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New Game in Town with the Antis

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29 minutes ago, Calm said:

If they are isolated, there is a good chance they have developed new behaviours or perhaps held on to older ones such that their behaviour isn't typical of a ward...though ward differences can vary greatly even when sharing the same building.  

Please, my characterization of our area as isolated is not meant as a criticism. It really, no kidding is isolated down here. I have partially titled my talk on apostles in the colonies as "Integration and Isolation." That has historically been true of the Saints in this area since their arrival in 1885, even in relation to their own Church. The isolation as portrayed by the local leaders here during the revolution will break your heart. The accounts and stories are so very poignant. It is a wonderful place with wonderful people. I am not talking out of both sides of my mouth (at least not consciously) when I say we love them, experience their love, and are hurt by them and probably have hurt them as well. Of such is a complex and growing relationship. 

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6 minutes ago, Navidad said:

I appreciate that. For me it was Sunday a week ago. Or come to think of it, I think it was about an hour ago. 

You may have had unfortunate experiences in the ward you attend, but it is unfair to project that on the Church as a whole, which is what you appear to be doing. From my vantage point, that is what Robert F. Smith is objecting to.  

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can’t remember the last time a LDS friend mocked or ridiculed non-members. 

I have seen a lot of ignorance of others' faiths, but that is different than mocking.  It is rare, for example, that I meet a Saint offline who knows what the Immaculate Conception actually is (at least before I inform them ;) ).  Over the years, I would say the only consistent mocking of a faith I have run into is from former missionaries who had problems in the community on their mission outside of the US because of confusion or overlap with Jehovah Witnesses and that mocking was on rare occasions.  It wasn't belief that was mocked either.  

When the topic of the Cross as a object of veneration comes up, there can be disrespect, but this seems much less in the last 20 years than before imo, though there is still expressed distaste for the crucifix because of its appearance.  "Sprinkling" baptism I have heard mocked, but that was quite some time ago.

I do not automatically discount others who report more persistent prejudice surfacing in classes and such, I suspect there is much variation.

The only major criticism of other faiths' beliefs I consistently see online (and it does stray at times into mocking, imo) is Easy Grace and I have seen this done much more by converts who say they came from a family or community who were taught that rather than BIC members.  The only other targeted belief I have seen is how God is defined by strict Calvinists, where they are seen as believing in a God who creates creatures for the purpose of damning them to eternal torture to show his power and dominion.  That particular belief is seen as monstrous by some.  It is, in my experience, the only belief that draws deep revulsion from Saints, though it is a rare topic.  I would not be surprised if many Saints think both Easy Grace and the more exteme Calvinist definition of God were caricatures rather than actual beliefs.  The Trinity...most of the time where I see some reacting as if it is being mocked, it comes across more as mystified frustration to me, but that would be the only other actual belief that gets targeted at times, imo.  There may be others that just haven't impressed themselves on my awareness.

Other than that, I think the biggest issue for mocking in general is when youth encounters new culture and use that experience as entertainment rather than learning of others (missionaries destroying church property was huge, iirc they got sent home from the mission; I heard two former missionaries laughing about a song made up about shrines where they were obviously unaware of the significance and viewed them as the equivalent of lawn gnomes...in both cases, if someone informed had sat down and taught them more of what it meant to others and relate it to their own religious experiences, I think that would have prevented such disrespect) and then the attitude might end up being carried on because of the fondness for the sense of camaraderie and nostalgia that gets associated with it...or it just might appeared to be persistence of youthful prejudices when they are just laughing about what idiots they were.

Edited by Calm
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50 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

You may have had unfortunate experiences in the ward you attend, but it is unfair to project that on the Church as a whole, which is what you appear to be doing. From my vantage point, that is what Robert F. Smith is objecting to.  

You make a good point, but not exactly in the way you are suggesting. Most of my projecting comes from what I read; not my experience in the ward. I project more onto the Church as a whole from what I read and experience on this forum than from the ward. I don't think you or others, as leaders on this forum understand its influence on someone like me. I assume it is more representative of the Church since you all come from varied places and experiences. The last 12 hours on this forum, more specifically on this thread has not been normative, but it has greatly impacted my view of Mormonism. I am struggling to not normalize what I have read the past few hours. It has left me shaking. And yes, you are now explaining him and offering counsel to me. He is the insider; I am the "other." Let me repeat, I am the "other." I feel that more tonight than ever. Your "vantage point" is obviously very different from mine. You will go on your way tomorrow none the worse for wear. It is 2:32 in the morning here and I am still on this forum/ward/model of the Church trying to make sense of it all.  

My projection also comes from the hundreds of books I have bought and read by faithful Mormons of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Generally speaking the tone about non-member Christians is not very positive in the writings of many of them. I form my perspectives from them. Nibley, Talmage, Roberts, the Pratts, and many others are giants in the Mormon church. They have had an extensive influence on what the Church is today, especially in the dual sense of culture and doctrine. Yes, their broad brush generalities and often negative conclusions have influenced me.  This forum and the writings I have read of the great Mormons of the past  have made me project certain attributes onto the Church as a whole. You are right. Then someone will say, "Don't let those old guys influence you!" Well, yes they do. They are the ones who have made the Church what it is today, are they not? Every one I mentioned are listed on the list of great intellects of the Mormon faith. So yes, I go out and buy and read their books and writings. And yes, I generalize onto the Church. I would suggest that of the three influences I have mentioned (ward, this forum, and the writings of the Church fathers) this forum has had the greatest impact on me. To be fair, the Church History department has been a beacon of kindness, encouragement, and support to me. Reid Neilson is a model of Christ-likeness in my mind. In short encounters I always learn much from him. I could and will say the same about many of his subordinates in the department. I have had wonderful and affirming dialogue with them. I struggle to normalize that with my other experiences. That is as honest and transparent as I can be, especially at 2:56 in the morning. 

Edited by Navidad

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

................... I thank our Heavenly Father for the ups and take responsibility for my part in the downs. 

Talk is cheap, Navidad.  True repentance requires self-reflection, something Walter Martin (for example) could never do.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

I have seen a lot of ignorance of others' faiths, but that is different than mocking.  It is rare, for example, that I meet a Saint offline who knows what the Immaculate Conception actually is (at least before I inform them ;) ).  Over the years, I would say the only consistent mocking of a faith I have run into is from former missionaries who had problems in the community on their mission outside of the US because of confusion or overlap with Jehovah Witnesses and that mocking was on rare occasions.  It wasn't belief that was mocked either.  

When the topic of the Cross as a object of veneration comes up, there can be disrespect, but this seems much less in the last 20 years than before imo, though there is still expressed distaste for the crucifix because of its appearance.  "Sprinkling" baptism I have heard mocked, but that was quite some time ago.

I do not automatically discount others who report more persistent prejudice surfacing in classes and such, I suspect there is much variation.

The only major criticism of other faiths' beliefs I consistently see online (and it does stray at times into mocking, imo) is Easy Grace and I have seen this done much more by converts who say they came from a family or community who were taught that rather than BIC members.  The only other targeted belief I have seen is how God is defined by strict Calvinists, where they are seen as believing in a God who creates creatures for the purpose of damning them to eternal torture to show his power and dominion.  That particular belief is seen as monstrous by some.  It is, in my experience, the only belief that draws deep revulsion from Saints, though it is a rare topic.  I would not be surprised if many Saints think both Easy Grace and the more exteme Calvinist definition of God were caricatures rather than actual beliefs.  The Trinity...most of the time where I see some reacting as if it is being mocked, it comes across more as mystified frustration to me, but that would be the only other actual belief that gets targeted at times, imo.  There may be others that just haven't impressed themselves on my awareness.

Other than that, I think the biggest issue for mocking in general is when youth encounters new culture and use that experience as entertainment rather than learning of others (missionaries destroying church property was huge, iirc they got sent home from the mission; I heard two former missionaries laughing about a song made up about shrines where they were obviously unaware of the significance and viewed them as the equivalent of lawn gnomes...in both cases, if someone informed had sat down and taught them more of what it meant to others and relate it to their own religious experiences, I think that would have prevented such disrespect) and then the attitude might end up being carried on because of the fondness for the sense of camaraderie and nostalgia that gets associated with it...or it just might appeared to be persistence of youthful prejudices when they are just laughing about what idiots they were.

I can thing of a whole lot of other things Church members mock that others think of as being quite sacred and importnat in their lives.  I don't think you have really thought about this issue in very broad terms.  Religions that hold the cow as sacred or religions that are unwilling to swat a mosqueto because they don't believe in killing anything, anything new age, certainly gay marriage is not really a marriage.  Statues of Buddah.  Jehovah Witnesses and their 144,000 people saved, a waffer magically turning into the body of Christ.  Should I go on?

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25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

You make a good point, but not exactly in the way you are suggesting. Most of my projecting comes from what I read; not my experience in the ward. I project more onto the Church as a whole from what I read and experience on this forum than from the ward. I don't think you or others, as leaders on this forum understand its influence on someone like me. I assume it is more representative of the Church since you all come from varied places and experiences.

There are very few ordinary Mormons on this discussion board, and a great many non-Mormons (including ex-Mormons, evangelicals, and Roman Catholics).  Each brings his/her own point of view,, which varies remarkably over a broad range of experience and faith.  You appear to completely misconceive of this board and those present here.

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

................... It has left me shaking. And yes, you are now explaining him and offering counsel to me. He is the insider; I am the "other." Let me repeat, I am the "other." I feel that more tonight than ever. Your "vantage point" is obviously very different from mine. You will go on your way tomorrow none the worse for wear. It is 2:32 in the morning here and I am still on this forum/ward/model of the Church trying to make sense of it all. 

"There may be crying in the night, but joy cometh in the morning," Navidad.  Moreover, this board is not a model of anything.  It is far too variegated.

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

My projection also comes from the hundreds of books I have bought and read by faithful Mormons of the 19th, 20th, and 21st centuries. Generally speaking the tone about non-member Christians is not very positive in the writings of many of them. I form my perspectives from them. Nibley, Talmage, Roberts, the Pratts, and many others are giants in the Mormon church. They have had an extensive influence on what the Church is today, especially in the dual sense of culture and doctrine. Yes, their broad brush generalities and often negative conclusions have influenced me.  This forum and the writings I have read of the great Mormons of the past  have made me project certain attributes onto the Church as a whole. You are right. Then someone will say, "Don't let those old guys influence you!" Well, yes they do. They are the ones who have made the Church what it is today, are they not? Every one I mentioned are listed on the list of great intellects of the Mormon faith. So yes, I go out and buy and read their books and writings. And yes, I generalize onto the Church. I would suggest that of the three influences I have mentioned (ward, this forum, and the writings of the Church fathers) this forum has had the greatest impact on me. To be fair, the Church History department has been a beacon of kindness, encouragement, and support to me. .....................

Your reading is probably far too narrow in purview.  I would recommend that you read a broad range of non-Mormon scholars on the Mormon phenomenon:  Try Margaret Barker, Jan Shipps, Stephen Webb, Mosser & Owen, Ernst Benz, Eduard Meyer, Robert M. Grant, Massimo Introvigne, W. D. Davies, Krister Stendahl, Ann Taves, Harold Bloom, Martin Marty, et al.

That might help give you some perspective.

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

And yes, you are now explaining him and offering counsel to me. He is the insider; I am the "other.

Well, I am not particularly understanding why Robert has chosen this approach with you.  It is not something I would have expected from him.  I wouldn't label your comments as "false witness" when I disagree with them, but misunderstandings that are on the same level as my own.  Robert's approach here feels as "outside" to me as anything else, though at other times he has posts that really resonate with me.

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52 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Moreover, this board is not a model of anything.  It is far too variegated.

This I completely agree with.  We are our own unique thing; not random, but unorganized matter constantly morphing around a slightly fixed center.  And we generally come more from the fringe imo because few Saints enjoy talking religion this constantly.  It is a rather small and select (in terms of our focus on talking with others about many things Mormon (all communities tying back into Joseph Smith and the Beginnings...).

And no one is a leader, save perhaps by respect people give them...but everyone ends up disagrees with everyone else on something if they post long enough.  There isn't one person here who could say something that would lead me not to say exactly what I wanted to say before UNLESS they had managed to change my mind or caused me to look at something a new way...something that occurs more often with nonbelievers and nontraditional believers for me  (because I have generally heard traditional views before)...

Except for Nemesis, the board's owner and the other mods.  They could get me to be silent.  But we come and go as we please without obligation or duty.

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3 hours ago, california boy said:

I can thing of a whole lot of other things Church members mock that others think of as being quite sacred and importnat in their lives.  I don't think you have really thought about this issue in very broad terms.  Religions that hold the cow as sacred or religions that are unwilling to swat a mosqueto because they don't believe in killing anything, anything new age, certainly gay marriage is not really a marriage.  Statues of Buddah.  Jehovah Witnesses and their 144,000 people saved, a waffer magically turning into the body of Christ.  Should I go on?

I am talking on a consistent basis, conversation is directed there to these specific topics.  I have never heard statues of .Buddha or anything about Hinduism being mocked myself, so I am assuming given I have lived in many states a a few countries, such are not common practices or habits...especially when .I compare what I hear members saying in political contexts (I think there are habits of mocking there, but what group is being mocked depends more on location and individual affinity).  I never knew anyone off line who knew JW belief well enough to mock the 144,000.  AntiCatholic comments do pop up from time to time offline and .I have heard friends and family report them, but besides the Trinity, Crucifixes, celibacy, and form of baptism, I am not sure I have heard anything else Catholic mocked more than once, something unique to that individual.  The other two traditions of ridicule of beliefs I have seen target Easy Grace and extreme Calvinism.

I am talking about cultural habits focuses for mocking, rather than just the action of it occurring.  Not saying this is the only stuff that gets mocked, just what feels more institutionalized to target in the sense of our culture, not our teachings, in terms of religious faith.  In essence, I was disagreeing with this comment by Robert:  "Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike, and it is quite rare in adult Mormons" as I don't think it is quite rare as well as contrasting my experience with Bernard who says it has been years for him.

These days I hear more mocking of activists atheists, primarily that they think they know more than they do, so their arguments are poorly formed.  But politics yields tens times, maybe a hundred times incidents of mocking everywhere I have live among church members...possibly because that is something we can share with friends outside the church easily?

-----

Is there a significant faith that has included gay marriage as one of their faith tenets?  

It is usually framed in more in political or health terms when I see it mocked among members and it is more often gay activists that are the target...except now you have me thinking, the strongest digs might be two for one...seems more immoral labels than religious insults to me in those cases, but perhaps those are seen as one and the same by some.

----

Those who want to mock can always find stuff to mock. What is mocked is an endless list, I suspect.  I am not saying Saints are immune or even highly resistant (though I can dream).  This board has plenty examples of mocking from all views, though I see most of it as light hearted teasing because I feel relatively safe...but I may be reading it wrong.  

There are however few religious beliefs that have been culturally targeted in the overall Saint community over the years for criticism, which is too often framed in ridicule, imo.  The Trinity and non immersion baptism are the most global in my experience, Easy Grace the most disrespected in terms of having little value, and extreme Calvinism the most intense negative expression (I think of it as the blasphemy experience for Saints, perhaps parallel to how many other Christians view our belief that man is of God's species).  Offline, I do rarely hear any of these but I know others who feel their wards go there too often.  I hope those types of wards are few, but have my doubts given the easy prejudice I see with politics.  Not uncommon on the board to see these topics with what might be ridicule/teasing/pithy commentary depending on POV.

Edited by Calm

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4 hours ago, Navidad said:

Wow! Now anti-Mormonism is being defined as one who doesn't believe in Mormonism. I never heard that one before. That sweeps with a pretty broad brush, doesn't it? And now one is either with Mormons or against Mormons, right? Well if that is my forced choice, I am with Mormons and have been so for thirty years now.

I seek very hard to understand them and obviously as with any quest don't always succeed. I have taken a year out of my life to personally engage in every way I know how with Mormons, including on this forum. I have also, during that same time traveled and read as much as I can to better understand the non-member Christian's sometimes toxic reaction to them. There is a shared antagonism that bears examination and understanding. I haven't quite figured it out yet and have occasionally gotten caught up in it. This summer I will traveling from Mexico City to Boston, to Portland, Claremont, and SLC to continue my journey. This forum is a microcosm of intra-Mormon dialogue. I learn much from you all. There is almost no interfaith dialogue here that is of a positive nature. I regret when I get caught up and contribute to that in a negative way. 

Yes, I have formed opinions during that time of a very complex faith and people who are both warm and affirming, and not always consistent in their appraisal of "the other." As is true of me, there are often mixed messages. It is my measured experience that the force is strong with them. Sometimes that force is used for and sometimes against. My wife and I love the folks in our ward. If that were not true, they would not have the ability to hurt us. As with any experience of trying to get to know someone on a close, personal, and intimate basis, especially in an isolated and rural area, there are ups and downs in what is, at its heart a cross-cultural exploration. I thank our Heavenly Father for the ups and take responsibility for my part in the downs. 

I don't attend church and don't believe in christianity. So, I obviously don't speak for the members here. I was simply pointing out to how some want to view any person with a disagreement with Mormonism as an anti-mormon when the person instead is merely disagreeing with some aspect of it or relating how they do not believe it any more. Faith, testimony, and trust are easily lost when faced with contradictory information. So, labels are thrown about and arguments ensue over what was said by this leader or that and what is truly historical and if history even matters, etc., resulting in some being quick to label someone as antimormon if they merely disagree.

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On 3/3/2019 at 12:20 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Doesn't Youtube remove hate speech?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYhRZo2HPc .

Does Barnes & Noble remove anti-Mormon hate speech?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UYnriOW96U .

In fact, anti-Mormon literature seems to be disappearing:  https://religionnews.com/2017/07/11/rip-anti-mormon-literature/ .

However, hate-crimes against Mormons have been increasing in recent years:  https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900050212/the-fbi-has-been-tracking-crimes-against-latter-day-saints-for-3-years-heres-why.html .  And the FBI is keeping track of that.

And it is still acceptable to mock Mormons -- https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-ignorance-of-mocking-mormonism/545975/ .

 

  

Huh, Not suprised.  Seems like after a couple generations Hispanics Americanize just like everyone else.  Mom and I talk about this, it's kind of interesting just how much they become like the rest of us.  Not saying it's a bad thing, it's just interesting to see the same cultural traits we have bleed into new arrivals. 

One thing about those hate crime laws i'd consider, are the people committing them felons?  Problem with a lot of the protests we've seen from Antifa, a lot of the protestors have rap sheets and are probably felons.  the Feds can document all they like, felons have little to lose. Idiots are everywhere, that being said your average joe with a job and something to lose is going to think twice before he does something that stupid, esp. with social media being what it is now.  For me that's the scary new reality, it's so easy to become homeless and be charged with a crime that can ruin your career and life, once the system has screwed you so much, crime is one of the few options you have left.  That and you are in a way invincible, since you have nothing left to lose in life you can be as horrible as you want, what's the worse they'll do?  Throw you in jail and give you a warm bed and 3 meals?

 

Going to guess you guys are similar, one thing i'll give the LDS I have on my facebook, they watch what they say and post.  A few even keep their LDS faith to themselves.  I remember at DI, they would tell us to keep quiet about that, considering that about half the people working there were victims of domestic abuse that point really sunk in.  People are mean.

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

I am talking on a consistent basis, conversation is directed there to these specific topics.  I have never heard statues of .Buddha or anything about Hinduism being mocked myself, so I am assuming given I have lived in many states a a few countries, such are not common practices or habits...especially when .I compare what I hear members saying in political contexts (I think there are habits of mocking there, but what group is being mocked depends more on location and individual affinity).  I never knew anyone off line who knew JW belief well enough to mock the 144,000.  AntiCatholic comments do pop up from time to time offline and .I have heard friends and family report them, but besides the Trinity, Crucifixes, celibacy, and form of baptism, I am not sure I have heard anything else Catholic mocked more than once, something unique to that individual.  The other two traditions of ridicule of beliefs I have seen target Easy Grace and extreme Calvinism.

I am talking about cultural habits focuses for mocking, rather than just the action of it occurring.  Not saying this is the only stuff that gets mocked, just what feels more institutionalized to target in the sense of our culture, not our teachings, in terms of religious faith.  In essence, I was disagreeing with this comment by Robert:  "Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike, and it is quite rare in adult Mormons" as I don't think it is quite rare as well as contrasting my experience with Bernard who says it has been years for him.

These days I hear more mocking of activists atheists, primarily that they think they know more than they do, so their arguments are poorly formed.  But politics yields tens times, maybe a hundred times incidents of mocking everywhere I have live among church members...possibly because that is something we can share with friends outside the church easily?

-----

Is there a significant faith that has included gay marriage as one of their faith tenets?  

It is usually framed in more in political or health terms when I see it mocked among members and it is more often gay activists that are the target...except now you have me thinking, the strongest digs might be two for one...seems more immoral labels than religious insults to me in those cases, but perhaps those are seen as one and the same by some.

----

Those who want to mock can always find stuff to mock. What is mocked is an endless list, I suspect.  I am not saying Saints are immune or even highly resistant (though I can dream).  This board has plenty examples of mocking from all views, though I see most of it as light hearted teasing because I feel relatively safe...but I may be reading it wrong.  

There are however few religious beliefs that have been culturally targeted in the overall Saint community over the years for criticism, which is too often framed in ridicule, imo.  The Trinity and non immersion baptism are the most global in my experience, Easy Grace the most disrespected in terms of having little value, and extreme Calvinism the most intense negative expression (I think of it as the blasphemy experience for Saints, perhaps parallel to how many other Christians view our belief that man is of God's species).  Offline, I do rarely hear any of these but I know others who feel their wards go there too often.  I hope those types of wards are few, but have my doubts given the easy prejudice I see with politics.  Not uncommon on the board to see these topics with what might be ridicule/teasing/pithy commentary depending on POV.

You know, something i've noticed stateside recently, on a whole religions, at least Christian based ones are becoming very Partisan like.  The Lutheran Church Missouri synod as well as a few other bodies are really going at it.  One thing that bothers me, they've become anti masonic and call the ELCA non Lutheran.  Their new president has done a wonderful job of scaring people away, now they're scrambling for new blood.  One idea he had was to build churches in what's left of German American communities.  Nice, the Lutherans sold them out during WWI, now that they're not doing so hot they want them back, how hypocritical.  Big suprise why a lot of people esp. single men see that stuff and run.  Seems like more and more religious people are just out to slit each others throats, I'll never understand why.  Even the LDS growth rates and slowed down to about what everyone else has, I think people esp. young people have had it and just washed their hands of religion in general. 

 

What bothers me about the people who are so big on cherry picking, what good have they done?  When was the last time they volunteered at a soup kitchen or a shelter?  When was the last time they rolled up their sleeves and did what Jesus did?  You can read the first gospel of St. Matthew and as far as I can tell they're not doing any of the things Jesus did or taught.  Maybe the Pharisees...

Think the other thing that makes me curious, if this ever gets really, I mean really out of hand, how violent could it get?  Would they learn the lesson Europe did hundreds of years ago and behave or just destroy everything?  There's a reason why the Church in places like Germany and Austria is so intertwined with the state, when you have almost 10 million people dead from a religious war that almost led to a foreign power invading you, you start to ask why?  Esp. when your lucky enough to survive it.

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6 hours ago, Navidad said:

Most of my projecting comes from what I read; not my experience in the ward. I project more onto the Church as a whole from what I read and experience on this forum than from the ward. I don't think you or others, as leaders on this forum understand its influence on someone like me. I assume it is more representative of the Church since you all come from varied places and experiences

Just my opinion, but what you see on this board is not representative of what you will find in personal contact with Mormons. Anonymity here, which I think is a two edged sword, allows people to be more direct in their opinions. I think many of us, myself included, do not "hear" ourselves the way others do when we are typing on a message board. 

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3 hours ago, Exiled said:

I don't attend church and don't believe in christianity. So, I obviously don't speak for the members here. I was simply pointing out to how some want to view any person with a disagreement with Mormonism as an anti-mormon when the person instead is merely disagreeing with some aspect of it or relating how they do not believe it any more. Faith, testimony, and trust are easily lost when faced with contradictory information. So, labels are thrown about and arguments ensue over what was said by this leader or that and what is truly historical and if history even matters, etc., resulting in some being quick to label someone as antimormon if they merely disagree.

Thanks for the clarification. Two days ago I might not have agreed with you. Today I do.

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2 hours ago, poptart said:

Huh, Not suprised.  Seems like after a couple generations Hispanics Americanize just like everyone else.  Mom and I talk about this, it's kind of interesting just how much they become like the rest of us.  Not saying it's a bad thing, it's just interesting to see the same cultural traits we have bleed into new arrivals. 

I think you're right about that.  At least that was my observation during 20 years living in Los Angeles.  The transition from plurality Anglo to plurality Hispanic took place there during that period, but nothing really changed.  Hispanic families were just like the Anglo families in so many ways, and the Hispanic parents were busy doing the same things as the Anglo parents (education, work, etc.).  The politics shifted, but actually remained the same.

2 hours ago, poptart said:

One thing about those hate crime laws i'd consider, are the people committing them felons?  Problem with a lot of the protests we've seen from Antifa, a lot of the protestors have rap sheets and are probably felons.  the Feds can document all they like, felons have little to lose. Idiots are everywhere, that being said your average joe with a job and something to lose is going to think twice before he does something that stupid, esp. with social media being what it is now.  For me that's the scary new reality, it's so easy to become homeless and be charged with a crime that can ruin your career and life, once the system has screwed you so much, crime is one of the few options you have left.  That and you are in a way invincible, since you have nothing left to lose in life you can be as horrible as you want, what's the worse they'll do?  Throw you in jail and give you a warm bed and 3 meals?

We used to call that "three hots and a cot."

2 hours ago, poptart said:

Going to guess you guys are similar, one thing i'll give the LDS I have on my facebook, they watch what they say and post.  A few even keep their LDS faith to themselves.  I remember at DI, they would tell us to keep quiet about that, considering that about half the people working there were victims of domestic abuse that point really sunk in.  People are mean.

I enjoyed working at DI in L.A. on occasion.  Other times I worked in the adjacent canning facility.  People there seemed cheerful.  At least outwardly.

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15 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I think you're right about that.  At least that was my observation during 20 years living in Los Angeles.  The transition from plurality Anglo to plurality Hispanic took place there during that period, but nothing really changed.  Hispanic families were just like the Anglo families in so many ways, and the Hispanic parents were busy doing the same things as the Anglo parents (education, work, etc.).  The politics shifted, but actually remained the same.

We used to call that "three hots and a cot."

I enjoyed working at DI in L.A. on occasion.  Other times I worked in the adjacent canning facility.  People there seemed cheerful.  At least outwardly.

Ohh man haven't heard three hots and a cot in a long time.  You've lived in LA so you definetly know about the struggle that the police have.  Think they passed a bill recently that made any theft under $1,000 a non felony.  There's so much crime from the homeless and other undesirables combined with prison overcrowding they don't have much choice.  Add into the mix the horrible gun laws, yeah I'd never live there. 

Tell me about it, I see hispanic parents showing the cartoons their kids watch to the other parents, at best they're marginally Catholic.  That's the other thing, wow am I noticing Hispanics mirroring Anglos as far as religion goes, they treat it like clothes, some change them more than others. 
Anymore, I'm really starting to think that stuff is cultural and it's more so European Catholics who really hold onto that stuff.  In Germany, I think Catholics are still the majority.  In the countryside, esp. in Bavaria they run a lot of the schools and have a lot of nursing and rehab facilities.  Something most people don't realize, not only is religion asked on gov't ID, it's even brought up at work because of the Church tax.  Next time they give the LDS a hard time over their tithe, bring up places like Germany, it's about 9-10%, the gov't gets a cut and they collect it.  What's worse, the Catholic Church over there even tries to collect if from foreigners.  For Catholics, they even try to find their baptismal records if they're from someplace else in the world.  Also, it's a set amount, atleast with the LDS you can negotiate with the Bishop if you had a bad year, not so much over there.  Part of me is all for it, the Catholic Church does an amazing amount of good.  Something about a lot of people here the LDS made me appreciate, as a rule they want something for nothing.  Big suprise the LDS had the rockstar growth rate they did, they had the funds. 

DI was interesting, how much of the food from their farms makes it to city foodbanks?  I know the DI I was at had people off the street walking in just wanting handouts, the managers told em to work for a few hours and they still refused.  Would get annoyed at people constantly asking me to mark prices down, and I was the non member there.  Think one of the sadder things I learned is how many people convert just to leech off church welfare.  I'm grateful for the help I got but geez, amazing how shameless some people are.

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10 minutes ago, poptart said:

Ohh man haven't heard three hots and a cot in a long time.  You've lived in LA so you definetly know about the struggle that the police have.  Think they passed a bill recently that made any theft under $1,000 a non felony.  There's so much crime from the homeless and other undesirables combined with prison overcrowding they don't have much choice.  Add into the mix the horrible gun laws, yeah I'd never live there. 

Tell me about it, I see hispanic parents showing the cartoons their kids watch to the other parents, at best they're marginally Catholic.  That's the other thing, wow am I noticing Hispanics mirroring Anglos as far as religion goes, they treat it like clothes, some change them more than others. 
Anymore, I'm really starting to think that stuff is cultural and it's more so European Catholics who really hold onto that stuff.  In Germany, I think Catholics are still the majority.  In the countryside, esp. in Bavaria they run a lot of the schools and have a lot of nursing and rehab facilities.  Something most people don't realize, not only is religion asked on gov't ID, it's even brought up at work because of the Church tax.  Next time they give the LDS a hard time over their tithe, bring up places like Germany, it's about 9-10%, the gov't gets a cut and they collect it.  What's worse, the Catholic Church over there even tries to collect if from foreigners.  For Catholics, they even try to find their baptismal records if they're from someplace else in the world.  Also, it's a set amount, atleast with the LDS you can negotiate with the Bishop if you had a bad year, not so much over there.  Part of me is all for it, the Catholic Church does an amazing amount of good.  Something about a lot of people here the LDS made me appreciate, as a rule they want something for nothing.  Big suprise the LDS had the rockstar growth rate they did, they had the funds. 

DI was interesting, how much of the food from their farms makes it to city foodbanks?  I know the DI I was at had people off the street walking in just wanting handouts, the managers told em to work for a few hours and they still refused.  Would get annoyed at people constantly asking me to mark prices down, and I was the non member there.  Think one of the sadder things I learned is how many people convert just to leech off church welfare.  I'm grateful for the help I got but geez, amazing how shameless some people are.

Yeh, I always ask WWJD?

Your comments give me a chuckle, poptart.  Thanks.  ☺️

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Posted (edited)
7 hours ago, Calm said:

I am talking on a consistent basis, conversation is directed there to these specific topics.  I have never heard statues of .Buddha or anything about Hinduism being mocked myself, so I am assuming given I have lived in many states a a few countries, such are not common practices or habits...especially when .I compare what I hear members saying in political contexts (I think there are habits of mocking there, but what group is being mocked depends more on location and individual affinity).  I never knew anyone off line who knew JW belief well enough to mock the 144,000.  AntiCatholic comments do pop up from time to time offline and .I have heard friends and family report them, but besides the Trinity, Crucifixes, celibacy, and form of baptism, I am not sure I have heard anything else Catholic mocked more than once, something unique to that individual.  The other two traditions of ridicule of beliefs I have seen target Easy Grace and extreme Calvinism.

I am talking about cultural habits focuses for mocking, rather than just the action of it occurring.  Not saying this is the only stuff that gets mocked, just what feels more institutionalized to target in the sense of our culture, not our teachings, in terms of religious faith.  In essence, I was disagreeing with this comment by Robert:  "Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike, and it is quite rare in adult Mormons" as I don't think it is quite rare as well as contrasting my experience with Bernard who says it has been years for him.

These days I hear more mocking of activists atheists, primarily that they think they know more than they do, so their arguments are poorly formed.  But politics yields tens times, maybe a hundred times incidents of mocking everywhere I have live among church members...possibly because that is something we can share with friends outside the church easily?

-----

Is there a significant faith that has included gay marriage as one of their faith tenets?  

It is usually framed in more in political or health terms when I see it mocked among members and it is more often gay activists that are the target...except now you have me thinking, the strongest digs might be two for one...seems more immoral labels than religious insults to me in those cases, but perhaps those are seen as one and the same by some.

----

Those who want to mock can always find stuff to mock. What is mocked is an endless list, I suspect.  I am not saying Saints are immune or even highly resistant (though I can dream).  This board has plenty examples of mocking from all views, though I see most of it as light hearted teasing because I feel relatively safe...but I may be reading it wrong.  

There are however few religious beliefs that have been culturally targeted in the overall Saint community over the years for criticism, which is too often framed in ridicule, imo.  The Trinity and non immersion baptism are the most global in my experience, Easy Grace the most disrespected in terms of having little value, and extreme Calvinism the most intense negative expression (I think of it as the blasphemy experience for Saints, perhaps parallel to how many other Christians view our belief that man is of God's species).  Offline, I do rarely hear any of these but I know others who feel their wards go there too often.  I hope those types of wards are few, but have my doubts given the easy prejudice I see with politics.  Not uncommon on the board to see these topics with what might be ridicule/teasing/pithy commentary depending on POV.

Hi. My concern is not so much the mocking of certain beliefs, systems or even doctrines. My concern centers on the mocking of people, real live human beings who are not caricatures, cartoons, but real live folks. Who I am as a person was mocked last night. The invective was filled with "you statements." The shift from attacking my beliefs to demeaning me and my family was swift and unexpected. Nothing I postulated as a belief was marginalized. It was characterized as "false accusations" and then quickly moved to marginalizing me as a person . It confirmed my worst fears about the LD S faith. The final moment of his triumph was the declaration of me as an "anti-Mormon," the classic slur designed to end all debate. Oh, and for good measure, so probably was your father! Why not throw in my autistic son while you are at it? I know from thousands of hours of counseling with dysfunctional families the negative power of "you statements." Last night I experienced it first-hand! That is the kind of mocking I am talking about.

Edited by Navidad

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24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yeh, I always ask WWJD?

Your comments give me a chuckle, poptart.  Thanks.  ☺️

If you ever want an enlightening read, check out how religion still is in Europe.  I can go with Germany because I know just enough about the language and culture.  I've seen posters here go on about how secular they're getting, not quite true.  Nothing against the posters, if you don't know what and how to look for something, you won't know.  Kind of like gun rights here, the opinion of say an English or Dane will vary greatly from that of say, a Swiss or Hungarian citizen. 

Anyway, businesses are still closed on Sunday and Holidays by law, divorce is lower esp in Bavaria (The Catholic part) and abortion is technically illegal, can get one in the first trimester after going through a bunch of red tape, after that it's pretty much a criminal offense.  Real secular nation right there....

Germany Gets swag points too, vid related.  The Teutonic Order is still alive, kicking and doing a lot of good...

 

25 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi. My concern is not so much the mocking of certain beliefs, systems or even doctrines. My concern centers on the mocking of people, real live human beings who are not caricatures, cartoons, but real live folks. Who I am as a person was mocked last night. The invective was filled with "you statements." The shift from attacking my beliefs to demeaning me and my family was swift and unexpected. Nothing I postulated as a belief was marginalized. It was characterized as "false accusations" and then quickly moved to marginalizing me as a person . It confirmed my worst fears about the LD S faith. The final moment of triumph was the declaration of me as an "anti-Mormon," the classic slur designed to end all debate. Oh, and for good measure, so probably was your father! Why not throw in my autistic son while you are at it? I know from thousands of hours of counseling with dysfunctional families the negative power of "you statements." Last night I experienced it first-hand! That is the kind of mocking I am talking about.

Yep, attacking with cartoons and "memes" is all the rage nowadays.  That's why I just keep away from social media, it's such a toxic liability anymore.  You're a Mennonite right?  Wow you people are awesome.  The Amana Colony outside the quad cities is so sucessful it's not funny.  Don't worry, you guys are still close to the land, can't say the same for a lot of people here.  When tough times hit and there's no food, guess who will have the last laugh? Teehee....

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43 minutes ago, Navidad said:

Hi. My concern is not so much the mocking of certain beliefs, systems or even doctrines. My concern centers on the mocking of people, real live human beings who are not caricatures, cartoons, but real live folks. Who I am as a person was mocked last night. The invective was filled with "you statements." The shift from attacking my beliefs to demeaning me and my family was swift and unexpected. Nothing I postulated as a belief was marginalized. It was characterized as "false accusations" and then quickly moved to marginalizing me as a person . It confirmed my worst fears about the LD S faith. The final moment of triumph was the declaration of me as an "anti-Mormon," the classic slur designed to end all debate. Oh, and for good measure, so probably was your father! Why not throw in my autistic son while you are at it? I know from thousands of hours of counseling with dysfunctional families the negative power of "you statements." Last night I experienced it first-hand! That is the kind of mocking I am talking about.

This is a deliberate continuation of your false claims about the LDS Church, the LDS people, and of what was said about you by me -- based on a plethora of objectively false statements you made, for which you are not at all repentant.  This tells me who you really are.  Now you are reveling in your mockery of the LDS faith, while you pretend to be the victim.

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19 minutes ago, poptart said:

Don't worry, you guys are still close to the land, can't say the same for a lot of people here.  When tough times hit and there's no food, guess who will have the last laugh? Teehee

The last laugh will go to the people with the biggest supply of guns and ammunition.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

The last laugh will go to the people with the biggest supply of guns and ammunition.

Money and food too.  Guns are awesome, as a red blooded American I can't agree more, thing is if you don't know how to hunt and/or are unwilling to eat the intruders you shoot, you're going to have problems, fast.  You are who you eat...

Better Idea, and something folks like the Mennonites and Amish are known for, make fun with the local community.  The Amana Colony in Iowa is like 30 minutes from the quad cities, smack in the middle of red territory.  Those people don't have to worry about monsanto seeds flying into their fields due to religious freedom laws, also their German food is yummy. 

FYI, it's not so much guns that scare me now, it's drones.  China and the US are developing em like crazy, Kalishnakov just created their own, it's a suicide drone of sorts, cheap but can be guided to slap into whatever target you want.  I have a couple buddies who make drones from scratch for a security company, for a lot less money and training you can make something that can kill with a push of a button.  Also this...

If and when times get bad, my goal is to lay low and keep my mouth shut, i'll have a much better chance of survival vs. going full on mad max. 

 

Edited by poptart

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7 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

This is a deliberate continuation of your false claims about the LDS Church, the LDS people, and of what was said about you by me -- based on a plethora of objectively false statements you made, for which you are not at all repentant.  This tells me who you really are.  Now you are reveling in your mockery of the LDS faith, while you pretend to be the victim.

Wow! Seven "you statements" in three sentences. I am impressed! Let me know if we can ever chat about "what" I said.

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1 hour ago, Navidad said:

Wow! Seven "you statements" in three sentences. I am impressed! Let me know if we can ever chat about "what" I said.

I suggest that you drop the act and go back and read the libelous statements you made, reflect on them, and make a decision to repent.

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