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Dan'l Peterson and Moral Relativism

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On 3/14/2019 at 2:13 PM, USU78 said:

Read the article that's embedded in the OP.  There's an extended quote concerning a faith journey that begins in a New York theater watching a Nazi-era comedy  ...  but the German-Americans' response to the newsreel about the rape of Poland stunned the non-German-American watcher.

Here's the quote:

Quote

For Auden, the decisive moment came in 1939, in a German-language cinema in Yorkville, on the Upper East Side of Manhattan. He was there to see a comedy. But the feature film was preceded by a newsreel, told from the Nazi point of view, about recent events on the continent. “Ordinary, supposedly harmless Germans in the audience,” Auden later recounted, “were shouting ‘Kill the Poles.’” He was horrified. But he was also puzzled. He had long since decided that morality was a human invention in a godless world, so “I wondered then why I reacted as I did against this denial of every humanistic value.”

The problem is that our judgement of such matters is intrinsically tied to the culture and narrative.  It's especially impossible to judge the reaction to the newsreel without actually seeing it. 

For example, if the newsreel was "told from the Nazi point of view", then it no doubt presented the Polish people as aggressors and the wrong-doers in this situation.  So Auden would be making the judgment that the newsreel was unreliable.  That's no doubt a reasonable judgement, but I'm not going to base a universal view of morality on the ability of German people in a movie theater in 1939 to distinguish between Nazi propaganda and objectively presented facts.

Edited by cinepro
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Doble publicación.

Edited by cinepro

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53 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Doble publicación.

Zweideutige Veroeffentlichung?

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1 hour ago, cinepro said:

The problem is that our judgement of such matters is intrinsically tied to the culture and narrative.  It's especially impossible to judge the reaction to the newsreel without actually seeing it. 

Just how would one go about ridding oneself of one's "culture and narrative?"  I've never heard of anybody ever doing it.  Moreover, you appear to be dancing on the head of a Neoplatonic pin.  Help me out here.

Quote

For example, if the newsreel was "told from the Nazi point of view", then it no doubt presented the Polish people as aggressors and the wrong-doers in this situation.  So Auden would be making the judgment that the newsreel was unreliable.  That's no doubt a reasonable judgement, but I'm not going to base a universal view of morality on the ability of German people in a movie theater in 1939 to distinguish between Nazi propaganda and objectively presented facts.

You are working under the assumption that it was reasonable to believe that the Poles would have been stupid enough, given what just happened in Czechoslovakia not to mention the Anschluss, to attack the 3rd largest army in the world at the time with cavalry.  Actual horses.  Not horses hauling tanks that had become mired in the mud, but horses carrying sword-swinging hussars.  No reasonable person could possibly believe such a thing. 

Remember also that since 1851, at the end of the 1st Schleswig War against the Danes, the Germans by their demands in the treaty ending that war ensured the Danes would surely annex Schleswig proper into Denmark, rather than it remain a fief to pass outside Denmark upon the death of the Danish king, which surely would happen in 10 or 20 years.  Prussia and her allies demonstrated total war, blitzkrieg, schrecklichkeit, and devastation in 1864, and the Danes have never recovered to this day.  People were alive in Poland in 1938-39 who would remember what happened kitty corner from them in 1864, let alone what happened in 1870 and during WWI.  A near airtight argument can be made, has been made, and has never been refuted successfully that the Poles did nothing but exist as provocation for the Russo-German Polish Reduction Pact.  Thus it is not unreasonable and is indeed necessary for a reasonably well-informed and -educated person in 1939 to be horrified by the objectively evil Newsreel and the objectively evil response to it.

But you're right, I suppose, neither of us was there, either on the Oder or in that Yorkville theatre.

Edited by USU78
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4 hours ago, USU78 said:

Drive up 700 No in Logan through USU's main campus; hang a left at the light by the Eccles Music Building; drive about a block and pull into the parking lot by the Dairy Science Building; enter said building  and order yourself some at the Creamery.  Here is your link:  https://aggieicecream.usu.edu/  You're welcome.

Never been in Logan, but next time for sure.... ;)

 

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

Just how would one go about ridding oneself of one's "culture and narrative?"  I've never heard of anybody ever doing it.  Moreover, you appear to be dancing on the head of a Neoplatonic pin.  Help me out here.

You are working under the assumption that it was reasonable to believe that the Poles would have been stupid enough, given what just happened in Czechoslovakia not to mention the Anschluss, to attack the 3rd largest army in the world at the time with cavalry.  Actual horses.  Not horses hauling tanks that had become mired in the mud, but horses carrying sword-swinging hussars.  No reasonable person could possibly believe such a thing. 

Remember also that since 1851, at the end of the 1st Schleswig War against the Danes, the Germans by their demands in the treaty ending that war ensured the Danes would surely annex Schleswig proper into Denmark, rather than it remain a fief to pass outside Denmark upon the death of the Danish king, which surely would happen in 10 or 20 years.  Prussia and her allies demonstrated total war, blitzkrieg, schrecklichkeit, and devastation in 1864, and the Danes have never recovered to this day.  People were alive in Poland in 1938-39 who would remember what happened kitty corner from them in 1864, let alone what happened in 1870 and during WWI.  A near airtight argument can be made, has been made, and has never been refuted successfully that the Poles did nothing but exist as provocation for the Russo-German Polish Reduction Pact.  Thus it is not unreasonable and is indeed necessary for a reasonably well-informed and -educated person in 1939 to be horrified by the objectively evil Newsreel and the objectively evil response to it.

But you're right, I suppose, neither of us was there, either on the Oder or in that Yorkville theatre.

You are clearly misstating the technological superiority of the Polish army. 

You have distinctly ignored one ubiquitous item available to every householder, and that was his pitchfork.

;)

I mean maybe they weren't so good against tanks but one unarmed Nazi by himself without any gear... lookout! 

And those things were Sharp!!

;)

My great-grandfather was drafted into the Prussian army under Bismarck. 

Fat Chance he'd put up with that.

He came to America and so here I am.

Edited by mfbukowski
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7 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

It is and subject to the same deadly problems that show it cannot work.

You can prove anything you like with the ontological argument.

I am still on the quest for the best chocolate ice cream because I know it must exist somewhere and somehow in the universe. ;)

Ultimately the problem comes from the Greek notion that "perfect" means "complete."

And something cannot be complete unless it exists.

Therefore perfection must exist somewhere just like my chocolate ice cream.

I'm still looking.

Them old Greeks sure messed up Western philosophy for two thousand years. ;)

Now that we know it's all semantic confusion we are getting better.

Thanks Wittgenstein!

I’m looking for something better than chocolate ice cream......the perfect kielbasa. I’l let you know when I find it. 🍽😘

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6 hours ago, USU78 said:

Not horses hauling tanks that had become mired in the mud, but horses carrying sword-swinging hussars.  No reasonable person could possibly believe such a thing. 
 

Who said anything about a group of Germans watching German-produced newsreel footage in 1939 being reasonable?

If objective morality depends on people being reasonable, then it doesn't exist.

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m looking for something better than chocolate ice cream......the perfect kielbasa. I’l let you know when I find it. 🍽😘

The Broadway Market Buffalo NY would be a great place to start. ;) it's been there for probably a hundred years or more. My great-grandfather was one of the founders.

Besides Easter,  Dyngus is coming!!

https://www.dyngusday.com/

http://broadwaymarket.org/?p=4237

 

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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59 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Who said anything about a group of Germans watching German-produced newsreel footage in 1939 being reasonable?

If objective morality depends on people being reasonable, then it doesn't exist.

Korihors have that effect on people

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12 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

The Broadway Market Buffalo NY would be a great place to start. ;) it's been there for probably a hundred years or more. My great-grandfather was one of the founders.

Besides Easter,  Dyngus is coming!!

https://www.dyngusday.com/

http://broadwaymarket.org/?p=4237

Thought it was an Italian-Irish thing:  https://www.imdb.com/title/tt0065642/

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