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cinepro

Stake Conference Story About Homosexuality

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18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

In the category of "wow, I can't believe I heard this in Stake Conference this morning":

An older Temple Worker was giving a talk, and he talked about how regular Temple attendance can help us "round off the rough edges."  He gave several examples from his own life.  One of them was about his son coming out as gay, and entering into a relationship with another man.  The speaker talked about how difficult this was for him, and how he couldn't accept his son attending family gatherings with his "friend."  So he prayed that the situation could be reconciled, and over time, he came to understand how important his relationship to his son was, and invited his son and his friend to attend a family birthday gathering, and now they're both included in family events.

So the "rough edge" that was rounded off in the Temple was his inability to accept his son's boyfriend and their relationship, and he felt that it was only through inspiration in the Temple that he was able to learn to accept it and include them both in family activities.

20 years ago, if someone had predicted I might hear such a story in Stake Conference, I would have thought they were crazy.  Despite protestations to the contrary, there does appear to be huge change afoot in the Church.  Where this all might end up, I can't imagine.

 

I not completely following you here.  All I see is a father who accepts his son and his agency to live his life.  He probably hopes for a miracle and things will change.  If I had a son and he came to me and said "Dad, I want to star in porn."  What should I say to that?  Should I say "Way to go boy. I will support you 100%"?  Should I disown him and never talk to him again?  Should I be disappointed but still love my son and keep my relationship with him and perhaps he makes better choices in life?   I think the best action for me is the last option.  I don't see huge changes in the church other than members being more kind and wanting to help people to repent.  Repentance rarely is caused by force or threats.  We need to become more of a Zion people but I don't think accepting bad behavior is part of the qualifications of Zion.

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We had a similar story in stake conference (adult session) a couple years back. It was actually a member of the stake presidency who gave the talk. I agree, change is afoot in this regard and many others.

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10 minutes ago, bluebell said:

It makes complete sense to me.  I've never believed that our teachings about SSM or gay or lesbian relationships means that we can not include them in our families or show them love and compassion.  God will judge their relationships, we don't need to punish them by withholding our love or company.

I was in ward council this morning and we discussed one of our young women who recently decided to identify as a male.  Everyone in the room took it in stride (and the EQ president quickly referred to her as 'he' when speaking about an upcoming birthday) but the senior elder (missionary couple) said 'don't you mean 'it' under his breath and it was such a jarring display of a lack of compassion and love that it caught me off guard.  This elder seemed to be having a hard day anyway so maybe it was an aspect of that but I think we need to remember that there is no room for that kind of behavior from people who claim to represent Christ.  We don't have to agree but we can always be kind and loving.

I totally agree with you. However, at what point does love and compassion end and acceptance of sinful behavior begin? For example, are you going to let this Young Women attend Young Men's? Will you allow this person to go on a week long Young Men campout? Will you let them attend Elder's Quorum? After they transition, if they start asking the other Young Women in your ward on dates like prom is that a concern? 

Again, I totally agree that we should show love and compassion. But at some point the standards that another has will violate the church's policies and push others to follow in their footsteps. From what I see, inevitably it reaches to a point where the person sinning is told 'no' and it has to be explained that what they are doing is a sin, at which point they respond that they are not being shown love and compassion because calling a sin a sin means we are judging and unloving.

So I am curious to know specifically how your ward balances this and for you personally where you draw the line between love and compassion and acceptance of sinful behavior.

 

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20 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I totally agree with you. However, at what point does love and compassion end and acceptance of sinful behavior begin? For example, are you going to let this Young Women attend Young Men's? Will you allow this person to go on a week long Young Men campout? Will you let them attend Elder's Quorum? After they transition, if they start asking the other Young Women in your ward on dates like prom is that a concern? 

Again, I totally agree that we should show love and compassion. But at some point the standards that another has will violate the church's policies and push others to follow in their footsteps. From what I see, inevitably it reaches to a point where the person sinning is told 'no' and it has to be explained that what they are doing is a sin, at which point they respond that they are not being shown love and compassion because calling a sin a sin means we are judging and unloving.

So I am curious to know specifically how your ward balances this and for you personally where you draw the line between love and compassion and acceptance of sinful behavior.

 

It’s not an issue for our ward because she lives in another ward with her mother. And she’s not active at all. 

I don’t know how we would handle it otherwise. 

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42 minutes ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

But at some point the standards that another has will violate the church's policies and push others to follow in their footsteps

I worked for 25 years for an openly gay man. Best boss I have ever had. Somehow no one around him suddenly became gay nor did I ever observe anyone "push[ing] anyone to follow in [his] footsteps".

When the standards of the church are being violated then it is up who are appointed to oversee such violations to take action, for what ever standard is being violated. 

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Posted (edited)
On 3/17/2019 at 5:20 PM, cinepro said:

It would probably be more correct to say that you were completely not following me there.

If you think a child who says they "want to work in porn" is the equivalent to a child that says they are gay, then your post illustrates exactly why I was so surprised to hear the story in Stake Conference in the first place.

I took his point completely differently than you. I did not think he was saying that being gay and living an active gay life style and being a son working in the porn industry were equivalent choices or actions. I thought he was saying that a parent could be disappointed with the choices a child makes, but still love them regardless. 

Edited by Storm Rider
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Posted (edited)
On 3/17/2019 at 4:26 PM, cinepro said:

In the category of "wow, I can't believe I heard this in Stake Conference this morning":

An older Temple Worker was giving a talk, and he talked about how regular Temple attendance can help us "round off the rough edges."  He gave several examples from his own life.  One of them was about his son coming out as gay, and entering into a relationship with another man.  The speaker talked about how difficult this was for him, and how he couldn't accept his son attending family gatherings with his "friend."  So he prayed that the situation could be reconciled, and over time, he came to understand how important his relationship to his son was, and invited his son and his friend to attend a family birthday gathering, and now they're both included in family events.

So the "rough edge" that was rounded off in the Temple was his inability to accept his son's boyfriend and their relationship, and he felt that it was only through inspiration in the Temple that he was able to learn to accept it and include them both in family activities.

20 years ago, if someone had predicted I might hear such a story in Stake Conference, I would have thought they were crazy.  Despite protestations to the contrary, there does appear to be huge change afoot in the Church.  Where this all might end up, I can't imagine.

 

I am glad that this was brought up in a stake conference. A child, a friend, an associate telling a parent, family member or loved one is NOT an invitation to kick them out of the family or to cease having a relationship. There may be a conversation about how that choice does not fit well within the gospel of Jesus Christ, but then showing forth an increased love of them as an individual and valued member of the family. 

Edited by Storm Rider

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Posted (edited)
10 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There may be a conversation about how that choice does not fit well within the gospel of Jesus Christ, 

Ugh.  Really?

You think a person who is gay and in a SS relationship or marriage can’t be a follower of Christ?  That they don’t “fit well” with the gospel of Jesus Christ?  I think you are terribly wrong here and that would be an awful idea.  I’ve know a few gay people and they were some of the kindest and most Christlike people I’ve known.  For sure they follow Christ’s teachings.

Edited by JulieM
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Posted (edited)
On 3/17/2019 at 8:37 PM, JulieM said:

Ugh.  Really?

You think a person who is gay and in a SS relationship or marriage can’t be a follower of Chris?  That they don’t “fit well” with the gospel of Jesus Christ?  I think you are terribly wrong here and that would be an awful idea.  I’ve know a few gay people and they were some of the kindest and most Christlike persons I’ve known.  For sure they follow the teachings of Christ.

Julie, I don't have a clue about the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptural text or the proclamation of prophets from the beginning of time until today. I think you are terribly, ignorantly wrong about what is and what is not in accord with the teachings of the Church. 

I am glad you know individuals with SSA who are Christlike. And? Do you really think you have a unique experience than me or anyone else?  How naive can you be in your understanding of humanity. I know sinners who are also Christlike. So what!  Does that mean they stop following Jesus Christ? 

When any child comes to you and says, "I don't want to follow the teachings of the Church and I am going to choose this path over here." That is a time to listen to what motivates their new choice and discuss what makes that choice viable for them. It is also a time to clearly demarcate what is and what is not in keeping with the teachings of Jesus Christ and the challenges or difficulties abandoning them are. 

Yes, and UGH, I am just as tired of that constant, incessant moral superiority we get from the Left. 

Edited by Storm Rider
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Posted (edited)
13 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Julie, I don't have a clue about the gospel of Jesus Christ as revealed in the scriptural text or the proclamation of prophets from the beginning of time until today. I think you are terribly, ignorantly wrong about what is and what is not in accord with the teachings of the Church. 

Oh I know the current teachings of our leaders (and policies).  I’m referring to being a follower of Christ and having a place in His gospel.

As far as I believe, those can sometimes be two different things. 

I believe the policy and current views of our leaders are from man, not from God or Christ.

Edited by JulieM
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I think the love of the parent for the child is always there.  It just takes some time for them to realize that the situation is real and is not going to change.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

These are the exact same questions my faithful Mormon family asked when I told them I was gay.   It took them 13 years to decide that it would be ok for me to start attending family activities once again.  Now my partner and I are invited to all the family events and those questions you are asking seem to have been answered. What is important to them is not the choices I have made, but the choices they have made towards me.  

Several of my siblings and inlaws have taken me aside and not only apoligized but asked for my forgiveness in how they treated me.  I told them all was forgotten and gave them a hug.  And just to set your fears aside, none have been pushed to follow in my footsteps.  

I am glad to see the church moving in a much more positive direction.  I hope others do not have to endure a 13 year banishment because of fear they are accepting sinful behavior.  I think these talks in conference is helping to prevent that from happening in the future.  

I am really glad to hear that your family was able to become more loving and kind. I honestly worry that most people in the Church of Jesus Christ don't spend enough time reading, contemplating, and living Christ's commandments regarding love. It is something I wish we focused on more as a church.

As a follow up question on this, if your family members are still active Church members, does it bother you if they believe you are sinning? Do you feel they can still show love to you and also teach their children that homosexuality is a sin?

Also, do how do you think the church should handle the examples I gave previously:

1 hour ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I totally agree with you. However, at what point does love and compassion end and acceptance of sinful behavior begin? For example, are you going to let this Young Women attend Young Men's? Will you allow this person to go on a week long Young Men campout? Will you let them attend Elder's Quorum? After they transition, if they start asking the other Young Women in your ward on dates like prom is that a concern? 

How does the church still show love and charity while standing up for its beliefs in the situation above?

(note: I do not want to claim in this question that just because someone does something I disagree with that they will go around 'converting' others or that I need to fear them doing so. But instead, I do know of cases where a few youth began down this road and they invited others to join them in this. I don't think it happens in call cases, but could. So I am curious of your viewpoint on when it's okay for the Church to say no to someone else and how to do it charitably).

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5 hours ago, Anonymous Mormon said:

I am really glad to hear that your family was able to become more loving and kind. I honestly worry that most people in the Church of Jesus Christ don't spend enough time reading, contemplating, and living Christ's commandments regarding love. It is something I wish we focused on more as a church.

As a follow up question on this, if your family members are still active Church members, does it bother you if they believe you are sinning? Do you feel they can still show love to you and also teach their children that homosexuality is a sin?

 

My family is still very active in the church.  I don't honestly know how they feel about me being with my partner now.  We don't talk about sin when we get together.  I do think they are genuinely happy that I have found someone as wonderful as my parttner in my life.  But it certainly does not bother me in the least if they think I am sinning.  To be truthful, I myself don't know if I am sinning.  What I do know is that I don't believe everything church leaders have told me comes from God.  I also know that I feel very close to God and feel His love and guidance in my life.  I am certainly closer to God then when I was pretending to be straight and felt like I was living a life of deception.  I trust the judgement of God and really don't care about anyone else's judgement of my life.

I am sure my family knows that calling me to repentence because of what they believe would not change how I feel about my life.  I figure that if God is that unhappy with the choices I am making, He will let me know. And a message from Him would be much more impactful than anything any church leader or family member has to say.

 

Quote

Also, do how do you think the church should handle the examples I gave previously:

How does the church still show love and charity while standing up for its beliefs in the situation above?

(note: I do not want to claim in this question that just because someone does something I disagree with that they will go around 'converting' others or that I need to fear them doing so. But instead, I do know of cases where a few youth began down this road and they invited others to join them in this. I don't think it happens in call cases, but could. So I am curious of your viewpoint on when it's okay for the Church to say no to someone else and how to do it charitably).

• Are you going to let this Young Women attend Young Men's? Will you allow this person to go on a week long Young Men campout?

  -Yes.  I can't think of a reason to not let the person participate.  Can you?

• Will you let them attend Elder's Quorum?

 - I can't see how it would be a problem if that is where he feels. most comfortable.  I think it would be a rare opportunity for the elders in the quorum to reach out and show love and compassion.  Just because he transitioned doesn't mean he would be disruptive.

* After they transition, if they start asking the other Young Women in your ward on dates like prom is that a concern? 

  - I guess the young woman being asked would have to decide for herself whether she is comfortable with going on a date with someone who is trans.  If they are friends, then going as friends doesn't seem threatening to anyone.  Kids often go to prom as friends.  So I guess my answer is,   depends.

On a personal note, I have to say that I honestly have no idea what it would be like to be trans any more than most people.  Being gay really doesn't help to understand what that might be like.  But I do know what it is like to be marginalized simply because of fear and prejudice.  So I am probably more willing to reach out and show as much love and caring that I can.   It is one of the reasons I have gone from cursing God for giving me this burden to learning to thank God every day for sending me to this earth as a gay man.  It has taught me so much about overcoming fear and prejudice as a reason to not love, to not show compassion.  I think that is what most trials teach us.  It is just the way I learned those valuable lessons.

 

 

Edited by california boy

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10 hours ago, cinepro said:

In the category of "wow, I can't believe I heard this in Stake Conference this morning":

An older Temple Worker was giving a talk, and he talked about how regular Temple attendance can help us "round off the rough edges."  He gave several examples from his own life.  One of them was about his son coming out as gay, and entering into a relationship with another man.  The speaker talked about how difficult this was for him, and how he couldn't accept his son attending family gatherings with his "friend."  So he prayed that the situation could be reconciled, and over time, he came to understand how important his relationship to his son was, and invited his son and his friend to attend a family birthday gathering, and now they're both included in family events.

So the "rough edge" that was rounded off in the Temple was his inability to accept his son's boyfriend and their relationship, and he felt that it was only through inspiration in the Temple that he was able to learn to accept it and include them both in family activities.

20 years ago, if someone had predicted I might hear such a story in Stake Conference, I would have thought they were crazy.  Despite protestations to the contrary, there does appear to be huge change afoot in the Church.  Where this all might end up, I can't imagine.

The Gospel seems to create all sorts of opportunities for change.

By the way, I was asked earlier today how to enter a transgender person into the familysearch system.  Does one follow the gender of choice, or birth?  How about same gender marriages and sealings?

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I was approached by a lovely young lady at work several weeks ago when she told me she had something that she felt she needed to share with me.  She and I have a "Father/Daughter" type of relationship and she has come to me for advice in the past.  This particular time she shared with me that she was Bi-Sexual and that she was struggling with reconciling that with her Christian upbringing.  She is active in her non-denomination church.   I have found her to be a young woman of faith, striving hard to live the gospel to the best of her ability and understanding.

When she started the conversation, she paused...obviously very nervous....I held her hand, whispered to her that whatever it is...it's okay.  She took a deep breath and starting talking. I listened.  When she was done, I told her I loved her...and that would never change, gave her a big hug....and told her "we'll talk".  She smiled...told me she loved me....and said she will look forward to our talks in the future.     Then I began the process of getting my head around what I just heard..and what my own personal feelings on this were....and pondered over how to proceed.    

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14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Yes, and UGH, I am just as tired of that constant, incessant morality superiority we get from the Left. 

Who are the people who don't think their way of seeing things is morally superior? I'd be interested to meet them.

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14 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Yes, and UGH, I am just as tired of that constant, incessant morality superiority.....

Are you self reflecting and describing yourself here?  

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20 hours ago, cinepro said:

It would probably be more correct to say that you were completely not following me there.

If you think a child who says they "want to work in porn" is the equivalent to a child that says they are gay, then your post illustrates exactly why I was so surprised to hear the story in Stake Conference in the first place.

Just curious, are you intentionally conflating being gay with the choice to enter a same-sex relationship?  Do you see them as one and the same thing?  

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Stop the personal insults or the thread will have to be closed.

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19 hours ago, JulieM said:

Oh I know the current teachings of our leaders (and policies).  I’m referring to being a follower of Christ and having a place in His gospel.

As far as I believe, those can sometimes be two different things. 

I believe the policy and current views of our leaders are from man, not from God or Christ.

Okay, I got it. I think they are right today and God's people have been right for thousands of years. What changed? It certainly was not God's moral teaching, but humans who want to be right in their sin - they want to call evil good. It has happened before and it will happen for other sins as well. 

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5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Are you self reflecting and describing yourself here?  

No, it has become a very common meme - the Left that wants to teach the world that everyone is an idiot if they don't think like they do. As a disciple of Jesus Christ, I may represent him at times, but what I am saying on this topic is and has been Judeo-Christian moral teaching for thousands of years. I fail to see how the humans of today, with absolutely no direction from God, can now claim everyone was wrong; it is okay to let our passions run wild. This position is very old and has always been used by those who want to revel in sin without consequences.

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