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On 3/9/2019 at 8:57 AM, Duncan said:

hahahahhahahaha! i'd love to go and check it out, until then Penelope's Pizza 2 for a dollar deal it is 😕

You should try and go to Rome, I hear there are affordable ways to go, really thinking of my budget, not yours. Oh, and BTW recently met a great couple from Alberta, Canada on a cruise. Kept wondering if that is where you're from, forgot! 

And there was an Italian family on board as well, who sat at dinner every night right by our table. I fell in love with their family, especially their elderly mother that the waiter would dance with nightly, right by her chair. She seemed to come alive every time. I think the Italians have such close families!

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On 3/9/2019 at 11:43 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

I'd leave at least one guy back in SLC, just in case a terrorist decides to attack.  What are the rules for succession in that case?

I'm a little surprised they are all together as well.  I wonder if they are all flying together?

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9 hours ago, Tacenda said:

You should try and go to Rome, I hear there are affordable ways to go, really thinking of my budget, not yours. Oh, and BTW recently met a great couple from Alberta, Canada on a cruise. Kept wondering if that is where you're from, forgot! 

And there was an Italian family on board as well, who sat at dinner every night right by our table. I fell in love with their family, especially their elderly mother that the waiter would dance with nightly, right by her chair. She seemed to come alive every time. I think the Italians have such close families!

oh that's great! alas, I am not from Alberta! hahahahhaha! it's like Utah of Canada in terms of membership numbers- I am from East of Alberta!

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3 hours ago, Duncan said:

oh that's great! alas, I am not from Alberta! hahahahhaha! it's like Utah of Canada in terms of membership numbers- I am from East of Alberta!

Wasn't that province named for the late Pres George Albert Smith?  8)

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9 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Wasn't that province named for the late Pres George Albert Smith?  8)

to quote Ralph Kramden, minus the Alice bit

 

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On 3/10/2019 at 11:06 PM, cinepro said:

Are you saying the Church isn't sure if D&C 107 is correct, and that it isn't official that Biblical Adam lived in the area now known as "Missouri"?

 

Honestly, that doesn't sound very "neutral" to me as to whether or not biblical events were taking place in the area now known as Missouri.

It was my perception that this kind of certainty/historicity was walked back by church PR during the Romney campaign ver 1.0.  He interviewed on Face the Nation in 2007, and he was asked about the garden of Eden.  The former bishop and stake president could not confidently respond and deferred to SLC.  Then the church PR dept created an FAQ which added incredulity to whether we believe D&C107:53 geography on the garden of eden or not.  Getting celestial planets, becoming gods, etc were also walked back.   It could be that by saying "We do not know exactly" means within +/- 100ft, or we're not confident on the precise GPS coordinates of the boundaries which surround the areal centroid of the geography of the garden.  A number of ways to interweave "we do not know", but Joseph thought he did on the back end of the entry.  

16. Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?

We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

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It's too bad the cross on the entrance doors from the original fly-by rendering didn't make it through final design.  Perhaps it was used originally to get buy in from local government officials?  

https://ibb.co/vhqFLX5

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14 hours ago, Duncan said:

oh that's great! alas, I am not from Alberta! hahahahhaha! it's like Utah of Canada in terms of membership numbers- I am from East of Alberta!

There's nothing East of Alberta. Nothing.

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Posted (edited)
3 hours ago, blueglass said:

It was my perception that this kind of certainty/historicity was walked back by church PR during the Romney campaign ver 1.0.  He interviewed on Face the Nation in 2007, and he was asked about the garden of Eden.  The former bishop and stake president could not confidently respond and deferred to SLC.  Then the church PR dept created an FAQ which added incredulity to whether we believe D&C107:53 geography on the garden of eden or not.  Getting celestial planets, becoming gods, etc were also walked back.   It could be that by saying "We do not know exactly" means within +/- 100ft, or we're not confident on the precise GPS coordinates of the boundaries which surround the areal centroid of the geography of the garden.  A number of ways to interweave "we do not know", but Joseph thought he did on the back end of the entry.  

16. Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?

We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is.

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

You left some important context out of this quote. Here’s the entire thing: 

16. Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?

“We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area. Like knowing the precise number of animals on Noah’s ark, knowing the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important to one’s salvation than believing in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”

Furthermore, while we do not know the precise location of the Garden of Eden, we do know by revelation the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman, which is the place in present-day Missouri where Adam and Eve dwelt after they left the Garden of Eden. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Posted (edited)
21 minutes ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You left some important context out of this quote. Here’s the entire thing: 

16. Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?

“We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area. Like knowing the precise number of animals on Noah’s ark, knowing the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important to one’s salvation than believing in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”

Futthermore, while we do not know the precise location of the Garden of Eden, we do know by revelation the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman, which is the place in present-day Missouri where Adam and Eve dwelt after they left the Garden of Eden. 

So do you believe Brigham Young was wrong?  He made specific statements telling members where the garden was.

A couple:


“In the beginning, after this earth was prepared for man, the Lord commenced his work upon what is now called the American continent, where the Garden of Eden was made. In the days of Noah, in the days of the Boating of the ark, he took the people to another part of the earth. 

- Prophet Brigham Young, The Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 102

And:

“You have been both to Jerusalem and Zion, and seen both. I have not seen either, for I have never been in Jackson County. Now it is a pleasant thing to think of and to know where the Garden of Eden was. Did you ever think of it? I do not think many do, for in Jackson County was the Garden of Eden. Joseph has declared this, and I am as much bound to believe that as to believe that Joseph was a prophet of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, March 15, 1857

 

There  were other Prophets who taught this too.   Do you believe they were all wrong?

 

Edited by JulieM
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Posted (edited)
12 minutes ago, JulieM said:

So do you believe Brigham Young was wrong?  He made specific statements telling members where the garden was.

A couple:


“In the beginning, after this earth was prepared for man, the Lord commenced his work upon what is now called the American continent, where the Garden of Eden was made. In the days of Noah, in the days of the Boating of the ark, he took the people to another part of the earth. 

- Prophet Brigham Young, The Discourses of Brigham Young, p. 102

And:

“You have been both to Jerusalem and Zion, and seen both. I have not seen either, for I have never been in Jackson County. Now it is a pleasant thing to think of and to know where the Garden of Eden was. Did you ever think of it? I do not think many do, for in Jackson County was the Garden of Eden. Joseph has declared this, and I am as much bound to believe that as to believe that Joseph was a prophet of God.”

- Prophet Brigham Young, Journal History of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, March 15, 1857

 

There  were other Prophets who taught this too.   Do you believe they were all wrong?

 

I stand by what I said in my post. Personally, I surmise that the garden was somewhere near Adam-ondi-Ahman. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd
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Quote from Pres Nelson upon his departure:

Quote

This is a hinge point in the history of the church. Things are going to move forward at an accelerated pace, of which this is a part ... The church is going to have an unprecedented future, unparalleled; we're just building up to what's ahead now.

 

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8 hours ago, USU78 said:

There's nothing East of Alberta. Nothing.

ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh! shots fired! 

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On 3/8/2019 at 6:35 PM, Duncan said:

I can't imagine having real Italian Pizza, I mean Dominoes is great BUT legit Italian Pizza would be worth travelling for, i'd imagine-Although having pizza is probably not high on the Brethren's list of priorities

When my wife visited Italy she was looking forward to "real" Italian food. She was not impressed with it, though.  Later, upon visiting the USA for the first time (when we got married), I took her to Olive Garden (Italian food, American style I guess) and it is now her favorite restaurant.  So I don't know if "legit" Italian pizza would live up to expectations.

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10 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

You left some important context out of this quote. Here’s the entire thing: 

16. Do Latter-day Saints believe that the Garden of Eden is in Missouri?

We do not know exactly where the original site of the Garden of Eden is. While not an important or foundational doctrine, Joseph Smith established a settlement in Daviess County, Missouri, and taught that the Garden of Eden was somewhere in that area. Like knowing the precise number of animals on Noah’s ark, knowing the precise location of the Garden of Eden is far less important to one’s salvation than believing in the Atonement of Jesus Christ.”

Furthermore, while we do not know the precise location of the Garden of Eden, we do know by revelation the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman, which is the place in present-day Missouri where Adam and Eve dwelt after they left the Garden of Eden. 

Highlighting the important context here in bold, and reducing the "We do not know exactly where" in fine print font.  

Here's a BYU scholar to help us sort this out.

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1994/01/i-have-a-question/what-do-we-know-about-the-location-of-the-garden-of-eden?lang=eng

“Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson [County] Missouri.” (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, vol. 5, 15 Mar. 1857, Archives Division, Church Historical Dept., Salt Lake City.) Heber C. Kimball said: “From the Lord, Joseph learned that Adam had dwelt on the land of America, and that the Garden of Eden was located where Jackson County now is.” (Andrew Jenson, Historical Record, 9 vols., Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson, 1888, 7:439)

So it was a pretty short trip north from Jackson county to Daviess county after expulsion.  

For some reason it was missing from Google maps, so I submitted a request to add it under the category of grocery store (fruits and vegetables).  The location is competing with a garden of eden lawn care service, a floral shop, and a few lingerie stores.

https://ibb.co/82zD6HT

 

 

 

 

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29 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Highlighting the important context here in bold, and reducing the "We do not know exactly where" in fine print font.  

Here's a BYU scholar to help us sort this out.

https://www.lds.org/study/ensign/1994/01/i-have-a-question/what-do-we-know-about-the-location-of-the-garden-of-eden?lang=eng

“Joseph the Prophet told me that the garden of Eden was in Jackson [County] Missouri.” (Journal of Wilford Woodruff, vol. 5, 15 Mar. 1857, Archives Division, Church Historical Dept., Salt Lake City.) Heber C. Kimball said: “From the Lord, Joseph learned that Adam had dwelt on the land of America, and that the Garden of Eden was located where Jackson County now is.” (Andrew Jenson, Historical Record, 9 vols., Salt Lake City: Andrew Jenson, 1888, 7:439)

So it was a pretty short trip north from Jackson county to Daviess county after expulsion.  

For some reason it was missing from Google maps, so I submitted a request to add it under the category of grocery store (fruits and vegetables).  The location is competing with a garden of eden lawn care service, a floral shop, and a few lingerie stores.

https://ibb.co/82zD6HT

 

 

 

 

You seem to have a short and selective memory, so allow me to recap.

A news article said the Rome Temple was the first Temple in "the land of the Bible."  I pointed out that LDS scriptures teach that Adam-ondi-Ahman is in Missouri, not too far from the Kansas City Temple (about 70 miles), so that Temple might be considered to be in "the land of the Bible."

You'll notice at no point did I mention the Garden of Eden. Remember that.  It's important.

You responded by insisting the Church " subscribes to no official geographical model" on the geography of the Bible, and then you invoked the Garden of Eden as part of the discussion.  Assuming Adam-ondi-Ahman is part of biblical geography (and since its location is in reference solely to the Adam of the Bible and his family, that would seem to qualify it as a biblical location), I pointed out that no less than the Doctrine and Covenants identifies the specific location of that place.  Again, I never mentioned the Garden of Eden.

You then followed up by further invoking The Garden of Eden and the Church's attempts to distance itself from any specific claims regarding its location.  That's fine, since I never brought it up in the first place.  My statement was based entirely on the claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman.  You attempted to support your claims with an edited quote from the Church, but as Scott Lloyd pointed out, you could only do so by editing out the part that clearly supports my claim and totally discredits yours:

Quote

Furthermore, while we do not know the precise location of the Garden of Eden, we do know by revelation the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman, which is the place in present-day Missouri where Adam and Eve dwelt after they left the Garden of Eden. 

https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/frequently-asked-questions

  So at this point, let's agree that the invocation of The Garden of Eden was a canard and misdirection on your part.  If you want to continue to argue that the Kansas City Temple isn't in the "land of the Bible" according to LDS doctrines, you have these options to choose from:

1. 70 miles is far enough to place the Kansas City Temple out of what could reasonably be considered "the land of the Bible" (limited geography arguments are always a good go-to in these situations).

2. The claim of Joseph Smith regarding Spring Hill being Adam-ondi-Ahman is incorrect (or his claim about what Adam did there is incorrect), and the newsroom is wrong about us knowing it "by revelation".

3. A two Adam-ondi-Ahman theory, where the original AOA was in the middle east, and the identification of Spring Hill is more of a symbolic teaching than an actual statement of geography.

Or the Church Newsroom misspoke, and whoever made the claim forgot that Biblical lands include, at the very least, parts of Missouri in LDS Scriptures.

 

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13 minutes ago, cinepro said:

You seem to have a short and selective memory, so allow me to recap.

A news article said the Rome Temple was the first Temple in "the land of the Bible."  I pointed out that LDS scriptures teach that Adam-ondi-Ahman is in Missouri, not too far from the Kansas City Temple (about 70 miles), so that Temple might be considered to be in "the land of the Bible."

You'll notice at no point did I mention the Garden of Eden. Remember that.  It's important.

You responded by insisting the Church " subscribes to no official geographical model" on the geography of the Bible, and then you invoked the Garden of Eden as part of the discussion.  Assuming Adam-ondi-Ahman is part of biblical geography (and since its location is in reference solely to the Adam of the Bible and his family, that would seem to qualify it as a biblical location), I pointed out that no less than the Doctrine and Covenants identifies the specific location of that place.  Again, I never mentioned the Garden of Eden.

You then followed up by further invoking The Garden of Eden and the Church's attempts to distance itself from any specific claims regarding its location.  That's fine, since I never brought it up in the first place.  My statement was based entirely on the claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman.  You attempted to support your claims with an edited quote from the Church, but as Scott Lloyd pointed out, you could only do so by editing out the part that clearly supports my claim and totally discredits yours:

  So at this point, let's agree that the invocation of The Garden of Eden was a canard and misdirection on your part.  If you want to continue to argue that the Kansas City Temple isn't in the "land of the Bible" according to LDS doctrines, you have these options to choose from:

1. 70 miles is far enough to place the Kansas City Temple out of what could reasonably be considered "the land of the Bible" (limited geography arguments are always a good go-to in these situations).

2. The claim of Joseph Smith regarding Spring Hill being Adam-ondi-Ahman is incorrect (or his claim about what Adam did there is incorrect), and the newsroom is wrong about us knowing it "by revelation".

3. A two Adam-ondi-Ahman theory, where the original AOA was in the middle east, and the identification of Spring Hill is more of a symbolic teaching than an actual statement of geography.

Or the Church Newsroom misspoke, and whoever made the claim forgot that Biblical lands include, at the very least, parts of Missouri in LDS Scriptures.

 

I think the Church originally misspsoke but corrected it with this "New Testament Lands"

http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Nelson-Dedicates-Rome-Italy-Temple-the-First-Temple-in-a-New-Testament-Land-Cornerstone-Video/s/90429

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2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When my wife visited Italy she was looking forward to "real" Italian food. She was not impressed with it, though.  Later, upon visiting the USA for the first time (when we got married), I took her to Olive Garden (Italian food, American style I guess) and it is now her favorite restaurant.  So I don't know if "legit" Italian pizza would live up to expectations.

This. While I did have one fantastic pizza in Italy near Naples, I was not impressed by the rest of the pizza I had there.

Unfortunately, there are plenty of bad cooks in Italy, too, and it seems like they tend to be drawn to the tourist areas. We ate at several restaurants in several different cities there and had some pretty good food and some mediocre food. None of it was mind-blowing. Some of the Italian food I've had in the US and in Argentina was better than what we had in Italy.

That said, I hope to never darken the door of another Olive Garden in my life.

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4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

When my wife visited Italy she was looking forward to "real" Italian food. She was not impressed with it, though.  Later, upon visiting the USA for the first time (when we got married), I took her to Olive Garden (Italian food, American style I guess) and it is now her favorite restaurant.  So I don't know if "legit" Italian pizza would live up to expectations.

I love me some olive garden but it doesn't compare to the real stuff.

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3 hours ago, cinepro said:

You seem to have a short and selective memory, so allow me to recap.

A news article said the Rome Temple was the first Temple in "the land of the Bible."  I pointed out that LDS scriptures teach that Adam-ondi-Ahman is in Missouri, not too far from the Kansas City Temple (about 70 miles), so that Temple might be considered to be in "the land of the Bible."

You'll notice at no point did I mention the Garden of Eden. Remember that.  It's important.

You responded by insisting the Church " subscribes to no official geographical model" on the geography of the Bible, and then you invoked the Garden of Eden as part of the discussion.  Assuming Adam-ondi-Ahman is part of biblical geography (and since its location is in reference solely to the Adam of the Bible and his family, that would seem to qualify it as a biblical location), I pointed out that no less than the Doctrine and Covenants identifies the specific location of that place.  Again, I never mentioned the Garden of Eden.

You then followed up by further invoking The Garden of Eden and the Church's attempts to distance itself from any specific claims regarding its location.  That's fine, since I never brought it up in the first place.  My statement was based entirely on the claims regarding Adam-ondi-Ahman.  You attempted to support your claims with an edited quote from the Church, but as Scott Lloyd pointed out, you could only do so by editing out the part that clearly supports my claim and totally discredits yours:

  So at this point, let's agree that the invocation of The Garden of Eden was a canard and misdirection on your part.  If you want to continue to argue that the Kansas City Temple isn't in the "land of the Bible" according to LDS doctrines, you have these options to choose from:

1. 70 miles is far enough to place the Kansas City Temple out of what could reasonably be considered "the land of the Bible" (limited geography arguments are always a good go-to in these situations).

2. The claim of Joseph Smith regarding Spring Hill being Adam-ondi-Ahman is incorrect (or his claim about what Adam did there is incorrect), and the newsroom is wrong about us knowing it "by revelation".

3. A two Adam-ondi-Ahman theory, where the original AOA was in the middle east, and the identification of Spring Hill is more of a symbolic teaching than an actual statement of geography.

Or the Church Newsroom misspoke, and whoever made the claim forgot that Biblical lands include, at the very least, parts of Missouri in LDS Scriptures.

 

This quote allegedly from president newsroom, "we do know by revelation the location of Adam-ondi-Ahman . . . " can't be found at entry 16 from the newsroom link provided by Scott.  This is from Scott quoting himself in the same font type and size as newsroom.  The location of the quotes was a bit subtle.  My point in my response is that we used to know by revelation both the location of the garden of eden and the location of adam ondi-ahman.  I don't believe the J writer of Genesis 2 was aware of Adam ondi-ahman in Missouri, or of the pure language.  https://www.josephsmithpapers.org/paper-summary/sample-of-pure-language-between-circa-4-and-circa-20-march-1832/1#full-transcript:

I think for something to be considered in the land of the bible it has to be mentioned in the extant manuscripts of the bible we have.  What's the best way to resolve the conflicts which arise when trying to reconcile Genesis old world geography lands/rivers with North America?  Looking at the options when we pull everything into the geography of north america: The garden, the fall, the building of the tower of babel, we have to send the brother of Jared and friends to travel down the Mississippi in barges to the gulf of mexico to start the olmec civilazation seems difficult.  Ultimately, we have to get Lehi's ancestors back across the ocean to Egypt to learn egyptian so they can teach demotic to his father, so he could learn his genealogy, protest with Jeremiah and his friends, kill Laban and steal the plain and precious brass scriptures so that he can escape Jerusalem, and then travel back to the americas.  

Edited by blueglass

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40 minutes ago, sjdawg said:

I love me some olive garden but it doesn't compare to the real stuff.

 

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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

I think the Church originally misspsoke but corrected it with this "New Testament Lands"

http://www.ldsliving.com/President-Nelson-Dedicates-Rome-Italy-Temple-the-First-Temple-in-a-New-Testament-Land-Cornerstone-Video/s/90429

There's lots of new testament in the book of mormon too.  Jesus appeared to the temple of bountiful in Mexico.  It's clearly shown in the painting of goldilocks irish Jesus with the pyramid of kukulcan at chichen Itza in the back ground. 

https://ibb.co/4Y28HfV
https://ibb.co/1R2MnBf
https://ibb.co/kKrFZ1q

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48 minutes ago, blueglass said:

There's lots of new testament in the book of mormon too.  Jesus appeared to the temple of bountiful in Mexico.  It's clearly shown in the painting of goldilocks irish Jesus with the pyramid of kukulcan at chichen Itza in the back ground. 

https://ibb.co/4Y28HfV
https://ibb.co/1R2MnBf
https://ibb.co/kKrFZ1q

Jesus has never struck me as looking like Goldilocks!hahahhahahahhahahahhahaha! 

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6 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Well that’s prophetic...

I’m still awaiting the braying by the naysayers. They’ve been oddly silent so far.

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