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MiserereNobis

Pope Francis and President Nelson (and Catholic/Mormon history)

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You've posted more than in this thread on this day on this discussion board, n'est-ce pas?  

Once again, this is a discussion board and I was responding to posts by other members here.  I'm not sure what my one post on one other thread has to do with anything (regarding a hymn sung by the Tabernacle Choir)?

I think it's time for you to move on unless you have anything of substance to post regarding the facts I posted on this topic.

Edited by ALarson

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2 minutes ago, the narrator said:

The real estate of the Vatican itself is only worth about $1 billion, not counting it's priceless art.

Wikipedia lists the net worth of the Catholic Church in Vatican City as $30 billion. That's just the Vatican, of course. Add in all of the other Catholic dioceses and you've got a pile o' money on your hands.

And yeah, toss in the priceless art, too :) 

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1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Once again, this is a discussion board and I was responding to posts by other members here.  I'm not sure what my one post on one other thread has to do with anything (regarding a hymn sung by the Tabernacle Choir).

I think it's time for you to move on unless you have anything of substance to post regarding the facts I posted on this topic.

Yes, master.  Don't beat me, master.  Don't tell Mom on me, master.

Any other demands?

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, hope_for_things said:

Ha, thats totally funny.  Do you think there is some discomfort from the Vatican with Mormons coming to their city and building a temple and meeting with the Pope. 

I can't even find any articles on this Vatican News site about the visit.  I searched for "LDS", "Mormon", "Latter-day", "Latter", "Nelson".  Nothing that I could find at all.  

I don't think this is big news for them (or for many members of the Catholic Church).  I have some friends who are Catholic and I asked them what they knew about our new temple being built in Italy.  They responded that they had heard a Mormon temple was being built in Rome, but didn't know much about it.  I told them to look it up....it's beautiful and members are thrilled about it!

We have to remember how they most likely view us.  I feel they are respectful, but they believe that they are the true church :) 

Edited by ALarson
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30 minutes ago, USU78 said:

You're serious here?  Do you have any notion of the scale of the real estate holdings of the RC, its dioceses, its parishes, and its subsidiary entities?  Even in the US, where the Church has just over 2.1% of the total population, the RC has membership more than 10 times that number, with real estate holdings to services that membership commensurate with that population.

Perhaps you were making a joke.

Not making a joke. While the Catholic Church has a lot of real estate directly used by it members or for its charities, only a fraction of the LDS Church's real estate is owned for worship or other "religious" purposes. The vast majority of its real estate is for financial investment, business, and for welfare farms, and the purchases in the last couple decades for the purpose of financial investments have dramatically increased. Furthermore, while the Vatican frequently operates at a deficit, only bringing in 1/100th in donations of what the LDS Church brings in through tithes, IIRC most of the LDS Church's expenditures are paid with the interests made by investing it's $7 billion in annual tithing revenue. I was recently told by someone who is generally in the know that the total assets of the LDS Church right now is at $630 billion.

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18 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Wikipedia lists the net worth of the Catholic Church in Vatican City as $30 billion. That's just the Vatican, of course. Add in all of the other Catholic dioceses and you've got a pile o' money on your hands.

And yeah, toss in the priceless art, too :) 

Yeah, the $30 billion includes it's bank and financial investments.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Not making a joke. {snipsies}

Never mind.

Edited by USU78
Never mind.

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32 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't think this is big news for them (or for many members of the Catholic Church).  I have some friends who are Catholic and I asked them what they knew about our new temple being built in Italy.  They responded that they had heard a Mormon temple was being built in Rome, but didn't know much about it.  I told them to look it up....it's beautiful and members are thrilled about it!

We have to remember how they most likely view us.  I feel they are respectful, but they believe that they are the true church :) 

Maybe if the top leaders of the Rastafarian religion came and met with the CoJCoLDS leaders, this would be an equivalent example that wouldn't even register an article for the DNews.  Who knows...  

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31 minutes ago, hope_for_things said:

Maybe if the top leaders of the Rastafarian religion came and met with the CoJCoLDS leaders, this would be an equivalent example that wouldn't even register an article for the DNews.  Who knows...  

Now that would be cool...

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

It seems there is a character in the temple ceremony who is some sort of priest/preacher and is connected to the devil. Is it possible to tell me more about that or would that be going into too much detail? I'm just intrigued because it's been brought up a few times now and I am wondering what the character's purpose was -- what teaching was being made.

I'm not looking to be offended, just to be clear :) I'm just curious.

 

He was removed in 1990, iirc, had a very limited part and was presented imo and iirc as an bland (personality wise) character who represented how the world often chooses their ministers rather than how God calls them.

Hopefully that provides some context while remaining vague enough for a public forum. A former stake patriarch (he gives blessings for spiritual guidance to older youth and adults) taught my ward that we should talk more about what went on in the temple, especially with our children, but carefully choose the time or place.  If this was face to face, I would feel comfortable about answering your questions because you show respect and understanding here though I know many who wouldn’t. With the Church putting out a video online showing temple clothing, I see it as confirmation to share what is taught, without using specific language in appropriate situations. 

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Yeah. Just silly to disapprove of pot stirring. 

There are nonmembers here who are less aware of the context of that false belief in our culture and one at least who is rightly interested. I don’t see sharing the history of that belief as pot stirring. 

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2 hours ago, USU78 said:

I've stated my views on the court jester.

I brought up the minister in the temple, blame me.

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5 hours ago, ALarson said:

Many I knew felt he was a Catholic Priest (or at least that it was implied or hinted at....I think it was just an assumption some made....I know my parents believed this).  I always just felt he was a generic representation.  But for sure, members used to believe the Catholic church was the great and abominable church.  I know what Bruce R. McConkie wrote and published about the Catholic Church caused many to believe that.  (I'll look for the quote regarding what he stated.)  I think there's still a bit of a carry over (mainly the older members) still, but it's been made clear we do not believe that now. 

It's great to see the relationship and feelings now.  These pictures are really cool to see!

ETA:

Here's what McConkie stated:

The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.”

"As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

I know that my parent's generation really loved McConkie's book and I'd see them looking things up often to see what "doctrine" he'd defined or made more clear.  I think that part was removed in the second edition.

There are also these quotes that some were familiar with which lead to this belief:

 

Early in my marriage, my husband believed every word of the Mormon Doctrine book and taught me out of it, and I remember distinctly thinking it sounded awful. Now he doesn't believe it, but was sad to see a Mormon Doctrine paperback in my son's missionary stuff back in 2008! So I guess the mission still had missionaries reading it? Not sure, but glad it's not distributed at Deseret Book any longer. But maybe like you said, the 2nd edition has that stuff taken out, but my husband had the 1st edition.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, USU78 said:

I agree, and the worst you could say about him is that he was an amiable dunce.  The comic relief in the middle of all of the grand cosmic drama.  Papageno comes to mind, in the middle of that masonic opera.

He was a product of his time, and with time the church continues to evolve to be a more loving church, thankfully. And at one time the cross was considered to be a bad thing to wear or portray as well.  My former neighbor said it was of Satan when I discussed with her that I thought wearing the cross was fine. She looked at me like I was crazy. It's just what each of us were taught from different angles.

Edited by Tacenda

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38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I brought up the minister in the temple, blame me.

I don't mind it in the slightest.

Larson went a different direction, but we're all bored with that.

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26 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He was a product of his time, and with time the church continues to evolve to be a more loving church, thankfully. And at one time the cross was considered to be a bad thing to wear or portray as well.  My former neighbor said it was of Satan when I discussed with her that I thought wearing the cross was fine. She looked at me like I was crazy. It's just what each of us were taught from different angles.

"More loving?" Why not call it what it is: less terrified.

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Posted (edited)
59 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I brought up the minister in the temple, blame me.

You're fine.  Some are just afraid for some reason to give some history and discuss the truth when something is brought up or some have questions about topics.  There are reasons behind why you felt as you did and you're not alone.  It's all part of the discussion if we are willing to openly discuss topics.

Edited by ALarson

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41 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

He was a product of his time, and with time the church continues to evolve to be a more loving church, thankfully. And at one time the cross was considered to be a bad thing to wear or portray as well.  My former neighbor said it was of Satan when I discussed with her that I thought wearing the cross was fine. She looked at me like I was crazy. It's just what each of us were taught from different angles.

I've not heard that it's "of Satan", but I do think most members still shy away from wearing a cross and we don't have them on top of our churches.  We also don't have crucifixes or pictures in our churches (or statues) portraying Christ's death.  I would really love it though if members felt more comfortable wearing jewelry with the cross symbol.

I do love how we celebrate the living Christ.

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Posted (edited)
26 minutes ago, USU78 said:

I don't mind it in the slightest.

Larson went a different direction, but we're all bored with that.

Some find knowing background details to be interesting.  I’m always interested in knowing why certain beliefs or traditions got started.  Alarson didn’t go in “a different direction” but added to the discussion, in my opinion. You still can’t say what he posted that was not the truth but continue to complain about it.

Many younger members may not know why their parents believe or think things still to this day.  I enjoy learning about that.

Edited by JulieM
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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

Early in my marriage, my husband believed every word of the Mormon Doctrine book and taught me out of it, and I remember distinctly thinking it sounded awful. Now he doesn't believe it, but was sad to see a Mormon Doctrine paperback in my son's missionary stuff back in 2008! So I guess the mission still had missionaries reading it? Not sure, but glad it's not distributed at Deseret Book any longer. But maybe like you said, the 2nd edition has that stuff taken out, but my husband had the 1st edition.

On my mission we were strongly encouraged to have and study Mormon Doctrine.  It was one of the handful of books the mission home had available for purchase.  The only other book I remember the mission stocking was Jesus the Christ.  There might have been a few others.  

I still have my copy with all the raw teachings that were included in those early additions.  Members now days really can't pretend those teachings didn't exist or that the church to some extent pushed studying Mormon Doctrine at least on their missionaries.

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9 minutes ago, california boy said:

On my mission we were strongly encouraged to have and study Mormon Doctrine.  It was one of the handful of books the mission home had available for purchase.  The only other book I remember the mission stocking was Jesus the Christ.  There might have been a few others.  

I still have my copy with all the raw teachings that were included in those early additions.  Members now days really can't pretend those teachings didn't exist or that the church to some extent pushed studying Mormon Doctrine at least on their missionaries.

we were encouraged to bring Mormon Doctrine, Jesus the Christ, and I believe "The Miracle of forgiveness" on our missions

 

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I've not heard that it's "of Satan", but I do think most members still shy away from wearing a cross and we don't have them on top of our churches.  We also don't have crucifixes or pictures in our churches (or statues) portraying Christ's death.  I would really love it though if members felt more comfortable wearing jewelry with the cross symbol.

I do love how we celebrate the living Christ.

I do as well, but my sister who is inactive wears a cross at all times that is one that is sideways, I guess to show the concept that it is finished or something. 

I may have a faulty memory of my neighbor but she sure acted like it was of the devil to wear the cross for some odd reason, but as was quoted of Bruce R. McConkie, he did mention that the Catholics were Satanic or something, so maybe that is where my neighbor got it. 

Edited by Tacenda

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Posted (edited)
25 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I do as well, but my sister who is inactive wears a cross at all times that is one that is sideways, I guess to show the concept that it is finished or something. 

I may have a faulty memory of my neighbor but she sure acted like it was of the devil to wear the cross for some odd reason, but as was quoted of Bruce R. McConkie, he did mention that the Catholics were Satanic or something, so maybe that is where my neighbor got it. 

Maybe this was the passage from Mormon Doctrine 1st edition that gave your neighbor that idea.

Quote

Worship of Images. See APOSTASY, FALSE GODS, IDOLATRY, TEN COMMANDMENTS. Catholics worship images- not just false gods or a concept of Deity which is apostate and untrue -but out and out, plainly and simply stated, they worship the actual images of the so-called saints which are everywhere found in their cathedrals and other buildings. In their own encyclopedia they make careful recitation of their belief that there are two kinds of worship, the supreme adoration reserved for Deity only and the lesser adoration and worship given the images of their saints and such symbols as the cross: 

or this one.

Quote

Sign of the Cross. See APOSTASY, CHRIST, CROSS. As part of their worship, members and priests of that great church which is not the Lord's Church make the sign of the cross. In doing so they draw a cross in the air with the right hand beginning at their foreheads. Their purpose is to show devoutness in worship or to consecrate and bless persons or objects. This religious formality is without scriptural or divine warrant. Indeed many see in it at least a partial fulfilment of John's vision in which he saw that the great apostate beast would cause "all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: And that no man. might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name." (Rev. 13.) 

There is a book by a someone who used to post here, Mike Reed, on this very topic.

Banishing the Cross: The Emergence of a Mormon Taboo

Edited by CA Steve

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Posted (edited)
2 hours ago, Calm said:

There are nonmembers here who are less aware of the context of that false belief in our culture and one at least who is rightly interested. I don’t see sharing the history of that belief as pot stirring. 

Sharing the history is one thing. Repeatedly dredging it up as though it were a live issue a half-century after the fact is another. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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54 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

we were encouraged to bring Mormon Doctrine, Jesus the Christ, and I believe "The Miracle of forgiveness" on our missions

 

 

When did you serve? I question your memory on Mormon Doctrine. 

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