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Are men being disenfranchised?


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Hmm, saw this article just now.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40510522/meritocracy-doesnt-exist-and-believing-it-does-is-bad-for-you

"In addition to [merit = success] being false, a growing body of research in psychology and neuroscience suggests that believing in meritocracy makes people more selfish, less self-critical, and even more prone to acting in discriminatory ways. Meritocracy is not only wrong; it’s bad."

That isn't to say grit and hard work aren't important. But, extend that idea too far and it is a pernicious, even diabolical (al la Korihor) philosophy. Apply the idea to genders and it takes on a whole new flavor of falsehood.

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On 3/16/2019 at 1:15 AM, MiserereNobis said:

The point I'm trying to make is that two people may have the same desire/passion, but because one of them is a favored class (be that gender, race, economic status, country of birth, whatever), the one in the favored class will have a greater chance of success than the one in the not-favored class, even though their desire is the same. So yes, of course, all can win the race, but the one in the not-favored class has to work harder at it than the one in the favored class. Or, to use your terms, the one in the not-favored class has to have more passion, desire, hunger for success.

And that is not just.

I don't think we disagree with one another about this life. It is not fair; it is not just. Each of us needs to understand that this carnal world is driven by passions that are in conflict with the sweeter, divine guidance of the Holy Spirit. Yet, we do find episodes, moments, of justice in the world when it comes to the individual. We speak in broad generalizations about specific races, genders, etc., but on an individual basis there are moments filled with grace and the greater qualities carry individuals to acts of genuine kindness and justice.

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2 hours ago, Nofear said:

Hmm, saw this article just now.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40510522/meritocracy-doesnt-exist-and-believing-it-does-is-bad-for-you

"In addition to [merit = success] being false, a growing body of research in psychology and neuroscience suggests that believing in meritocracy makes people more selfish, less self-critical, and even more prone to acting in discriminatory ways. Meritocracy is not only wrong; it’s bad."

That isn't to say grit and hard work aren't important. But, extend that idea too far and it is a pernicious, even diabolical (al la Korihor) philosophy. Apply the idea to genders and it takes on a whole new flavor of falsehood.

Yup, and I see how meritocracy is so false in sports such as basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc. This vein of philosophy is often forced and exaggerated to meet a social agenda and objective. When sports stop being a meritocracy, then I might begin to think that path you propose has any potential. 

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Oh, the only path I propose is the gospel. And it is foolish and anti=gospel to think one's station in life is the sole function of merit.

Even in sports there is a great deal of randomness as to whether one's merit is noticed so as to be put into public display where the merit can be noticed. And let's not even mention the possibility of accident which can put even the world's best athletes out of play.

In summary, merit = good. Also merit != guarantee of worldly success. Also merit != reliable indicator of righteousness.

But, I shan't repeat myself more on this vein of thought. The op is of more interest to me than Puritan heresies.

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On 3/17/2019 at 11:14 AM, Storm Rider said:

Yup, and I see how meritocracy is so false in sports such as basketball, baseball, football, soccer, etc. This vein of philosophy is often forced and exaggerated to meet a social agenda and objective. When sports stop being a meritocracy, then I might begin to think that path you propose has any potential. 

Success in athletics is heavily tied to genetics. I could not outswim Michael Phelps even if I practiced and worked harder then him.

I also think that facts disagreeing with your social views is a very bad reason to reject them.

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On 3/15/2019 at 12:12 AM, Calm said:

I can see why some still feel it is worthwhile to focus in women's achievements outside of community achievements given lists like this that have two women in the top 25 (Jane Austen at 12 and Agatha Christie at 25):

https://m.ranker.com/list/best-writers-of-all-time/ranker-books

Given the heavy European slant, if I were of Asian heritage and in the states and I saw a list like this, I would wish to see a list celebrating Asian authors.

The problem with Asian authors in the US is that unless they are published in translation or write natively in English, few ever hear of them.

It's a thing in music, too.  I recall a Japanese singer who sang a song back in the 60's that went to the top of the charts in the US, even though the song was sung in Japanese (Called "Sukiyaki" in the US, its actual title was "I Shall Walk Looking Up").  This is practically the only time such a thing has happened.  One of my favorite Japanese musical groups is World Order, but who ever hears of them here?  Here's a link to one of their signature tunes, "World Order".  Can't understand a thing, but it's a great piece of music -- and the music video is pretty cool, too!  They do a music video for all of their songs and they all look pretty much like this.  Not identical, but sychronicity.  Another good one is "Have a Nice Day!"

On 3/15/2019 at 12:12 AM, Calm said:

just an FYI:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/susancheng/asians-with-emmys

It doesn't automatically mean that the rest are being ignored.  Some will, but generally there are other opportunities to provide more than enough venues for voices that in the past have been hugely dominant, even if it feels that in comparison their voice has become less heard simply because others have become louder and more common.

There are a lot of extreme viewpoints out there that are being put forward.  "Toxic masculinity" is a big thing in some circles.  And there are those who campaign for such viewpoints.  An example is the actress Brie Larsen, who stars currently as "Captain Marvel".  She said that she didn't care if white males came to see the film, because it wasn't made for them.  Or something to that effect.  She also didn't want too many white male reviewers writing reviews of the film, too.

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On 3/17/2019 at 10:11 AM, Nofear said:

Hmm, saw this article just now.
https://www.fastcompany.com/40510522/meritocracy-doesnt-exist-and-believing-it-does-is-bad-for-you

"In addition to [merit = success] being false, a growing body of research in psychology and neuroscience suggests that believing in meritocracy makes people more selfish, less self-critical, and even more prone to acting in discriminatory ways. Meritocracy is not only wrong; it’s bad."

That isn't to say grit and hard work aren't important. But, extend that idea too far and it is a pernicious, even diabolical (al la Korihor) philosophy. Apply the idea to genders and it takes on a whole new flavor of falsehood.

I went back and read the article; whole lot of deductions and opinions using the studies of other people. This is an opinion piece; it is NOT science and NOT proven. 

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46 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

An example is the actress Brie Larsen, who stars currently as "Captain Marvel".  She said that she didn't care if white males came to see the film, because it wasn't made for them.  Or something to that effect.  She also didn't want too many white male reviewers writing reviews of the film, too.

“She would add, “What I’m looking for is to bring more seats up to the table. No one is getting their chair taken away. There’s not less seats at the table, there’s just more seats at the table.””

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/02/25/captain-marvels-brie-larson-clarifies-overwhelmingly-white-male-comments-wants-to-bring-more-seats-up-to-the-table/

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1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

I went back and read the article; whole lot of deductions and opinions using the studies of other people. This is an opinion piece; it is NOT science and NOT proven. 

That is quite correct. It was placed there merely for information as to whether or not one found the argument worthwhile. I personally found it a bit hyperbolic but that the main thrust was mostly on point. Merit does matter. It just doesn't matter as much as most people want to credit it for.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

“She would add, “What I’m looking for is to bring more seats up to the table. No one is getting their chair taken away. There’s not less seats at the table, there’s just more seats at the table.””

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/02/25/captain-marvels-brie-larson-clarifies-overwhelmingly-white-male-comments-wants-to-bring-more-seats-up-to-the-table/

Could it possibly be that the action comic audience is vastly overwhelmingly young males? Nah. 

What does this even mean?

“She would add, ‘Am I saying I hate white dudes? No, I am not. What I am saying is you make a movie that is a love letter to women of color, there is an insanely low chance a woman of color will have a chance to see your movie, and review your movie.’

Something very odd there.  What a world we live in.

 

 

 

Edited by Bernard Gui
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25 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could it possibly be that the action comic audience is vastly overwhelmingly young males? Nah. 

What does this even mean?

“She would add, ‘Am I saying I hate white dudes? No, I am not. What I am saying is you make a movie that is a love letter to women of color, there is an insanely low chance a woman of color will have a chance to see your movie, and review your movie.’

Something very odd there.  What a world we live in.

 

 

 

I think what she's saying is that the majority of movie critics are white males.

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Could it possibly be that the action comic audience is vastly overwhelmingly young males? Nah. 

What does this even mean?

“She would add, ‘Am I saying I hate white dudes? No, I am not. What I am saying is you make a movie that is a love letter to women of color, there is an insanely low chance a woman of color will have a chance to see your movie, and review your movie.’

Something very odd there.  What a world we live in.

The Color Purple

How Stella got her Groove Back

Sounder

Carmen Jones

Etc

Etc

Etc

What in the world is she talking about?

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

I think what she's saying is that the majority of movie critics are white males.

And who are the viewers of Marvel/DC comics-based movies?

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31 minutes ago, USU78 said:

The Color Purple

How Stella got her Groove Back

Sounder

Carmen Jones

Etc

Etc

Etc

What in the world is she talking about?

She is probably talking about how the professional movie critics are generally older white males.

Two women in this list:

Quote

Some well-known journalistic critics have included: James Agee (Time (magazine), The Nation); Vincent Canby (The New York Times); Roger Ebert (Chicago Sun-Times); Mark Kermode (BBC, The Observer); James Berardinelli; Philip French (The Observer); Pauline Kael (The New Yorker); Manny Farber (The New Republic, Time, The Nation); Peter Bradshaw (The Guardian); Michael Phillips (Chicago Tribune); Andrew Sarris (The Village Voice); Joel Siegel (Good Morning America); Jonathan Rosenbaum (Chicago Reader); and Christy Lemire (What The Flick?!).

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_criticism

Here is another with about 10 out of 125 being women, not looking up to see percentage of white as opposed to colour, too much clicking for that.

I didn't find Ms. Larsen particularly eloquent in what I read.  I have noted before problems with the superhero industry downplaying female interest (such as vetoing female action figures because girls don't buy stuff like that...Barbies, anyone?; Ant-man?!? got a movie before Black Widow)

Edited by Calm
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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

She is probably talking about how the professional movie critics are generally older white males.

Two women in this list:

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Film_criticism

Here is another with about 10 out of 125 being women, not looking up to see percentage of white as opposed to colour, too much clicking for that.

I didn't find Ms. Larsen particularly eloquent in what I read.  I have noted before problems with the superhero industry downplaying female interest (such as vetoing female action figures because girls don't buy stuff like that...Barbies, anyone?; Ant-man?!? got a movie before Black Widow)

Rosalind Russell. Rolling her eyes while composing a several megaton quip to devastate the idiot child with.

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54 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

And who are the viewers of Marvel/DC comics-based movies?

She’s not talking about comic-based movies. She’s talking about movies in general. 

And it can be a problem that most movie critics are white males because women make up the majority of movie ticket buyers (and they prefer action adventure/superhero movies). 

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3 hours ago, bluebell said:

She’s not talking about comic-based movies. She’s talking about movies in general. 

And it can be a problem that most movie critics are white males because women make up the majority of movie ticket buyers (and they prefer action adventure/superhero movies). 

In the context of her new film.

 

This should even up the score a bit, then.

https://www.refinery29.com/en-us/2018/03/193467/cherrypick-women-led-film-review-site

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25 minutes ago, Nofear said:

To the original question, are men being disenfranchised, consider this blog post: https://www.the-exponent.com/toxic-mormon-masculinity-series-pressure-to-provide/

The pressure to be a (sole) provider for one's family is now labeled by some as "toxic masculinity".

Wow, an emotionally disturbed individual, rather than working on his personal anxiety issues, casts aspersions on all of Mormon masculinity. It is a good job of projecting one's own problem on others. It is fortunate that he found a wife that could ring his bell and point out where his thinking was wrong, which helped some of his anxiety. 

The role of being a provider is not toxic; the distorted projection that everything in marriage is on one's own shoulders is toxic. Having distorted perceptions of anything is unhealthy or, at least, significantly impacts an individual's perception of reality, doctrines, teachings, etc. 

It is interesting how some individuals so easily carry things to extreme and then blame the "thing" for their own distortion. 

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On 3/14/2019 at 7:15 PM, poptart said:

Thought i'd toss this out there, who thinks men are getting the short end of the stick?  At least in a lot of the West.  There are far more women graduating nowadays, they dominate white collar and are very much outpacing men as far as success goes.  Biggest indicators for me so far are that not only is the CDC citing a rise in female suicides, but also a mens rights group help give the selective service system a huge blow, they cited female achievements as their justification.  One has to wonder if we may well end up with the selective service system going away over all this.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db328.htm

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/01/23/commission-eyes-adding-women-to-the-military-draft-or-dumping-the-system-altogether/

Even Captain Marvel makes me wonder.  If I had a daughter i'd not be too opposed, yet I'd have to be leary just because I have the sense to know it's a bad idea to put one gender on the pedistal while just leaving the other to starve, that almost always ends with unintended and bad consequences.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/hollywoods-captain-marvel-blockbuster-is-blatant-us-military-propaganda/256196/

Not trying to start a he said/she said argument, just me curious as to what you all might think.  I'm all for equality but when you start stepping on one gender that bad, there are societal consequences.  As an affect of #metoo, more and more men are opting out of talking to women at work without a witness, to my understanding even the LDS church has had to change ways they work with minors.  I can't help but wonder just what long term consequences will come from all this.

 

These arguments bring to mind two verses:

3 Nephi 6:3 - Some were lifted up in pride, and others were exceedingly humble; some did return (ideological) railing for railing, while others would receive railing and persecution and all manner of afflictions, and would not turn and revile again, but were humble and penitent before God.

Isaiah 4:1 - And in that day seven women shall take hold of one man, saying, We will eat our own bread, and wear our own apparel: only let us be called by thy name, to take away our reproach.

- This will be the result of the current movements and arguments. See: What to expect when no one's expecting for more analysis on current demogrpahic trends worldwide

 

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On 3/19/2019 at 4:44 PM, Calm said:

“She would add, “What I’m looking for is to bring more seats up to the table. No one is getting their chair taken away. There’s not less seats at the table, there’s just more seats at the table.””

https://boundingintocomics.com/2019/02/25/captain-marvels-brie-larson-clarifies-overwhelmingly-white-male-comments-wants-to-bring-more-seats-up-to-the-table/

This type of non-argument works if this table is not limited in size or scope or number of chairs

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1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

This type of non-argument works if this table is not limited in size or scope or number of chairs

She reminds me of the Bulls' coach <whose name I refuse to speak or even type out> who said, commenting on Jazz crowds:  "Too many d@mned Mormons."

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6 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

This type of non-argument works if this table is not limited in size or scope or number of chairs

And if limited, do you see "I was here first" as a valid argument for believing one shouldn't have to give up a chair?

Edited by Calm
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