Are men being disenfranchised?

[poptart]

Thought i'd toss this out there, who thinks men are getting the short end of the stick?  At least in a lot of the West.  There are far more women graduating nowadays, they dominate white collar and are very much outpacing men as far as success goes.  Biggest indicators for me so far are that not only is the CDC citing a rise in female suicides, but also a mens rights group help give the selective service system a huge blow, they cited female achievements as their justification.  One has to wonder if we may well end up with the selective service system going away over all this.

https://www.cdc.gov/nchs/products/databriefs/db328.htm

 

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/pentagon-congress/2019/01/23/commission-eyes-adding-women-to-the-military-draft-or-dumping-the-system-altogether/

Even Captain Marvel makes me wonder.  If I had a daughter i'd not be too opposed, yet I'd have to be leary just because I have the sense to know it's a bad idea to put one gender on the pedistal while just leaving the other to starve, that almost always ends with unintended and bad consequences.

https://www.mintpressnews.com/hollywoods-captain-marvel-blockbuster-is-blatant-us-military-propaganda/256196/

Not trying to start a he said/she said argument, just me curious as to what you all might think.  I'm all for equality but when you start stepping on one gender that bad, there are societal consequences.  As an affect of #metoo, more and more men are opting out of talking to women at work without a witness, to my understanding even the LDS church has had to change ways they work with minors.  I can't help but wonder just what long term consequences will come from all this.

 

[Storm Rider]

There have been a number of books written on the plight of boys and young men. It doesn't get much play because it does not fit the social agenda of the poor female victims that are not payed as much as males, are abused, blah, blah, blah. Feminism is not about equality, but about power and the desire to possess it. 

I was looking at Hulu today and they actually have an entire section entitled, "Female Creators - Celebrate these female creators and the stories they tell."  Seriously. It is not about if a show, movie is good, it is about what gender created the show. I was stunned and chalked it up to one more overwhelming evidence about the utter stupidity of humans.

People don't merit anything - they have to be the right color, right gender, have the right sexaul preference etc. Qualifications be ******. Of course, the counter argument is that white men control everything  and still have jobs - look at Trump, who is a more vile individual and still wins office. 

[Calm]

I can see why some still feel it is worthwhile to focus in women's achievements outside of community achievements given lists like this that have two women in the top 25 (Jane Austen at 12 and Agatha Christie at 25):

https://m.ranker.com/list/best-writers-of-all-time/ranker-books

Given the heavy European slant, if I were of Asian heritage and in the states and I saw a list like this, I would wish to see a list celebrating Asian authors.

just an FYI:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/susancheng/asians-with-emmys

It doesn't automatically mean that the rest are being ignored.  Some will, but generally there are other opportunities to provide more than enough venues for voices that in the past have been hugely dominant, even if it feels that in comparison their voice has become less heard simply because others have become louder and more common.

Edited March 15, 2019 by Calm

[Nofear]

I have my ear to organizations with a more female perspective. I listen to organizations to those with a more male perspective. Both secular and religious. Things are downright messy and there are justifiable grievances on both sides. I could go on quite a bit on this but I shan't belabor the thread.

What I can say, at a personal level, is that the Church is about the only place I can be where I feel that my masculinity is something not to be ashamed of and even valued.

[Calm]

And look at Oscar nominations for best original screenplays...those poor men just aren't being given the chance to show what they got! ;)

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Academy_Award_for_Best_Original_Screenplay

(even in the 2010s, women have 7 of 65 total (one or two not as partners with men), all men winning the category)

[JLHPROF]

30 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can see why some still feel it is worthwhile to focus in women's achievements outside of community achievements given lists like this that have two women in the top 25 (Jane Austen at 12 and Agatha Christie at 25):

https://m.ranker.com/list/best-writers-of-all-time/ranker-books

Given the heavy European slant, if I were of Asian heritage and in the states and I saw a list like this, I would wish to see a list celebrating Asian authors.

This approach brings the inevitable questions:

1. Does that mean that more female/Asian/other minority writers aren't as good?

OR

2. Does that mean that more female/Asian/other minority writers aren't being equally considered?

The one thing the Oscars are proving is that they are more concerned with nominating socially diverse nominations than actually looking for the best.  Were the diverse nominations not being considered previously or weren't there as many possible nominees of sufficient quality?

I recently had this conversation with a coworker about the Newbery Medal awards in Children's literature.  The social diversity in winners has completely expanded.  I'd like to think it's due to more diverse authors being published.  There is still the possibility that two books being of equal quality, the judges feel an obligation to choose the minority writer or most diverse topic.

[poptart]

50 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

There have been a number of books written on the plight of boys and young men. It doesn't get much play because it does not fit the social agenda of the poor female victims that are not payed as much as males, are abused, blah, blah, blah. Feminism is not about equality, but about power and the desire to possess it. 

I was looking at Hulu today and they actually have an entire section entitled, "Female Creators - Celebrate these female creators and the stories they tell."  Seriously. It is not about if a show, movie is good, it is about what gender created the show. I was stunned and chalked it up to one more overwhelming evidence about the utter stupidity of humans.

People don't merit anything - they have to be the right color, right gender, have the right sexaul preference etc. Qualifications be ******. Of course, the counter argument is that white men control everything  and still have jobs - look at Trump, who is a more vile individual and still wins office. 

Here's the thing, lets see how well a lot of the movies that these movements have spawned, Ghostbusters was a joke and the Starwars Franchise has really suffered with the hammerblow the last movie gave it.  Keep it up and you'll see more indie movies and independent studios pop up, you see it in gaming all the time.  SJW's are complaining about how video games objectify this etc.  There's a really good game out there called Kingdom Come Deliverance, was made by a European company and considering the whole thing starts around the 1500's-1600's, well big suprise the video game was very, very white and caused quite a bit of outrage from people here stateside.  This also gives companies in more moderate to conservative countries like those in Eastern Europe and East Asia a chance to capitalize.  Have to admit, it is nice playing games where the men and women look like, well, men and women.  I'm all for gender equality and LGBTQ rights but geez, pendilum can only go so far.

41 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can see why some still feel it is worthwhile to focus in women's achievements outside of community achievements given lists like this that have two women in the top 25 (Jane Austen at 12 and Agatha Christie at 25):

https://m.ranker.com/list/best-writers-of-all-time/ranker-books

Given the heavy European slant, if I were of Asian heritage and in the states and I saw a list like this, I would wish to see a list celebrating Asian authors.

just an FYI:  https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/susancheng/asians-with-emmys

It doesn't automatically mean that the rest are being ignored.  Some will, but generally there are other opportunities to provide more than enough venues for voices that in the past have been hugely dominant, even if it feels that in comparison their voice has become less heard simply because others have become louder and more common.

Lol preaching to the choir, i'm part Asian.  Came from a long line of relatively unbroken line of German Americans (German enough that they weren't allowed to fight in the European Theater in WWII) till my father came along.  That's the flip side of me, if we want real equality, how about an Asian American Captain Marvel?  Considering the Nisei still have among the highest medal count and despite not having the property that was confiscated during WWII returned yet still loved this country, yeah I'd say they're as American as anyone else.  Living in Tacoma was interesting, for such a liberal state wow do the Anglos look down on Asian Americans and Natives.  Remember one of the clubs I was part of, sure enough a lot of the locals had quite a liberal outlook, yet when we had a lot of Koreans and Chinese join, wow the racism sure came out.  Hate to say I pick favorites, considering mom raised me while my father spent most of his life abusing her and using me as a hostage/later on trying to ruin me then almost murder her, yeah big suprise who I ended up siding with.  Doesn't help that my fathers side is now in a tailspin and are paying the price for entitled grandchildren.

You're in Canada right?  Not sure about up there but here most Asian Americans, esp. the Japanese are still very leary.  The USA has a herritage of being not so kind, in the 1800s many places would just hang Chinese railworkers and treat them like garbage, hence why we had China and Japan towns pop up.  The Tong and in some cases Yakuza kept em clean, still see that a lot nowadays.  Fun fact, in Japan the Yakuza acts as a sort of gov't body, many retired cops end up working for em for the side money and they organize many of the local festivals, in some cases they even help fund the schools.  All that being said, here it's the East Asians who almost always end up on top money and education wise, can't knock family values.  Will be really interesting to see how things progress, as it is Anglo America is being replaced.  While I do say society and the gov't has a hand in it, I feel like the lions share of the blame lies on their own shoulders.  I look at my fathers side, they had everything.  My Uncle was on the battleship the Japanese surrendered the war on, he worked his whole life, taking his family from lower middle to upper middle class.  He passed, his oldest is now dealing with a bunch of entitled brats who are just dragging him down despite having the best handed to them.  Sadly, the daughter who has done everything to irritate the now matriarch (Very religious, church going lady....) has preference over the son.  Can already see him leaving once the father dies, i've seen it happen with a lot of my friends here. The father sells the sons out in favor of the daughter, the sons hold a grudge and when the moment comes they leave, holding the father and everyone else with the bag. 

I go on, seen a lot.  Think that's been the biggest source of contention i've had here, i'm technically not from the mainland and have very different takes on most things here, tbh I keep most of them to my self, if I was as honest IRL as I am here, i'd never make it.

 

 

[Calm]

48 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

The one thing the Oscars are proving is that they are more concerned with nominating socially diverse nominations than actually looking for the best.  Were the diverse nominations not being considered previously or weren't there as many possible nominees of sufficient quality?

Is there actual diversity or are there just claims of it?

It is possible female nominees were lacking because women are inherently poor writers, women weren't given the opportunities to train to be good writers, women weren't given the opportunities to be good writers because others would assume they weren't and didn't read their stuff, they have plenty of opportunity but the favourites have always been men, or whatever.

But if one assumes women can be good writers of screenplays, then shouldn't one wonder why they are absent (when they are) in various writing competitions.  I would wonder the same if men weren't there, but at least for the Oscars, men appear to be there in the most coveted, most important writing award (I am assuming this is the most coveted one, I may be wrong).

Edited March 15, 2019 by Calm

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, poptart said:

You're in Canada right

From 90 to 2003...now in small town Utah outside of Provo ( just city center, dance studio, dentist, bank, and funeral parlor in our bustling downtown).

[Nofear]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Is there actual diversity or are there just claims of it?

It is likely possible nominees were lacking because women are inherently poor writers, women weren't given the opportunitities to train to be good writers, women weren't given the opportunities to be good writers because others would assume they weren't and didn't read their stuff, they have plenty of opportunity but the favourites have always been men, or whatever.

Similar possible complications were cited when google did its pay equity analysis: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html

 

[Calm]

12 minutes ago, poptart said:

Lol preaching to the choir, i'm part Asian. 

I was watching Killing Eve the other night and as I do, went and read up on the show and was shocked to learn Sandra Oh was the first Asian women to be nominated for a Emmy for a leading role.  And up to 2017 only one Asian ever to win an acting Emmy.

I started thinking of how few meaty roles I have seen for Asians.

[rpn]

I favor a system in which all Americans owe a year of service to the military and/or public service.   I think that would help kids grow up fully, and help them understand the costs and benefits of freedom and get them some no hovering from parents survivor skills, and get a fully shared experience that helps them identify as Americans.

[Calm]

9 minutes ago, Nofear said:

Similar possible complications were cited when google did its pay equity analysis: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/04/technology/google-gender-pay-gap.html

 

Makes it complicated to determine a company's responsibility.  Should a company be penalized if it is the education or culture that makes it off balanced?  How to control for managers' interview views of different groups if it is not obvious (preferences as well as those who get harsher judgments)?

Inconsistent measures between studies adds to the confusion.

[Calm]

8 minutes ago, rpn said:

I favor a system in which all Americans owe a year of service to the military and/or public service.   I think that would help kids grow up fully, and help them understand the costs and benefits of freedom and get them some no hovering from parents survivor skills, and get a fully shared experience that helps them identify as Americans.

If public service is allowed, I am all for that.  I think there is too much mental, physical, and emotional differences to dump everyone into the military requirements (boot camp could have seriously damaged me in my late teens, early twenties because I just couldn't get to sleep before 2 am and low quality of sleep was leading to all sorts of health issues, including injuries and lack of muscle building up with extended exercise) could have managed a job that was from 4 to midnight easily enough I suspect, even 10-6 was likely workable).

Edited March 15, 2019 by Calm

[Nofear]

4 minutes ago, Calm said:

Inconsistent measures between studies adds to the confusion.

Lots of confusion; true that. Example: sociologists *still* don't know how to deal with the Nordic Gender Equity Paradox (when a society is more gender equitable, the genders more strongly differentiate along gender stereotype jobs/roles).

Example citation (but lots of sources, and the results are fairly robust in consistency with replication): https://www.thejournal.ie/gender-equality-countries-stem-girls-3848156-Feb2018/

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Storm Rider said:

Of course, the counter argument is that white men control everything  and still have jobs - look at Trump, who is a more vile individual and still wins office. 

It's a pretty strong counter argument, don't ya think?

There is the great pay inequity irony of the Netflix series The Crown, where Claire Foy, who played the main character Queen Elizabeth II (a woman navigating a man's realm) was payed less than Matt Smith, who played the Queen's husband Prince Phillip. Maybe the producers decided that it would add a dash of historical realism or something...

[let’s roll]

3 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's a pretty strong counter argument, don't ya think?

There is the great pay inequity irony of the Netflix series The Crown, where Claire Foy, who played the main character Queen Elizabeth II (a woman navigating a man's realm) was payed less than Matt Smith, who played the Queen's husband Prince Phillip. Maybe the producers decided that it would add a dash of historical realism or something...

Salaries aren’t dictated, they’re negotiated.  Ms. Foye was free to insist on being paid more than Mr. Smith but chose not to.  

[poptart]

49 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was watching Killing Eve the other night and as I do, went and read up on the show and was shocked to learn Sandra Oh was the first Asian women to be nominated for a Emmy for a leading role.  And up to 2017 only one Asian ever to win an acting Emmy.

I started thinking of how few meaty roles I have seen for Asians.

A bit of Irony, mom and I can be out eating and we'll be cheering on the Asian (We usually eat Asian food) and sometimes we'll get funny looks.  Besides Cheech and Chong, Harold and Kumar are two of my favorite actors, besides all parties involved being total stoners lol. (Minus the weed part, moms family still hates it.  Mom's relaxed just a bit, besides seeing a good chunk of my old friends have legal troubles living in CO has made her just not care)

45 minutes ago, Calm said:

Makes it complicated to determine a company's responsibility.  Should a company be penalized if it is the education or culture that makes it off balanced?  How to control for managers' interview views of different groups if it is not obvious (preferences as well as those who get harsher judgments)?

Inconsistent measures between studies adds to the confusion.

Look up how the Germans and the Swiss do it.  In Germany you can do Bundeswher (Military) or Medical.  The Swiss?  No idea.  I remember when I was there years ago seeing a lot of male and female people in BDU;s.  Cutest thing I saw while there, seeing these blonde women pass me on a bicycle with an assault rifle in the basket.  That's my idea of Girl power right there. 

[Nofear]

7 minutes ago, poptart said:

Cutest thing I saw while there, seeing these blonde women pass me on a bicycle with an assault rifle in the basket.  That's my idea of Girl power right there. 

Cute is having some visible indicator of the capability to easily kill someone? I suppose I learned that word differently.

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

Salaries aren’t dictated, they’re negotiated.  Ms. Foye was free to insist on being paid more than Mr. Smith but chose not to.  

Yes, silly naive woman thinking that as the star of the show she'd be paid the most.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/04/the-crown-claire-foy-pay-gap

At least, as she said, it "opened her eyes" and she learned that the system is inherently unfair and one has to fight for something that should be one's right by default.

[Gray]

[JLHPROF]

1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

It's a pretty strong counter argument, don't ya think?

There is the great pay inequity irony of the Netflix series The Crown, where Claire Foy, who played the main character Queen Elizabeth II (a woman navigating a man's realm) was payed less than Matt Smith, who played the Queen's husband Prince Phillip. Maybe the producers decided that it would add a dash of historical realism or something...

Or perhaps Mr. Smith was a bigger ratings draw than Ms. Foy, and therefore a bigger financial contributor to the production.

[strappinglad]

23 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

At least, as she said, it "opened her eyes" and she learned that the system is inherently unfair and one has to fight for something that should be one's right by default.

Sorry, but that is a very naïve argument. The system is" if you want something, earn it , demand it, take it "  It has always been thus .  Men have always had to fight for the right to lead. Welcome to world history. \

Out of curiousity , was Ms. Foy's agent male or female?

[let’s roll]

30 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Yes, silly naive woman thinking that as the star of the show she'd be paid the most.

https://www.vanityfair.com/hollywood/2018/04/the-crown-claire-foy-pay-gap

At least, as she said, it "opened her eyes" and she learned that the system is inherently unfair and one has to fight for something that should be one's right by default.

Silly and naive are your words not mine.  There’s absolutely nothing unfair about paying someone what they agree to be paid in an arms length negotiation.  I’m sure she was represented.  If she believed she merited receiving the highest salary on the show, she was certainly free to give those instructions to her agent.

I understand the producers were trying to help everyone save face after the fact, but if it’s true that Ms. Foye’s agent didn’t know what Mr. Smith was being paid, then I’ve definitely found someone I’m comfortable characterizing as silly and naive.

[Calm]

26 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Sorry, but that is a very naïve argument. The system is" if you want something, earn it , demand it, take it "  It has always been thus .  Men have always had to fight for the right to lead. Welcome to world history.

True, but when there is a huge pool to draw from and brute force or threats of blackmail are not an option, if those hiring find it acceptable for men to fight/push/compete, but find it unappealing in women (I don't know if this affects producers' opinions as it may in other fields), producers can always find another actor to fill the role if a woman pushes and feel justified because they can imagine others would find her unattractive as well.

When it is solely oneself that is the commodity being bought and sold and popularity is very dependent on being seen in venues one doesn't have a lot of control over, this is a different scenario than if one has the actual ability to physically or financially take something.  

There are plenty of actors who have earned it and probably have demanded it, but the glut of wannabes gives the producers/ investors heavy power.

Otoh, it could simply be one had a better agent who was more aware of how high the producers would be willing to go.  One situation doesn't really demonstrate it....unless they had the same agent, I am thinking.

which it appears they don't:

https://www.independenttalent.com/actors/claire-foy/ (though she may have fired her agent that negotiated that deal)

https://www.troikatalent.com/matt-smith

They are both highly rated:

https://www.stagemilk.com/best-acting-agencies-london/

Edited March 15, 2019 by Calm