Pope Francis and President Nelson (and Catholic/Mormon history)

[MiserereNobis]

This showed up on the Rome Temple thread but I think it deserved its own thread.

President Nelson and Pope Francis met at the Vatican. It's the first time that a pope and president have met. Pope Francis extended the invitation. There is an excellent article about it and about Catholic/Mormon history on Deseret News:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900059557/pope-francis-meets-with-president-nelson-in-the-vatican-catholic-mormon-rome.html

Some highlights:

Quote

"The differences in doctrine are real and they're important," President Nelson said afterward as he stood just outside St. Peter's Square, "but they're not nearly as important as the things we have in common — our concern for human suffering, the importance of religious liberty for all of society, and the importance of building bridges of friendship instead of building walls of segregation."

I always think it is important to recognize and not downplay differences in faiths when there are interfaith dialogues and meetings. And I find it fascinating that President Nelson referenced Pope Francis's quote about bridges vs. walls, since Pope Francis said that as a direct rebuke to President Trump and his desire for a border wall.

Quote

The pope extended the invitation for a private audience to the Latter-day Saint leader in conjunction with President Nelson's trip this weekend to Italy, where he will dedicate the history-making new Rome Italy Temple.

Way to go, Pope Francis.

They exchanged gifts, as usual. Pope Francis gave President Nelson his declarations on the family and the Islamic faith (interesting). President Nelson gave Pope Francis the proclamation on the family and a Christus figurine. I'm surprised they didn't give him his family history  

Quote

“He was very kind to us. We could not have asked for a more fulfilling experience,” said president Ballard of the meeting.

The pope and President Nelson embraced at the end of their time together.

"They gave each other a hug as we left that said everything," President Ballard said.

President Nelson invited Pope Francis to Salt Lake City and to the Rome Italy Temple.

"He's a dear, wonderful, humble, competent, gracious man," President Nelson said . "I respect him highly."

This made me smile. I would have loved to be in that room.

Quote

That appeared impossible in the 1950s when, fearing their own congregations would be scandalized if church members knew they were meeting, the leader of the Latter-day Saints came to Salt Lake City's Holy Cross Hospital for conversations with the head of the Salt Lake City Catholic diocese.

President David O. McKay would arrive under the guise of visiting a Latter-day Saint patient, then slip into the office of Bishop Duane G. Hunt. They used their private sessions to talk about community issues and the tensions between their members in Utah, said Monsignor J. Terrence Fitzgerald, who has had a front-row seat to the history of the two churches as a native Utahn ordained a Catholic priest in Salt Lake City in 1962.

"The Catholics were trying to get the Latter-day Saints not to bad-mouth the Catholics at every conference," he said, "and the Latter-day Saints were trying to get the Catholics to put in a good word for them on the national level."

This is very very interesting that President McKay had to secretly meet with the Bishop of SLC. Is it because of the McKonkie idea that the Catholic Church was the church of the devil? Any one from that time period remember LDS animosity towards Catholics (yes, I'm calling out you old geezers to respond  )

Quote

"Our No. 1 partner is Latter-day Saint Charities and the Bishop's Storehouse," Melville said. "For us, it's been a great partnership. I know a lot of churches don't get along great. The Latter-day Saints and Catholic Church cooperate really well on a broad range of services in Utah. I read comments online that complain (The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints) should be doing more for the homeless, but it does it quietly through established partners. No, their name isn't on a building down here, and they aren't talking about it, but they are a silent partner in every effort to help the homeless downtown."

Matthew Melville is the director of homeless services for Catholic charities in Utah. This is a great quote, especially since there are people on this board who complain that the LDS church doesn't do enough. I'm not weighing in on that specifically, but it's cool that this guy says more is being done than people might know about.

Quote

Twenty years ago, the Salt Lake Diocese asked President Monson, then in the First Presidency, for help when some Latter-day Saints in Draper, Utah, opposed Catholic efforts to build a 57-acre school and church center.

"President Monson called local Latter-day Saint stake presidents and bishops and told them he wanted the opposition to end. It ended," Monsignor Fitzgerald said.

I wonder what the opposition was about -- maybe left over ideas about the church of the devil?

Quote

Several years later, Latter-day Saint leaders asked the Salt Lake Diocese for help when some Catholics opposed plans for the Paris France Temple. The diocese wrote a letter, the opposition ended and the temple opened in 2017.

It's great that both churches are helping the other out when it comes to ending opposition to each other's buildings. The article also says that there was no opposition from the Vatican to the building of the temple in Rome and that officials met with each other 4 times during the process. I think it's great that the LDS church recognized that this could be a sensitive situation and meet with the Catholics about it and its equally great that the Catholics didn't oppose it at all.

Quote

Catholic Relief Services is vital to Latter-day Saint Charities, which doesn't want to duplicate its partner's infrastructure.

"We've helped Catholic Charities in many countries where they have been established," President Nelson said. "And we have the people and the resources from our people who want to help. Sometimes it's been most effective if we just help Catholic Charities, rather than trying to do it all on our own."

This makes perfect sense. Catholic Charities are everywhere (it's the size of our church) and we've got a pretty good track record of low overhead costs, etc, so it's sensible for the LDS church to give us money rather than create their own charity and duplicate things.

When President Trump separated immigrant families and then reversed and tried to put them back together, the LDS church gave $420,000 to Catholic Charities to help rather than create their own refugee resettlement agency since Catholic Charities was already up and running.

Quote

Latter-day Saint leadership has pledged to provide $450,000 in cash and $600,000 in 2019 for access to the storehouse for Catholic charities resettling refugees and working with asylum-seekers.

And the help continues, 4 years in a row now. Rather than calling asylum seekers "an invasion" and painting them as terrible people (as the Trump administration does), the LDS church works with us to help them. That makes me really happy.

The article is a great read and well worth the time.

 

[Jane_Doe]

Great!

Hey @MiserereNobis, are you able to find anything for a Catholic-focused channel on this?  You know where to look better than I. 

[MiserereNobis]

24 minutes ago, Jane_Doe said:

Great!

Hey @MiserereNobis, are you able to find anything for a Catholic-focused channel on this?  You know where to look better than I. 

There's the Vatican News service, but there's not an article there yet.

[blueglass]

They used the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (win for satan) gifted to the Vatican library by Gordon b Hinckley to officially invalidate our baptisms.

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni-ladaria_en.html

http://www.vatican.va/roman_curia/congregations/cfaith/documents/rc_con_cfaith_doc_20010605_battesimo_mormoni_en.html

https://www.archbalt.org/vatican-ruling-on-mormon-baptism-clarifies-catholic-practice/

 

Tremendous tension as well over aggressive proxy baptism efforts

"the Vatican has written to Catholic dioceses around the world telling them not to provide parish records to the Genealogical Society of Utah"

http://blogs.reuters.com/faithworld/2008/05/08/catholic-mormon-tension-over-lds-baptism-of-the-dead/

It's good to see we're meeting to discuss how to work together.

 

Edited March 9, 2019 by blueglass

[MiserereNobis]

23 minutes ago, blueglass said:

They used the Encyclopedia of Mormonism (win for satan) gifted to the Vatican library by Gordon b Hinckley to officially invalidate our baptisms.

Does that bother you? It seems odd that it would.

 

23 minutes ago, blueglass said:

It's good to see we're meeting to discuss how to work together.

Absolutely! I was happy to read the article.

[Jane_Doe]

2 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does that bother you? It seems odd that it would.

....hmm.. yes and no.  On one hand, 'no' because it's totally ok for a group to have requirements for what is considered to be a valid baptism.  On the other hand it is annoying to have the entire core of who you are (a disciple of Christ) systematically just denied, rather than just saying "you don't have a valid baptism".  Also, it does feel that the decision was... based upon a suddenly added extra requirement and sort of silly since a non-Christian who totally does't even believe in God can baptize.  It is annoying. 

All that being said, I don't loose one wink of sleep over this.

Edited March 9, 2019 by Jane_Doe

[ksfisher]

9 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I wonder what the opposition was about -- maybe left over ideas about the church of the devil?

If I remember right it was more concerns over what impact building a large high school would have on the area.  The usual concerns any resident would have when a school is being build neaby; trafic, noise, etc.

[USU78]

Misere, we in the USA have all inherited a lot of Protestant gunk. Part of that gunk is antipathy for conspicuous displays in churches. Silver candlesticks was a genuinely rage inducing issue during the English Civil War.

This gunk led to missing the point on the materialism and oppressiveness of the Great and Abominable Church Nephi wrote about. Our inherited protestantism blinded too many of us and prevented us seeing a potential friend and ally.

Thank heaven the friendship/alliance that always should have been is growing strong roots.

[Calm]

22 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

If I remember right it was more concerns over what impact building a large high school would have on the area.  The usual concerns any resident would have when a school is being build neaby; trafic, noise, etc.

That makes more sense to me.  My experience in Utah is the members here want to be very inviting to other faiths.  The fact that there is a Hindu temple in Spanish Fork, Muslims have praised Utah as a good place to raise a family, etc. generally leaves members I know expressing satisfaction (they think it is cool) even if they aren't particularly interested in learning details of faith.  That doesn't mean prejudice doesn't sometimes leak out in comments.

[blueglass]

8 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does that bother you? It seems odd that it would.

The vatican quotes from the EoM.

"God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. The Son and the Holy Spirit were procreated after the beginning of the creation of the world known to us (cf. EM, Vol. 2, p. 961). "

Christians have a real hard time with theogony, other planets, super evolution, and mother Goddesses.

[MiserereNobis]

41 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Christians have a real hard time with theogony, other planets, super evolution, and mother Goddesses.

Traditional Christianity has no problem with "mother Goddesses" -- in Catholicism, the veneration of the Blessed Virgin Mary fits the bill  (Theotokos in Eastern Orthodoxy).

It's those dang protestants who want to remove the feminine divine.

[mrmarklin]

It’s good to see the visit. 

Historically, the leadership of the LDS Church has been less than kind to Catholics. 

[The Nehor]

10 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Does that bother you? It seems odd that it would.

No. The feeling is mutual so it would seem odd for us to get huffy about it.

[The Nehor]

3 hours ago, USU78 said:

Misere, we in the USA have all inherited a lot of Protestant gunk. Part of that gunk is antipathy for conspicuous displays in churches. Silver candlesticks was a genuinely rage inducing issue during the English Civil War.

But without those how would Jean Valjean have been able to escape his life of paroled poverty?

[Calm]

27 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

No. The feeling is mutual so it would seem odd for us to get huffy about it.

Well, nowadays most Saints would say Catholics are Christian, I would hope, while if I understand the phrasing of the Catholic announcement and other teachings, we are not part of the body of Christ because we are not properly baptized and therefore technically not Christian in the official view.

That at least balances out some of our members, including prominent ones, in the past (hopefully very few are left) thinking the great and abominable church was the Catholic Church (never came close to fitting the description in the Book of Mormon in my view).

[Tacenda]

I have been on vacation for a week. I'm sure it's been nice to not hear negative comments from me for a time and I feel sort of bad for bringing this up. But I didn't much care for the statue of the Saviour that was given to the Pope. It reminded me of the Christus that Relief Society sisters bought at RS meetings in the 80's. But if I had seen the front of it, it was probably something different. It seemed a little too little of a gift. But it's not about the money I guess, but the thought behind it. ETA: We do have our past as well, but surely it doesn't coincide with how the early church leaders felt about the Catholics. Trying to keep on the topic. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider]

17 hours ago, blueglass said:

The vatican quotes from the EoM.

"God the Father has a wife, the Heavenly Mother, with whom he shares the responsibility of creation. They procreate sons in the spiritual world. Their firstborn is Jesus Christ, equal to all men, who has acquired his divinity in a pre-mortal existence. Even the Holy Spirit is the son of heavenly parents. The Son and the Holy Spirit were procreated after the beginning of the creation of the world known to us (cf. EM, Vol. 2, p. 961). "

Christians have a real hard time with theogony, other planets, super evolution, and mother Goddesses.

That is funny - I would call that false doctrine and a misunderstanding of LDS beliefs - I must be on a road to apostasy.

[Calm]

It really says just "sons" and "the Heavenly Mother", "equal to all men", and " created after the beginning of the world"?  I doubt that is an actual quote and instead is likely a paraphrase that misunderstands our doctrine.

Page 961 is the Mother in Heaven entry and that is obviously not a quote.  The "created after the beginning of the world" appears to be a misinterpreted paraphrase of "pre-mortal life".  There is nothing that says "equal to all men".

https://contentdm.lib.byu.edu/digital/collection/EoM/id/3962

Edited March 10, 2019 by Calm

[Scott Lloyd]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:23 AM, MiserereNobis said:

 

I wonder what the opposition was about -- maybe left over ideas about the church of the devil?

It's great that both churches are helping the other out when it comes to ending opposition to each other's buildings. 

 

Regarding the opposition to the Catholic school in Draper, I live just a few blocks from that school and have for many years. In fact it was built in the area where I grew up. 

I don’t recall such opposition and am chagrined to read of it now. I’m not saying it didn’t happen, only that it apparently was minor enough that it flew under my radar. In any event, I’m glad that President Monson put a stop to it. 

I can say that there has been no animosity or tension since the School was built. They are good neighbors to us, and I believe we have been to them. I have even visited a Christmas service at the church there and took my son to fulfill an assignment for his AP Human Geography class in ninth grade. 

Edited March 10, 2019 by Scott Lloyd

[MiserereNobis]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I have been on vacation for a week. I'm sure it's been nice to not hear negative comments from me for a time and I feel sort of bad for bringing this up. But I didn't much care for the statue of the Saviour that was given to the Pope. It reminded me of the Christus that Relief Society sisters bought at RS meetings in the 80's. But if I had seen the front of it, it was probably something different. It seemed a little too little of a gift. But it's not about the money I guess, but the thought behind it. ETA: We do have our past as well, but surely it doesn't coincide with how the early church leaders felt about the Catholics. Trying to keep on the topic. 

I liked that it was small. I mean, it is the Vatican -- they have more than enough large statues. And what kind of statue can you give the guy who has Michelangelo's Pieta?  

[Calm]

19 hours ago, mrmarklin said:

Historically, the leadership of the LDS Church has been less than kind to Catholics. 

It has varied over the years.  Given most early leaders came from the Protestant tradition and antiCatolicism was rampant in the 1800's, that being present at times is not surprising to me.

More troubling to me was the specific identification of the RCC as the great and abominable by Elder McConkie in his first edition of MD, similar to other identifications of the Church of the devil by some nonCatholics.  Leadership correcting him is gratifying to me as are the Ensign articles rejecting that claim.  Not sure how that identification impacted actual interaction with leadership though even if it likely increased negativity towards the Catholic Church among membership (would be interested to know if research had been done to see if there was an impact).

A quick skim of a 1971 article yields one obvious negative criticism to me ("periods of infamy" section) and oddly does not draw comparison with our own doctrine and practices where it could, using language not usually used by ourselves (such as sacramentalism), so it feels distancing to me rather than demonstrating shared ideas (central hierarchy, Priesthood, ordinances necessary part of accessing the Atonement, etc), but still avoids the exteme condemnation of the label "great and abominable" or "Church of the devil".  So there is a sense of awkwardness still when I read it which feels consistent with my memory of that time.

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1971/04/roman-catholicism?lang=eng

Edited March 11, 2019 by Calm

[Tacenda]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

It has varied over the years.  Given most early leaders came from the Protestant tradition and antiCatolicism was rampant in the 1800's, that being present at times is not surprising to me.

More troubling to me was the specific identification of the RCC as the great and abominable by Elder McConkie in his first edition of MD, similar to other identifications of the Church of the devil by some nonCatholics.  Leadership correcting him is gratifying to me as are the Ensign articles rejecting that claim.  Not sure how that identification impacted actual interaction with leadership though even if it likely increased negativity towards the Catholic Church among membership (would be interested to know if research had been done to see if there was an impact).

A quick skim of a 1971 article yields one obvious negative criticism to me ("periods of infamy" section) and oddly does not draw comparison with our own doctrine and practices where it could, using language not usually used by ourselves (such as sacramentalism), so it feels distancing to me rather than demonstrating shared ideas (central hierarchy, Priesthood, ordinances necessary part of accessing the Atonement, etc), but still avoids the exteme condemnation of the label "great and abominable" or "Church of the devil".  So there is a sense of awkwardness still when I read it which feels consistent with my memory of that time.

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1971/04/roman-catholicism?lang=eng

The church surely felt differently as early as 1984 when I went to the temple for the first time and it was a Catholic Priest being portrayed as Satan. All the way up to the 1990's, I'm thinking. But very glad the church saw the error in putting that in the movie at the temple and it's no longer there. 

[Storm Rider]

55 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

The church surely felt differently as early as 1984 when I went to the temple for the first time and it was a Catholic Priest being portrayed as Satan. All the way up to the 1990's, I'm thinking. But very glad the church saw the error in putting that in the movie at the temple and it's no longer there. 

I think you mean to say that the preacher that represented the churches of the world wore a collar - at no time was the "preacher" identified as a Catholic priest.

[Kenngo1969]

On 3/9/2019 at 9:23 AM, MiserereNobis said:

...When President Trump separated immigrant families and then reversed and tried to put them back together, the LDS church gave $420,000 to Catholic Charities to help rather than create their own refugee resettlement agency since Catholic Charities was already up and running.

To be fair, if I recall correctly, the policy of separating families (if, indeed, it is families that are being separated) did not begin with President Trump.  Part of the problem (though I'm unsure how widespread it is) is that adults claiming to be relatives of children when these groups cross the border may or may not be related to them: The adults could simply be non-relatives who have been recruited by coyotes to take the children across the border, which is at least part of the reason why the separations occurred in the first place.

Quote

And the help continues, 4 years in a row now. Rather than calling asylum seekers "an invasion" and painting them as terrible people (as the Trump administration does), the LDS church works with us to help them. That makes me really happy.

The article is a great read and well worth the time.

 

Again, to be fair, there is a process in place for people seeking asylum.  The usual process for anyone desiring to seek asylum is to go to the embassy of the country from which one wishes to seek asylum that is located in one's own country (the US Embassy, in this case) and to request it.  It's not necessary to brave the hazards inherent to making a journey of hundreds, if not thousands, of miles, and crossing more than one border if Mexico is not one's country of origin.

I don't have hard numbers, but I would guess that the process of seeking asylum takes place dozens of times a week, perhaps hundreds of times a month, and perhaps thousands of times a year, and it never makes news unless an asylum seeker has some sort of a high profile in his country of origin.  One asylum seeker is a statistic: Hundreds or thousands at once is news.  I hold no brief for President Trump.  I did not vote for him the first time he ran for president, and I'm not sure for whom I will vote in 2020.  Yes, often, he is imprecise (and impolitic, and worse) in his use of language.  But if you want to get upset at someone, get upset at the people who are responsible for and who are encouraging the caravans, many of whom are using their members as political pawns.

Edited March 11, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Scott Lloyd]

I

On 3/9/2019 at 7:14 PM, ksfisher said:

If I remember right it was more concerns over what impact building a large high school would have on the area.  The usual concerns any resident would have when a school is being build neaby; trafic, noise, etc.

That sounds about right. 

The last few decades have seen an immense inflow of residents and businesses to Draper, a once highly agricultural and rural community. Sad to say, some of these new move-ins have been the sort who, once they get their palatial country homes built, want to shut the door behind them and not allow any other newcomers or additional development. I saw this a decade or so ago with the bitter opposition in Draper to the extension by Utah Transit Authority of its light-rail line into Draper. I was very much annoyed with some of my neighbors to the south for their NIMBY attitude. 

We Latter-day Saints get perturbed by the frequent opposition by local residents to the construction of our temples, but it must be acknowledged that the reason almost always given is not religious hatred but rather, the perception that the new construction will cause traffic congestion or other unwanted impacts on the area.