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MiserereNobis

Pope Francis and President Nelson (and Catholic/Mormon history)

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33 minutes ago, Calm said:

There hasn't been a minister since 1990.

Yes, that is my recollection. So were there both a minister and Lucifer before 1990? I am having memory issues here. But then again, I didn't go often enough to the temple, at the most, 2 or 3 times a year for the Endowment session. 

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26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

So were there both a minister and Lucifer before 1990? 

Yes

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Posted (edited)
17 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

In view of the pot stirring that has transpired on this thread surrounding some antiquated writing by Bruce R. McConkie regarding the Catholic Church, writing that was removed from publication by the author over 50 years ago and which never did have the Church’s imprimatur, I present in its entirety, the following Deseret News column written back in 2010 by Daniel Peterson. My purpose in posting it will be self evident, I believe. It relates an incident from early Utah history which some here, no doubt, will be already acquainted with but which bears repeating, notwithstanding. Professor Peterson tells it very well. 

Mormon-Catholic tolerance goes back to Brigham Young

Published: March 4, 2010 12:20 am

During his forum address at Brigham Young University on Feb. 23, Francis Cardinal George, head of the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops, mentioned last year's participation by President Thomas S. Monson and the Mormon Tabernacle Choir in the centennial celebrations for Salt Lake City's Catholic Cathedral of the Madeleine. He wondered aloud whether Brigham Young and Lawrence Scanlan, the first Catholic bishop of Utah, would have been shocked at such cordial relations.The relationship between The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Catholic Church has obviously grown closer during recent decades, and not merely in Utah. The two churches increasingly work together on social issues, for example, and have long cooperated on humanitarian projects. But I suspect that President Young and Bishop Scanlan would have been less shocked than Cardinal George assumed. There is a story here that few Catholics and Latter-day Saints know.By the late 1860s, Mormon isolation in Utah was ending. Jewish merchants and businessmen arrived, for instance, as early as 1854. Strong Jewish-Mormon friendships grew, and Brigham Young more than once opened Mormon church buildings to Jewish religious services. In their turn, Catholics first came to Utah in 1862, as members of the California Volunteers. In 1866, when Father Edward Kelly sought a place to celebrate Mass, Mormon leaders permitted him to use the old tabernacle on today's Temple Square, and Brigham Young helped him to obtain clear title to land for the first Catholic church in the city. On May 10, 1869, the Union and Central Pacific Railroads met at Promontory Summit, not far from Brigham City, Utah, thus creating the first transcontinental railroad in American history and, with this, non-Mormon denominations began to establish themselves even more securely in Utah Territory. Though Catholics and Latter-day Saints differed theologically, they were generally friendly with one another. Thus, for example, not long after then-Father Scanlan arrived in Utah in 1873, he was invited by Mormon leaders in St. George, Utah, to use their tabernacle for worship. However, he feared that some of the liturgy would need to be omitted since it called for a choir singing in Latin. But he was soon surprised to discover that the director of the St. George Tabernacle's choir had ordered the appropriate music and was preparing his group to perform it, in Latin, in two weeks. Accordingly, on May 18,1873 a Catholic high Mass was sung by a Mormon choir in the St. George Tabernacle. Plainly, although none can deny some harsh rhetoric over the years, Mormon respect for Catholics long predates the 2009 centennial of the Cathedral of the Madeleine. In fact, it dates to the days of Joseph Smith himself. Referring to the mob burning of the Ursuline Convent near Boston in 1834, Joseph remarked:"The early settlers of Boston . . . who had fled from their mother country to avoid persecution and death, soon became so lost to principles of justice and religious liberty as to whip and hang the Baptist and the Quaker, who, like themselves, had fled from tyranny to a land of freedom; and the Fathers of Salem, from 1691 to 1693, whipped, imprisoned, tortured, and hung many of their citizens for supposed witchcraft; and quite recently, while boasting of her light and knowledge, of her laws and religion, as surpassed by none on earth, has New England been guilty of burning a Catholic convent in the vicinity of Charlestown, and of scattering the inmates to the four winds; yes, in sight of the very spot where the fire of the American Independence was first kindled, where a monument is now erecting in memory of the battle of Bunker Hill, and the fate of the immortal Warren, who bled, who died on those sacred heights, to purchase religious liberty for his country; in sight of this very spot, have the religionists of the nineteenth century demolished a noble brick edifice, hurling its inhabitants forth upon a cold, unfeeling world for protection and subsistence.""The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said," Joseph told his followers in a sermon delivered less than two weeks before he himself was murdered by a mob. A strong foundation for friendship and respect toward Catholics was laid down in the earliest years of Mormonism.

I’ve really been reading about this topic and appreciate you posting this.  Thanks and very interesting!

So I’m honestly asking you why you think Brigham Young and other Prophets and leaders (including McConkie) then wrote what they did about the Catholic Church?  What changed (if anything) to cause them to believe and teach what they did?

Edited by JulieM
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11 hours ago, JulieM said:

I’ve really been reading about this topic and appreciate you posting this.  Thanks and very interesting!

So I’m honestly asking you why you think Brigham Young and other Prophets and leaders (including McConkie) then wrote what they did about the Catholic Church?  What changed (if anything) to cause them to believe and teach what they did?

Mitochondrial antiPapist Protestantism. It is hard to root out.

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12 hours ago, JulieM said:

I’ve really been reading about this topic and appreciate you posting this.  Thanks and very interesting!

So I’m honestly asking you why you think Brigham Young and other Prophets and leaders (including McConkie) then wrote what they did about the Catholic Church?  What changed (if anything) to cause them to believe and teach what they did?

 

25 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Mitochondrial antiPapist Protestantism. It is hard to root out.

I could only speculate, but what USU78 suggests here strikes me as a reasonable if not likely explanation.

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Read elsewhere that the former door with the cross on the temple, is now gone. Does anyone know why?

Image

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I would have to see a fuller closeup front image, but from the various pictures I am looking at, it could be so it better matches the windows above without chopping up,the door into too small sections.

It could be someone though the cross effect was inappropriate though.

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From the DN article quoted above.

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""The old Catholic church traditions are worth more than all you have said," Joseph told his followers in a sermon delivered less than two weeks before he himself was murdered by a mob. A strong foundation for friendship and respect toward Catholics was laid down in the earliest years of Mormonism.

If McConkie was simply wrong, who then is the angel talking about in 1 Ne 14?

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And it came to pass that he said unto me: Look, and behold that great and abominable church, which is the mother of abominations, whose founder is the devil.

10 And he said unto me: Behold there are save two churches only; the one is the church of the Lamb of God, and the other is the church of the devil; wherefore, whoso belongeth not to the church of the Lamb of God belongeth to that great church, which is the mother of abominations; and she is the whore of all the earth.

11 And it came to pass that I looked and beheld the whore of all the earth, and she sat upon many waters; and she had dominion over all the earth, among all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people.

12 And it came to pass that I beheld the church of the Lamb of God, and its numbers were few, because of the wickedness and abominations of the whore who sat upon many waters; nevertheless, I beheld that the church of the Lamb, who were the saints of God, were also upon all the face of the earth; and their dominions upon the face of the earth were small, because of the wickedness of the great whore whom I saw.

13 And it came to pass that I beheld that the great mother of abominations did gather together multitudes upon the face of all the earth, among all the nations of the Gentiles, to fight against the Lamb of God.

14 And it came to pass that I, Nephi, beheld the power of the Lamb of God, that it descended upon the saints of the church of the Lamb, and upon the covenant people of the Lord, who were scattered upon all the face of the earth; and they were armed with righteousness and with the power of God in great glory.

15 And it came to pass that I beheld that the wrath of God was poured out upon that great and abominable church, insomuch that there were wars and rumors of wars among all the nations and kindreds of the earth.

16 And as there began to be wars and rumors of wars among all the nations which belonged to the mother of abominations, the angel spake unto me, saying: Behold, the wrath of God is upon the mother of harlots; and behold, thou seest all these things—

17 And when the day cometh that the wrath of God is poured out upon the mother of harlots, which is the great and abominable church of all the earth, whose founder is the devil, then, at that day, the work of the Father shall commence, in preparing the way for the fulfilling of his covenants, which he hath made to his people who are of the house of Israel.

Or which church is our current Gospel Principles "The Church of Jesus Christ in Former Times" talking about here?

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Soon pagan beliefs dominated the thinking of those called Christians. The Roman emperor adopted this false Christianity as the state religion. This church was very different from the church Jesus organized. It taught that God was a being without form or substance.

These people lost the understanding of God’s love for us. They did not know that we are His children. They did not understand the purpose of life. Many of the ordinances were changed because the priesthood and revelation were no longer on the earth.

The emperor chose his own leaders and sometimes called them by the same titles used by priesthood leaders in the true Church of Christ. There were no Apostles or other priesthood leaders with power from God, and there were no spiritual gifts. The prophet Isaiah had foreseen this condition, prophesying, “The earth also is defiled under the inhabitants thereof; because they have transgressed the laws, changed the ordinance, broken the everlasting covenant” (Isaiah 24:5). It was the Church of Jesus Christ no longer; it was a church of men. Even the name had been changed

And Talmadge, in his seminal book Jesus the Christ, a book still carried by our missionaries today has multiple quotes like this.

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During the twelfth and thirteenth century the temporal authority of the pope was superior to that of kings and emperors; and the Roman Church became the despotic potentate of nations, and an autocrat above all secular states. Yet this church, reeking with the stench of worldly ambition, and lust of dominance, audaciously claimed to be the church established by Him who affirmed: "My kingdom is not of this world". The arrogant assumptions of the Church of Rome were not less extravagant in spiritual than in secular administration. In her loudly asserted control over the spiritual destinies of the souls of men, she blasphemously pretended to forgive or retain individual sins, and to inflict or remit penalties both on earth and beyond the grave. She sold permission to commit sin and bartered for gold charters of indulgent forgiveness for sins already done. Her pope, proclaiming himself the vicar of God, sat in state to judge as God Himself; and by such blasphemy fulfilled the prophecy of Paul following his warning in relation to the awful conditions antecedent to the second coming of the Christ

It's great that we get along with them when we meet in real life but we are still teaching some pretty harsh things about them.

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35 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

These people lost the understanding of God’s love for us. ... there were no spiritual gifts.

These are weird claims from that book. Christians didn't understand God's love? No spiritual gifts? Those are monstrously large claims about billions of people covering roughly 2000 years. I'd wager the claims are false :) 

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On 3/12/2019 at 5:20 PM, bluebell said:

There is a person who portrays satan, but he's not affiliated with any church or religion.  He's just regular old satan as he's spoken of in the Garden of Eden in the bible.

Except he's very richly dressed!  Quite stylish!  😈

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