/ed as pirates, sorry, libertarian pirates), feudalism (???), and a city-state that functioned largely due to slave labor.

This is like Ayn Rand all over again. If these are the best examples your philosophy is self-refuting.

The Icelandic Godord were not "tribal".  America was built on slave labor by kidnapping innocent Africans.  We stole the land from the natives, murdered, and plundered our way to the top.  The difference between our history of slaves and their history is that their slaves were not kidnapped and indentured for life, they were enslaved as payment for unpaid debt or theft only.  Nor did they steal and kill to obtain their land.  Sure there was some feuding - the extent to which is debatable.   Are we without feuding ourselves?  There has been 4 murders and other gang related violence within a 5 mile radius of my home in the last month alone...and I live in Utah!!!   Was it a perfect society?  Nope.  Did it work?  I think that depends on your perspective.  Some might argue that America is the greatest example of a failed society every - the "great evil" and most corrupt nation to ever exist.  So, it really depends on which side you are standing. My point is simply that one can't necessarily say that libertarianism doesn't work in practice.  There simply are no modern examples to make that argument from, and it is difficult to draw any conclusions on the viability of a libertarian system in a modern society from these ancient examples.  

Edited by pogi
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5 hours ago, Gray said:

Libertarianism is the right wing version of communism - a rather naive ideology that only works in the imagination of its adherents, never in practice.

Libertarianism is not "right wing."  It is not "left wing."  Many of my libertarian friends vote the Democratic ticket because it represents aspects of personal freedom that the Republican party does not promote.  The essential credo of libertarianism is that no compulsion should exist for government policy.  Many except national defense from that.

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4 hours ago, Gray said:

Individual states that have enacted more libertarian policies (like Kansas) were worse off for it.

Yes, and conservatives will argue that liberal states are worse of for enacting liberal policies, while liberals will argue that conservative states are worse off for enacting conservative policies....blah, blah, blah.

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