Pope Francis and President Nelson (and Catholic/Mormon history)

[Scott Lloyd]

16 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I have been on vacation for a week. I'm sure it's been nice to not hear negative comments from me for a time and I feel sort of bad for bringing this up. But I didn't much care for the statue of the Saviour that was given to the Pope. It reminded me of the Christus that Relief Society sisters bought at RS meetings in the 80's. But if I had seen the front of it, it was probably something different. It seemed a little too little of a gift. But it's not about the money I guess, but the thought behind it. ETA: We do have our past as well, but surely it doesn't coincide with how the early church leaders felt about the Catholics. Trying to keep on the topic. 

 

15 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I liked that it was small. I mean, it is the Vatican -- they have more than enough large statues. And what kind of statue can you give the guy who has Michelangelo's Pieta?  

As I recall from my reading of the news, the statuette given to the pope was made by Lladro. Now, I’m no expert on ceramic sculpture, but my understanding is that Lladro’s work is high-end, quite a bit highr in value and quality from those Tacenda remembers the women in her ward buying (yes, I’m acquainted with those).

That said, it is to MiserereNobis’s credit that he is not focusing on the gift’s monetary value or grandeur, but rather it’s meaning, which I could discuss here, but I leave that for another occasion. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[Calm]

10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think you mean to say that the preacher that represented the churches of the world wore a collar - at no time was the "preacher" identified as a Catholic priest.

Looked and sounded more Protestant to me.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Looked and sounded more Protestant to me.

Definitely generic. 

[USU78]

6 hours ago, Calm said:

Looked and sounded more Protestant to me.

The words were the words of an American frontier parson. Nothing remotely RC about him 

[ALarson]

11 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think you mean to say that the preacher that represented the churches of the world wore a collar - at no time was the "preacher" identified as a Catholic priest.

Many I knew felt he was a Catholic Priest (or at least that it was implied or hinted at....I think it was just an assumption some made....I know my parents believed this).  I always just felt he was a generic representation.  But for sure, members used to believe the Catholic church was the great and abominable church.  I know what Bruce R. McConkie wrote and published about the Catholic Church caused many to believe that.  (I'll look for the quote regarding what he stated.)  I think there's still a bit of a carry over (mainly the older members) still, but it's been made clear we do not believe that now. 

It's great to see the relationship and feelings now.  These pictures are really cool to see!

ETA:

Here's what McConkie stated:

The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.”

"As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

I know that my parent's generation really loved McConkie's book and I'd see them looking things up often to see what "doctrine" he'd defined or made more clear.  I think that part was removed in the second edition.

There are also these quotes that some were familiar with which lead to this belief:

Quote

“The Roman Catholic, Greek, and Protestant church, is the great corrupt, ecclesiastical power, represented by great Babylon….” (Orson Pratt, Orson Pratt, Writings of an Apostle, “Divine Authenticity,” no.6, p.84).

Quote

“Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the “whore of Babylon” whom the lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness.” (Pratt, The Seer, p.255)

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Many I knew felt he was a Catholic Priest (or at least that it was implied or hinted at....I think it was just an assumption some made....I know my parents believed this).  I always just felt he was a generic representation.  But for sure, members used to believe the Catholic church was the great and abominable church.  I know what Bruce R. McConkie wrote and published about the Catholic Church caused many to believe that.  (I'll look for the quote regarding what he stated.)  I think there's still a bit of a carry over (mainly the older members) still, but it's been made clear we do not believe that now. 

It's great to see the relationship and feelings now.  These pictures are really cool to see!

ETA:

Here's what McConkie stated:

The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.”

"As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

I know that my parent's generation really loved McConkie's book and I'd see them looking things up often to see what "doctrine" he'd defined or made more clear.  I think that part was removed in the second edition.

There are also these quotes that some were familiar with which lead to this belief:

 

Some might regard me these days as an “older member.” I don’t believe what Elder McConkie wrote in that quote, nor did I ever. It never appeared in printings of the book published after 1966, fully a half-century ago. I’m not aware of any members who believe it these days. 

I think it’s time we left this in the past and stopped dredging it up. 

Edited March 11, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[ALarson]

15 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Some might regard me these days as an “older member.” I don’t believe what Elder McConkie wrote in that quote, nor did I ever. It never appeared in printings of the book published after 1966, fully a half-century ago. I’m not aware of any members who believe it these days. 

Oh, there's still a lingering of those feelings (my experience has been it's almost all from the older generations ....the younger ones are not really even aware of it though, IMO).  But we cannot say that it was never taught by our leaders, it was.  Bruce R. McConkie was one of the First Council of Seventies (and later an Apostle) and Orson Pratt was an Apostle.  

We can't simply ignore that it was taught and believed by many at one time.  It's part of our history and the quotes explain why there are still even members today who remember those teachings.  

Edited March 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Tacenda]

10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

 

As I recall from my reading of the news, the statuette given to the pope was made by Lladro. Now, I’m no expert on ceramic sculpture, but my understanding is that Lladro’s work is high-end, quite a bit highr in value and quality from those Tacenda remembers the women in her ward buying (yes, I’m acquainted with those).

That said, it is to MiserereNobis’s credit that he is not focusing on the gift’s monetary value or grandeur, but rather it’s meaning, which I could discuss here, but I leave that for another occasion. 

Good to know Scott, thanks for the info on the statuette.

[Scott Lloyd]

23 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh, there's still a lingering of those feelings (my experience has been it's almost all from the older generations ....the younger ones are not really even aware of it though, IMO).  But we cannot say that it was never taught by our leaders, it was.  Bruce R. McConkie was one of the First Council of Seventies (and later an Apostle) and Orson Pratt was an Apostle.  

We can't simply ignore that it was taught and believed by many at one time.  It's part of our history and the quotes explain why there are still even members today who remember those teachings.  

Elder McConkie removed that quote from his book many years before he became an apostle. I know of no instance of his teaching that idea during his apostleship. 

[ALarson]

1 minute ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Elder McConkie removed that quote from his book many years before he became an apostle. I know of no instance of his teaching that idea during his apostleship. 

And, I did not make that claim....did I?  I stated: 

Quote

Bruce R. McConkie was one of the First Council of Seventies (and later an Apostle) 

But either way, we cannot claim it was never taught by any of our leaders....it was.  No reason to deny it.

There are also many quotes similar regarding Christians and Christendom.  We no longer teach those as well.

Edited March 11, 2019 by ALarson

[Storm Rider]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Many I knew felt he was a Catholic Priest (or at least that it was implied or hinted at....I think it was just an assumption some made....I know my parents believed this).  I always just felt he was a generic representation.  But for sure, members used to believe the Catholic church was the great and abominable church.  I know what Bruce R. McConkie wrote and published about the Catholic Church caused many to believe that.  (I'll look for the quote regarding what he stated.)  I think there's still a bit of a carry over (mainly the older members) still, but it's been made clear we do not believe that now. 

It's great to see the relationship and feelings now.  These pictures are really cool to see!

ETA:

Here's what McConkie stated:

The first edition of LDS Church general authority Bruce R. McConkie's Mormon Doctrine stated: "It is also to the Book of Mormon to which we turn for the plainest description of the Catholic Church as the great and abominable church. Nephi saw this ‘church which was the most abominable above all other churches’ in vision. He ‘saw the devil that he was the foundation of it’ and also the murders, wealth, harlotry, persecutions, and evil desires that historically have been a part of this satanic organization.”

"As McConkie's book became popular, the belief that the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church "became embedded in popular [Mormon] belief, despite the fact that this idea was never sanctioned or preached over the pulpit."

I know that my parent's generation really loved McConkie's book and I'd see them looking things up often to see what "doctrine" he'd defined or made more clear.  I think that part was removed in the second edition.

There are also these quotes that some were familiar with which lead to this belief:

 

McConkie certainly stated that he thought the Catholic Church was the church of the devil; however, that position was never taught by the Church as doctrine. As you stated, many members also thought this same thing. As others have stated, it was an earlier Protestant teaching of the 1800s and carried on into the 20th century in the USA. 

At one time I referred quite often to McConkie's book Mormon Doctrine. However, as time passed in the 80s the less I used it. I was more moved by McConkie's teachings later in his life rather than his earlier positions. 

As far as the temple films go - he came across as far more to me as Protestant preacher rather than a Catholic. The character's delivery was always more Protestant in nature rather than Catholic. 

[USU78]

49 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Some might regard me these days as an “older member.” I don’t believe what Elder McConkie wrote in that quote, nor did I ever. It never appeared in printings of the book published after 1966, fully a half-century ago. I’m not aware of any members who believe it these days. 

I think it’s time we left this in the past and stopped dredging it up. 

Ah, well, that's the thing, isn't it?  If you can't come up with something more recent to be enraged about, and you're determined to be enraged, go find a relic of the XIXth Century "war of words" over religion and impute the words to your neighbors and family members.  Seems like too much effort to me.

[Scott Lloyd]

2 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Ah, well, that's the thing, isn't it?  If you can't come up with something more recent to be enraged about, and you're determined to be enraged, go find a relic of the XIXth Century "war of words" over religion and impute the words to your neighbors and family members.  Seems like too much effort to me.

It is indeed stretching. 

[USU78]

2 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

As far as the temple films go - he came across as far more to me as Protestant preacher rather than a Catholic. The character's delivery was always more Protestant in nature rather than Catholic. 

I agree, and the worst you could say about him is that he was an amiable dunce.  The comic relief in the middle of all of the grand cosmic drama.  Papageno comes to mind, in the middle of that masonic opera.

[ALarson]

3 minutes ago, USU78 said:

Ah, well, that's the thing, isn't it?  If you can't come up with something more recent to be enraged about, and you're determined to be enraged, go find a relic of the XIXth Century "war of words" over religion and impute the words to your neighbors and family members.  Seems like too much effort to me.

I don't see anyone who is "enraged".  Exaggerate much?

But I see no reason to pretend it was never taught by some past leaders and that there are still members who have these lingering memories of the teachings.   Similar teachings were taught by leaders regarding Christians in general.  It's best to just own it and be glad this is no longer taught.

 

 

[sjdawg]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:23 AM, MiserereNobis said:

 

Way to go, Pope Francis.

They exchanged gifts, as usual. Pope Francis gave President Nelson his declarations on the family and the Islamic faith (interesting). President Nelson gave Pope Francis the proclamation on the family and a Christus figurine. I'm surprised they didn't give him his family history  

 

 

I think it is great that the leader of the largest Christian denomination in the world had time to greet the leader of a small, predominantly regional religion.

[the narrator]

I found it interesting, and somewhat funny, how differently Salt Lake and the Vatican viewed this meeting.

 

 

Edited March 11, 2019 by the narrator

[MiserereNobis]

It seems there is a character in the temple ceremony who is some sort of priest/preacher and is connected to the devil. Is it possible to tell me more about that or would that be going into too much detail? I'm just intrigued because it's been brought up a few times now and I am wondering what the character's purpose was -- what teaching was being made.

I'm not looking to be offended, just to be clear  I'm just curious.

 

[JulieM]

50 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Oh, there's still a lingering of those feelings (my experience has been it's almost all from the older generations ....the younger ones are not really even aware of it though, IMO).  But we cannot say that it was never taught by our leaders, it was.  Bruce R. McConkie was one of the First Council of Seventies (and later an Apostle) and Orson Pratt was an Apostle.  

We can't simply ignore that it was taught and believed by many at one time.  It's part of our history and the quotes explain why there are still even members today who remember those teachings.  

Oh for sure members believed this about the Catholic religion.

My parents still kind of jokingly say (when the Catholic Church is brought up) things like “Oh, you mean the Great and Abominable Church??”   It’s understanable because many believed Mormon Doctrine (book) was really Mormon doctrine.  Go figure!

[the narrator]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:33 AM, Jane_Doe said:

Great!

Hey @MiserereNobis, are you able to find anything for a Catholic-focused channel on this?  You know where to look better than I. 

Here is the Pope's itinerary for the day.

And here is what the Vatican found newsworthy from that day.

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, ALarson said:

I don't see anyone who is "enraged".  Exaggerate much?

But I see no reason to pretend it was never taught by some past leaders and that there are still members who have these lingering memories of the teachings.   Similar teachings were taught by leaders regarding Christians in general.  It's best to just own it and be glad this is no longer taught.

 

 

Saying that it needs to be placed in proper perspective is not the same thing as “pretending that it was never taught.”

And dredging it up every chance one gets as a means to stir the pot is not keeping it in perspective. 

[MiserereNobis]

9 minutes ago, the narrator said:

I found it interesting, and somewhat funny, how differently Salt Lake and the Vatican viewed this meeting.

 

 

Ha! Yeah, I checked here and there on Catholic news sites and no one really covered the meeting, though other news sources picked up the story from Deseret News. The meeting appeared on the Pope's daily schedule for that day but there is no reporting or commentary on it. I don't think anyone needs to read too much into the fact that Vatican News isn't covering it. The Pope did extend the invitation, after all, so he did want to meet President Nelson.

ETA: I like the white "pope-cycle" they gifted him in the background...

Edited March 11, 2019 by MiserereNobis

[Scott Lloyd]

6 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

It seems there is a character in the temple ceremony who is some sort of priest/preacher and is connected to the devil. Is it possible to tell me more about that or would that be going into too much detail? I'm just intrigued because it's been brought up a few times now and I am wondering what the character's purpose was -- what teaching was being made.

I'm not looking to be offended, just to be clear  I'm just curious.

 

Those who have made temple covenants ought not be speaking in detail about the proceedings therein. We are occasionally reminded not to do this. It is part of keeping them sacred. 

[CA Steve]

3 minutes ago, the narrator said:

Here is the Pope's itinerary for the day.

And here is what the Vatican found newsworthy from that day.

Lol at the Pope's  itinerary describing the 12 as President Nelson's "entourage".

[MiserereNobis]

Just now, CA Steve said:

Lol at the Pope's  itinerary describing the 12 as President Nelson's "entourage".

My understanding is that only President Ballard (I'm not exactly sure where he fits in the hierarchy) went with President Nelson. I'm sure entourage also included translators, cameras, etc.