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New Game in Town with the Antis

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Doesn't Youtube remove hate speech?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0EYhRZo2HPc .

Does Barnes & Noble remove anti-Mormon hate speech?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_UYnriOW96U .

In fact, anti-Mormon literature seems to be disappearing:  https://religionnews.com/2017/07/11/rip-anti-mormon-literature/ .

However, hate-crimes against Mormons have been increasing in recent years:  https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900050212/the-fbi-has-been-tracking-crimes-against-latter-day-saints-for-3-years-heres-why.html .  And the FBI is keeping track of that.

And it is still acceptable to mock Mormons -- https://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2017/11/the-ignorance-of-mocking-mormonism/545975/ .

 

  

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It shouldn't be OK to mock anyone. It isn't OK to mock anyone. It is not OK for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to mock non-members. it isn't OK for non-members to stereotype members. It is not OK for members to stereotype non-members. It all happens. Each side denies it; the blind spots take over and God cries. The very use of the word anti-Mormon in every day member conversation is a slur.  It is codified in member thinking and verbiage to the point it appears in testimonies, talks, and yes, threads in what appears to be a casual manner. I am not sure what the equivalent is for those who mock members, but I know that happens as well. You see, this is a two-sided problem. After practically living in a member culture the last 15 months, I would call it a tie. Members are simply culturally used to considering themselves superior in morals and standards and family living to nonmembers. Non-member Christians on the other hand view themselves as theologically superior to Mormons. That is a misrepresentation as well. The members I have met on this forum and at MHA go much deeper into theological thought than most non-member Christians I know. For the grass root folks it is probably another tie.

Most of the non-member books being written today that I have read seem to think there is less tension because young professorial members are becoming more orthodox in their writings about doctrine. This is a prevalent perception. I also believe there is truth in that. One doesn't find books from the 19th and early 20th centuries written by members talking about the similarities between members and non-members. The whole point of many of the treatises at the turn of the 20th century was to declare emphatically the difference. Google interfaith dialogue and look at all the non-member seminaries and graduate schools offering degrees or certificates in interfaith dialogue. That wasn't true twenty years ago. Good for them. 

Ok, so I am getting close to writing too much again. I wish my friends who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would rebuke those who without reproach stereotype and mock non-members. I wish the same when the reverse happens, and it does. The blind spots on both sides are almost ubiquitous. The non-members are getting better, as noted in the above post in writing less silliness. The major challenge is that denigration of non-members is written into LDS scriptures, both canonical and not. Then some say "well it really doesn't mean that!" Yes it does. some of you have convinced me of that. You all don't need CFRs from me to know what talks, verses, sections I am talking about. Ongoing and changing revelation gives me hope. In the mean time, please don't stand idly by when your member friend castigates non-members as if they are all peas in the same pod. They aren't. 

Edited by Navidad
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Posted (edited)

del

Edited by cdowis
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The anti sites have been talking about this and seeking funding for it, for at least six months now. 

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5 hours ago, Navidad said:

It shouldn't be OK to mock anyone. It isn't OK to mock anyone. It is not OK for members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to mock non-members. it isn't OK for non-members to stereotype members. It is not OK for members to stereotype non-members. It all happens. Each side denies it; the blind spots take over and God cries. The very use of the word anti-Mormon in every day member conversation is a slur.  It is codified in member thinking and verbiage to the point it appears in testimonies, talks, and yes, threads in what appears to be a casual manner. I am not sure what the equivalent is for those who mock members, but I know that happens as well. You see, this is a two-sided problem.

There is no moral equivalence between say the Jews and the anti-Jews.  Anti-Semitism is real, and the Jews do not go in for the opposite.  So too with Mormons:  Unlike the anti-Mormons, who write and speak deliberate slander, the Mormons have no equivalent hate-speech or hate books.  The anti-Mormons have even established fully funded anti-Mormon organizations dedicated to bearing false witness against the Mormons.  The Mormons have no equivalent and never have.

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

After practically living in a member culture the last 15 months, I would call it a tie. Last Sunday a very nice young member lady gave a talk as part of a youth presentation in sacrament service. She went on about how "non-member" peers of hers didn't have the high standards in dress of the member youths. It probably never dawned on her that within twenty miles of her there are Mennonite colonies full of young ladies with much higher standards of dress in terms of modesty than the young ladies of our ward who are hair and makeup style mavens.

Not to mention the Hutterites. However, it is true in general that modesty among non-Mormons has been declining for generations.  This applies as well to vulgar speech and behavior.  The exception of Hutterites, Mennonites, Chabad, and the Amish proves the general point made by that "nice young member lady" you mentioned.

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

  Members are simply culturally used to considering themselves superior in morals and standards and family living to nonmembers. It depends. What a shock it was a few weeks ago when at the ward Valentine's banquet the non-member Mennonites won by a landslide, the annual newly-wed game! That would be my wife and me! Yea for us!  (tongue in cheek) ................

I don't see my ward members going about considering themselves superior to others.  They seem very humble and Christian to me.

5 hours ago, Navidad said:

..................
Ok, so I am getting close to writing too much again. I wish my friends who are members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints would rebuke those who without reproach stereotype and mock non-members. I wish the same when the reverse happens, and it does. The blind spots are almost ubiquitous. The non-members are getting better, as noted in the above post in writing less silliness. The major challenge is that denigration of non-members is written into LDS scriptures, both canonical and not. Then some say "well it really doesn't mean that!" Yes it does. some of you have convinced me of that. You all don't need CFRs from me to know what talks, verses, sections I am talking about. Ongoing and changing revelation gives me hope. In the mean time, please don't stand idly by when your member friend castigates non-members as if they are all peas in the same pod. They aren't. 

Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike, and it is quite rare in adult Mormons.  Always has been.  Yet Mormons were viciously persecuted in the 19th century, including having their homes burnt down, property stolen, rape, and murder.  Mocking and persecuting the Roman Catholics in 19th century America was nearly as bad.  And, yes, in both the Bible and in the D&C, God has had some very harsh things to say about that.  And rightly so.

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11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Unlike the anti-Mormons, who write and speak deliberate slander, the Mormons have no equivalent hate-speech or hate books.  The anti-Mormons have even established fully funded anti-Mormon organizations dedicated to bearing false witness against the Mormons.  The Mormons have no equivalent and never have.

Blind spot alert! Anytime anyone bears false witness against another it is wrong and should be condemned. Bearing false witness includes ignoring the good as well as speaking evil. If you Google interfaith dialogue you will find many pages of non-member programs: degrees, certificates designed to create and/or foster interfaith dialogue at non-member seminaries, graduate schools and programs. There is no question this kind of cooperative and good faith effort is increasing among non-members. Methinks members are being left behind; stuck in the 50s and yes back in the 19th century. More on that later. 

Quote

However, it is true in general that modesty among non-Mormons has been declining for generations.  This applies as well to vulgar speech and behavior.

Talk about false witness. I can assure you there are many non-members with equivalent concern as members about modesty, speech, and behavior. Folks who ignore, struggle or decline their morals and passions do not do so because they are 
non-members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such a generalization and stereotype is a form of abuse and yes, persecution of the entire body of non-member Christianity. It is designed to create an ingroup (member) and outgroup (non-Member) that has been prevalent in Mormonism self concept and mindset since almost from its beginning. Bearing false witness is always wrong whether done by member or non-member. 

Quote

I don't see my ward members going about considering themselves superior to others.  They seem very humble and Christian to me.

Blind spot alert! I don't and won't disagree that many Mormons are humble and Christian in many aspects of their lives; as are many non-members. I see absolute equivalency on this among the two groups. I disagree however with your statement "I don't see my ward members going about considering themselves superior to others." I suppose this hits at the heart of sociology - the creation of in and out groups. Much of LDS history is wrapped around them creating an in-group (members) and an out-group (non-members) view of the faith and the world. This need has informed LDS scriptures, doctrines, and talks. Seeing other Christians as engaged in the "works of man," the "works of the Devil," being "so-called Christians," being blasphemous in their spiritual activities and intent, being absent from the Kingdom of God are all methods to minimize and marginalize "the other" (the non-member). It lifts up the Saint as the "only" - this is neither humble nor Christian. It is the great blind spot of Mormonism in the mind and thinking of this non-member pro-Mormon. Of course one never hears Mormons talking about non-member pro-Mormons. That doesn't fit into the story line. It doesn't allow the Saint to be superior while being humble and Christian at the same time. 

Quote

Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike, and it is quite rare in adult Mormons.

I agree completely. Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike. Unfortunately it is not rare in either the member or the non-member. This makes God cry. The non-member believes he or she is superior in theological orthodoxy to the member. The member believes he or she is superior in standards and spirituality (both positional and lifestyle-wise) as you have indicated - after all the modesty that has been declining for generations has been "among non-Mormons." Isn't that what you said? Neither attitude is accurate or pleasing to God. Both member and non-member must relinquish their long-term built-in sense of subtle and not-so-subtle superiority. Above you mentioned that "Mormons have no equivalent" to the writings and funding of the non-member. What the Mormons have done is to have built in such false witness and hate speech directly into their scripture. Wow! No need to discuss, debate, or dialogue about the inherent superiority of the Saint because God Himself testifies to it.  All of us "so-called Christians" are an "abomination" - from God's mouth to our ears. But of course "stereotyping and mocking others is "quite rare in adult Mormons." Please . . . . (Alert - somehow I posted this at this point without finishing)! 

Quote

  Always has been.  Yet Mormons were viciously persecuted in the 19th century, including having their homes burnt down, property stolen, rape, and murder.

This kind of violence is and always has been wrong. Whether member on member, member on non-member, non-member on member, or non-member on non-member, it is wrong. It was wrong during the Shepherd Wars of the 14th century and is wrong today. I would simply suggest that there is also a violence that is far more subtle; it is a violence that makes "the other" less than. Sometimes it is worse than physical violence. You see, we didn't go to services yesterday. We simply stayed home. It is so painful to be regularly reminded in a house of worship that you are less than, that there is no place for you, that your very prayers are offensive. This is a form of emotional and spiritual violence that hurts. What and where is the place of the faithful non-member in a Mormon ward? Our observation after 15 months of faithfulness is that there is none. Is not this a form of exclusion and yes, violence to us that minimizes us as "so-called Christians?" The Mormon ward at times seems more like a members-only club. I have never, in my fifty years of ministry seen anything like it. Oh how we wish it (the ward) were a place of safety, of rest, peace, and solace for us. Yes, there are multiple forms of violence; those that you mentioned and those that I have mentioned. Oh, and I simply want to point out that many groups have suffered actual physical violence for their faith in the history of the world. Each and every act of violence, exclusion, and lessening is an affront to God. Some, in all of our traditions are guilty of this. Fortunately not all or most.  Judaism has suffered terribly. It is a terrible thing. 

Quote

   And, yes, in both the Bible and in the D&C, God has had some very harsh things to say about that.  And rightly so.

God always speaks out against sin, pride, arrogance. "And rightly so." I agree completely with you on this. I believe that both members and non-members have often been guilty of sin, pride, and arrogance in their dealing with each other. It has crept into each side's doctrine, theology, dogma, and sense of self as against "the other." I condemn it wherever it raises its ugly head. I can call it nothing better than sin. I will do all I can to speak out against it whether I see it in the non-member or the member world. It is a very lonely walk. 

Edited by Navidad
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On 3/3/2019 at 6:53 AM, cdowis said:

I've seen a recent increase in the number of  antiMormon youtube  videos in Spanish.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ex+mormon+testimonio

 

Interesting (some of these are 2 -4 years old, but some are more recent).  

I have to say that IMO, you really overdo calling people anti's and overuse the term anti-Mormons.  I haven't listened to these, but some of them look to be just people expressing their feelings and experiences.  I think there are some anti-Mormons out there, but not as many as you portray or accuse.    

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3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Blind spot alert! Anytime anyone bears false witness against another it is wrong and should be condemned. Bearing false witness includes ignoring the good as well as speaking evil. If you Google interfaith dialogue you will find many pages of non-member programs: degrees, certificates designed to create and/or foster interfaith dialogue at non-member seminaries, graduate schools and programs. There is no question this kind of cooperative and good faith effort is increasing among non-members. Methinks members are being left behind; stuck in the 50s and yes back in the 19th century. More on that later. 

Talk about false witness. I can assure you there are many non-members with equivalent concern as members about modesty, speech, and behavior. Folks who ignore, struggle or decline their morals and passions do not do so because they are non-members of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Such a generalization and stereotype is a form of abuse and yes, persecution of the entire body of non-member Christianity. It is designed to create an ingroup (member) and outgroup (non-Member) that has been prevalent in Mormonism self concept and mindset since almost from its beginning. Bearing false witness is always wrong whether done by member or non-member. 

Your comments here are completely false and misunderstand what I said:  "It is true in general that modesty among non-Mormons has been declining for generations.  This applies as well to vulgar speech and behavior."  This tendency in the general population is well-documented and immediately apparent simply by observing people on the street, in buses, at work, etc., in America at large.  Most people are not traditional Christians of any sort and most openly use vulgar speech, drink booze, and mock those who do not behave in a dissolute manner.  Your narrow interpretation that it only refers to Christians who do not happen to be Mormons is astonishing and false.  Your approach to this discussion is apparently based on them-and-us nonsense, instead of looking at the entire population of America.  That has led you to ignore reality and to make a series of false statements about Mormons and non-Mormons, in which all non-Mormons are active traditional Christians (who are not being criticized by Mormons, even though you invent that odd and unaccountable notion).

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Blind spot alert! I don't and won't disagree that many Mormons are humble and Christian in many aspects of their lives; as are many non-members. I see absolute equivalency on this among the two groups. I disagree however with your statement "I don't see my ward members going about considering themselves superior to others." I suppose this hits at the heart of sociology - the creation of in and out groups. Much of LDS history is wrapped around them creating an in-group (members) and an out-group (non-members) view of the faith and the world. This need has informed LDS scriptures, doctrines, and talks. Seeing other Christians as engaged in the "works of man," the "works of the Devil," being "so-called Christians," being blasphemous in their spiritual activities and intent, being absent from the Kingdom of God are all methods to minimize and marginalize "the other" (the non-member). It lifts up the Saint as the "only" - this is neither humble nor Christian. It is the great blind spot of Mormonism in the mind and thinking of this non-member pro-Mormon. Of course one never hears Mormons talking about non-member pro-Mormons. That doesn't fit into the story line. It doesn't allow the Saint to be superior while being humble and Christian at the same time.

Nearly every statement you make here is blatantly false, mostly because you adopt the ridiculous claim of them-and-us, as though there is some sort of warfare going on between Mormons and traditional Christians.  Mormons I know all appreciate traditional Christian behavior and contrast that with the general population.  You appear not able to differentiate, which leads you to make a series of harsh and unrealistic statements.  I detect some sort of anger as well, but not sure why.  No feliz Navidad for you?

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I agree completely. Stereotyping and mocking others is unchristianlike. Unfortunately it is not rare in either the member or the non-member. This makes God cry. The non-member believes he or she is superior in theological orthodoxy to the member. The member believes he or she is superior in standards and spirituality (both positional and lifestyle-wise) as you have indicated - after all the modesty that has been declining for generations has been "among non-Mormons." Isn't that what you said? Neither attitude is accurate or pleasing to God. Both member and non-member must relinquish their long-term built-in sense of subtle and not-so-subtle superiority. Above you mentioned that "Mormons have no equivalent" to the writings and funding of the non-member. What the Mormons have done is to have built in such false witness and hate speech directly into their scripture. Wow! No need to discuss, debate, or dialogue about the inherent superiority of the Saint because God Himself testifies to it.  All of us "so-called Christians" are an "abomination" - from God's mouth to our ears. But of course "stereotyping and mocking others is "quite rare in adult Mormons." Please . . . . (Alert - somehow I posted this at this point without finishing)! 

Again a surfeit of false statements.  Why?  It is certainly not based on a factual assessment.  When evangelical Presbyterian Dr. Mouw expressed contrition for all the lies told about Mormons by some of his colleagues, everyone realized that most traditional Christians are not anti-Mormons, but he was well aware of the many evangelicals who had adopted the anti-Mormon hate speech and actions, and he expressed sorrow for that.  He knew full well that the Mormons had not responded in kind, but you do not seem to understand that.  God has always condemned evil, but you conveniently ignore the biblical condemnation of evil by God because then you would have to adopt the view that the Israelites or the prophets had merely (as you say) "built in such false witness and hate speech directly into their scripture."  Are you saying that God and his Son use hate speech?   Are you saying that traditional Christians only put their own hate-filled passions into the Bible?

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

This kind of violence is and always has been wrong. Whether member on member, member on non-member, non-member on member, or non-member on non-member, it is wrong. It was wrong during the Shepherd Wars of the 14th century and is wrong today. I would simply suggest that there is also a violence that is far more subtle; it is a violence that makes "the other" less than. Sometimes it is worse than physical violence. You see, we didn't go to services yesterday. We simply stayed home. It is so painful to be regularly reminded in a house of worship that you are less than, that there is no place for you, that your very prayers are offensive. This is a form of emotional and spiritual violence that hurts. What and where is the place of the faithful non-member in a Mormon ward? Our observation after 15 months of faithfulness is that there is none. Is not this a form of exclusion and yes, violence to us that minimizes us as "so-called Christians?" The Mormon ward at times seems more like a members-only club. I have never, in my fifty years of ministry seen anything like it. Oh how we wish it (the ward) were a place of safety, of rest, peace, and solace for us. Yes, there are multiple forms of violence; those that you mentioned and those that I have mentioned. Oh, and I simply want to point out that many groups have suffered actual physical violence for their faith in the history of the world. Each and every act of violence, exclusion, and lessening is an affront to God. Some, in all of our traditions are guilty of this. Fortunately not all or most.  Judaism has suffered terribly. It is a terrible thing. 

God always speaks out against sin, pride, arrogance. "And rightly so." I agree completely with you on this. I believe that both members and non-members have often been guilty of sin, pride, and arrogance in their dealing with each other. It has crept into each side's doctrine, theology, dogma, and sense of self as against "the other." I condemn it wherever it raises its ugly head. I can call it nothing better than sin. I will do all I can to speak out against it whether I see it in the non-member or the member world. It is a very lonely walk. 

For me it is the good guys versus the bad guys.  That is how Mormons see it.  For you it is Mormons versus non-Mormons.  I know of no Mormons who think that way.  In fact that is a rather sick view of life.  Mormons take the healthy view that traditional Christians and Jews are their allies.  Mormons very much like the idea of interfaith fellowship and dialogue.  You need to get that chip off your shoulder and take the more friendly and kind approach desired by Jesus.

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Then who am I allowed to mock? :(

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17 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Then who am I allowed to mock? :(

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2 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your comments here are completely false and misunderstand what I said:  "It is true in general that modesty among non-Mormons has been declining for generations.  This applies as well to vulgar speech and behavior."  This tendency in the general population is well-documented and immediately apparent simply by observing people on the street, in buses, at work, etc., in America at large.  Most people are not traditional Christians of any sort and most openly use vulgar speech, drink booze, and mock those who do not behave in a dissolute manner.  Your narrow interpretation that it only refers to Christians who do not happen to be Mormons is astonishing and false.  Your approach to this discussion is apparently based on them-and-us nonsense, instead of looking at the entire population of America.  That has led you to ignore reality and to make a series of false statements about Mormons and non-Mormons, in which all non-Mormons are active traditional Christians (who are not being criticized by Mormons, even though you invent that odd and unaccountable notion).

Nearly every statement you make here is blatantly false, mostly because you adopt the ridiculous claim of them-and-us, as though there is some sort of warfare going on between Mormons and traditional Christians.  Mormons I know all appreciate traditional Christian behavior and contrast that with the general population.  You appear not able to differentiate, which leads you to make a series of harsh and unrealistic statements.  I detect some sort of anger as well, but not sure why.  No feliz Navidad for you?

Again a surfeit of false statements.  Why?  It is certainly not based on a factual assessment.  When evangelical Presbyterian Dr. Mouw expressed contrition for all the lies told about Mormons by some of his colleagues, everyone realized that most traditional Christians are not anti-Mormons, but he was well aware of the many evangelicals who had adopted the anti-Mormon hate speech and actions, and he expressed sorrow for that.  He knew full well that the Mormons had not responded in kind, but you do not seem to understand that.  God has always condemned evil, but you conveniently ignore the biblical condemnation of evil by God because then you would have to adopt the view that the Israelites or the prophets had merely (as you say) "built in such false witness and hate speech directly into their scripture."  Are you saying that God and his Son use hate speech?   Are you saying that traditional Christians only put their own hate-filled passions into the Bible?

For me it is the good guys versus the bad guys.  That is how Mormons see it.  For you it is Mormons versus non-Mormons.  I know of no Mormons who think that way.  In fact that is a rather sick view of life.  Mormons take the healthy view that traditional Christians and Jews are their allies.  Mormons very much like the idea of interfaith fellowship and dialogue.  You need to get that chip off your shoulder and take the more friendly and kind approach desired by Jesus.

You are absolutely correct on a number of fronts: First, when you write non-members or non-Mormons I do read into it that you are speaking specifically of non-Mormon Christians. I never hear Mormons on this board or anywhere else rail against the non-member population of the earth as a whole. The non-member Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist, etc. is much more likely to be the target, whether in the LDS scriptures, talks, or posts. Is that not true? When I as a non-member hear folks testify and rail against non-members, what am I to think? She is talking about the Fulani in Africa? Nope, I personalize it. It is my experience.

Second, you are right that I believe there is a spiritual warfare going on between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians. There is a song very popular in non-LDS Christian circles called "Onward Christian Soldiers" in which it clearly states "Christ our royal master leads against the foe." Too many non-member Christians have included LDS Christians in "the foe." I believe that makes God cry. I am very opposed to that. Many, including leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reciprocate calling non-Member Christians "so-called Christians" who practice the "works of men" or of the devil, stylize us (non-member Christians) as sons of Canaan, followers of Baal. We blaspheme. We are the enemy, the Gentile, and on and on. Surely you can't deny any of that. Those epithets are not directed at the Buddhists or Sikhs of the world. Do you really think if I put together negative quotes from all the years from LDS leaders, writers, and thinkers about non-Member Christians from other denominations that I would have a dearth of sources? Will it take a 300 page book to help you take off the blinders? Certainly Saints were mistreated in the Missouri and Illinois period? Have you never read of the efforts of the Saints during those same years to disrupt, stop, foil the camp meetings of the Methodists and Presbyterians? Have you never read any of the diaries of those folks? I have.

I appreciate Dr. Mouw very much and know of all his works. He expressed contrition for what "his folks" had done. I applauded him for that when he did it. It was neither the time nor place nor would it have honored his and Dr. Zacharias' commitment to the Brethren for him to share his grievances. In fact they both specifically promised not to do that when they met with the Brethren prior to the tabernacle meeting. That is in the record.

You are also right on your astute observation that I have a veneer of anger. Right again. One thing I have never been called by an LDS Christian is an ally. Not in 15 months of faithful attendance and participation in a ward. There have been many ways we have been marginalized, some of them of a political nature within the larger Church community. Those things hurt. I can't and won't go into them here. I would betray too many confidences. Yesterday was Sunday. I wanted to go to church. Neither of us had the heart to be wounded anymore. I believe the Holy Spirit wants us there for a purpose. I don't know what that is. I am probably more frustrated than angry, although I acknowledge it is not easy to discern the difference.

Sometimes I vent here. It is safer. As far as I know there is no one here I know or love. This forum's arrows bite, but they don't make me ache. I have said on several occasions on this forum that I am walking a lonely walk. Your characterization of my words as "completely false," a "narrow interpretation," "astonishing and false," "nonsense," "odd and unaccountable," "false" again at least four times, "a sick view of life,"  and on and on hurt. If it was your purpose to put me down you have succeeded.  I didn't include any attacks on you in my posts or replies. I still haven't. I have affirmed your interpretations and have used I statements. I have owned my interpretations, experiences, and of course, my biases as a result of those. I want to learn how to do a better job at interfaith dialogue. One of my challenges is I haven't found a partner yet in the greater body of the Saints to dialogue with (sorry for the prepositional ending). Chip on my shoulder? Maybe. I'd rather describe it as a "bee in my bonnet!" That is much more Mennonite. So, bottom line I have learned from this "conversation." I have to do better to figure out when you all are talking about the rest of humanity in the world, and when you are talking about us non-LDS "so called Christians." Yes, you are also right - no feliz navidad. The walk is too lonely. Next week I turn 70. I am tired and discouraged. Very discouraged.  

Edited by Navidad

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3 hours ago, Navidad said:

You are absolutely correct on a number of fronts: First, when you write non-members or non-Mormons I do read into it that you are speaking specifically of non-Mormon Christians. I never hear Mormons on this board or anywhere else rail against the non-member population of the earth as a whole. The non-member Christian, evangelical, fundamentalist, etc. is much more likely to be the target, whether in the LDS scriptures, talks, or posts. Is that not true? When I as a non-member hear folks testify and rail against non-members, what am I to think? She is talking about the Fulani in Africa? Nope, I personalize it. It is my experience.

Well, of course, if you attend an LDS ward or branch with an anger problem, the Mormons there may indeed take you to be the enemy.  If you constantly make false accusations against them, naturally they will consider you as not a nice person, and they will not want to spend time arguing with you.  This board is different:  We argue here all the time.  ☺️

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

Second, you are right that I believe there is a spiritual warfare going on between LDS Christians and non-LDS Christians. There is a song very popular in non-LDS Christian circles called "Onward Christian Soldiers" in which it clearly states "Christ our royal master leads against the foe." Too many non-member Christians have included LDS Christians in "the foe." I believe that makes God cry.

If you really knew Mormons, you would know that our Hymnbook has that same song and that we frequently sing it.  When we do, we do not see it as spiritual warfare against everyone, but more like the same feelings that the Salvation Army has when they sing it.  God cries when he finds you misinterpreting that song as warfare against good people.  I know of no Mormon who sees it that way.  Most Mormons view the song as expressing the missionary spirit, taking the Gospel to all of humanity with kindness in our hearts.  Our missionaries do not go out with the spirit of contention.  How do you interpret that song?

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am very opposed to that. Many, including leaders in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints reciprocate calling non-Member Christians "so-called Christians" who practice the "works of men" or of the devil, stylize us (non-member Christians) as sons of Canaan, followers of Baal. We blaspheme. We are the enemy, the Gentile, and on and on. Surely you can't deny any of that. Those epithets are not directed at the Buddhists or Sikhs of the world. Do you really think if I put together negative quotes from all the years from LDS leaders, writers, and thinkers about non-Member Christians from other denominations that I would have a dearth of sources? Will it take a 300 page book to help you take off the blinders? Certainly Saints were mistreated in the Missouri and Illinois period? Have you never read of the efforts of the Saints during those same years to disrupt, stop, foil the camp meetings of the Methodists and Presbyterians? Have you never read any of the diaries of those folks? I have.

These are all false allegations and bespeak a very benighted view of LDS faith and history.  Your purpose is clearly to attack the Mormons in typical anti-Mormon fashion.  You should be ashamed, Navidad.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

I appreciate Dr. Mouw very much and know of all his works. He expressed contrition for what "his folks" had done. I applauded him for that when he did it. It was neither the time nor place nor would it have honored his and Dr. Zacharias' commitment to the Brethren for him to share his grievances. In fact they both specifically promised not to do that when they met with the Brethren prior to the tabernacle meeting. That is in the record.

Dr Mouw is also on record that he personally witnessed the late Walter Martin lie about and attack Mormons -- something Martin did in his anti-Mormon books and lectures for an entire career.  Even reasonable and kind anti-Mormons like Dr Rob Bowman recognize Walter Martin's Satanic behavior because he witnessed it personally.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

You are also right on your astute observation that I have a veneer of anger. Right again. One thing I have never been called by an LDS Christian is an ally. Not in 15 months of faithful attendance and participation in a ward. There have been many ways we have been marginalized, some of them of a political nature within the larger Church community. Those things hurt. I can't and won't go into them here. I would betray too many confidences. Yesterday was Sunday. I wanted to go to church. Neither of us had the heart to be wounded anymore. I believe the Holy Spirit wants us there for a purpose. I don't know what that is. I am probably more frustrated than angry, although I acknowledge it is not easy to discern the difference.

Sometimes I vent here. It is safer. As far as I know there is no one here I know or love. This forum's arrows bite, but they don't make me ache. I have said on several occasions on this forum that I am walking a lonely walk. Your characterization of my words as "completely false," a "narrow interpretation," "astonishing and false," "nonsense," "odd and unaccountable," "false" again at least four times, "a sick view of life,"  and on and on hurt. If it was your purpose to put me down you have succeeded.

When your real purpose in attending LDS services is to sow discord and bear false witness against the Mormons, you should not be surprised at being marginalized.

3 hours ago, Navidad said:

  I didn't include any attacks on you in my posts or replies. I still haven't. I have affirmed your interpretations and have used I statements. I have owned my interpretations, experiences, and of course, my biases as a result of those. I want to learn how to do a better job at interfaith dialogue. One of my challenges is I haven't found a partner yet in the greater body of the Saints to dialogue with (sorry for the prepositional ending). Chip on my shoulder? Maybe. I'd rather describe it as a "bee in my bonnet!" That is much more Mennonite. So, bottom line I have learned from this "conversation." I have to do better to figure out when you all are talking about the rest of humanity in the world, and when you are talking about us non-LDS "so called Christians." Yes, you are also right - no feliz navidad. The walk is too lonely. Next week I turn 70. I am tired and discouraged. Very discouraged.  

I have greatly enjoyed the Mennonites I have met, and did not find them on the attack against me and my faith.  You might try injecting some mutual respect into your approach to the Mormons.  Might be much more satisfying in the long run.  Wish I were a youngster of 70 again.  Enjoy your youth while you can.

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24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, of course, if you attend an LDS ward or branch with an anger problem, the Mormons there may indeed take you to be the enemy.  If you constantly make false accusations against them, naturally they will consider you as not a nice person, and they will not want to spend time arguing with you.  This board is different:  We argue here all the time. ☺️

I do not have an anger problem. No one at our ward treats me like an enemy. They treat us as "less than." I have never made a false accusation against the members of my ward. Your true anti-non-LDS Christian colors are starting to show. I have tried to engage with you with I statements. Now I give up. Now you are the one making false accusations. What a surprise! I despise arguing. That is why I have quit this board on two occasions. 

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

If you really knew Mormons, you would know that our Hymnbook has that same song and that we frequently sing it.  When we do, we do not see it as spiritual warfare against everyone, but more like the same feelings that the Salvation Army has when they sing it.  God cries when he finds you misinterpreting that song as warfare against good people.  I know of no Mormon who sees it that way.  Most Mormons view the song as expressing the missionary spirit, taking the Gospel to all of humanity with kindness in our hearts.  Our missionaries do not go out with the spirit of contention.  How do you interpret that song?

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I know the song is in the LDS hymnbook. That wasn't my point. My point was how some non-LDS Christians misuse and misinterpret that in an anti-Mormon perspective. I don't, nor have I ever said anything about how Mormons interpret it. 

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

These are all false allegations and bespeak a very benighted view of LDS faith and history.  Your purpose is clearly to attack the Mormons in typical anti-Mormon fashion.  You should be ashamed, Navidad.

I was wondering how long it would take before you retreat to the safety and surety of labeling me an anti-Mormon. I am confused, hurt, and a bit lost. In no way am I an anti-Mormon. Methinks you have just proved my point by your resorting to the negative attack. Who should be ashamed? If you deny the historical negativity of Saints against non-Saints, inclusive of stereotyping, then you are in denial. That is a "you" statement.

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Dr Mouw is also on record that he personally witnessed the late Walter Martin lie about and attack Mormons -- something Martin did in his anti-Mormon books and lectures for an entire career.  Even reasonable and kind anti-Mormons like Dr Rob Bowman recognize Walter Martin's Satanic behavior because he witnessed it personally.

Please, I knew Walter Martin. You didn't. As a boy I attended meeting after meeting where he and my father spoke. You cannot educate me about Walter Martin. I recognize from first hand experience in my own home and in many many personal observations what were his flaws, biases, and on other issues, his strengths. Have you read Dr. Mouw on Walter Martin? Probably not. Very interesting read. 

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

 

When your real purpose in attending LDS services is to sow discord and bear false witness against the Mormons, you should not be surprised at being marginalized.

Now this one sends me over the edge. I have never sown discord or borne false witness against the Mormons in my ward. Never. Not ever. Not once. I have been marginalized purely and only for my status as a non-member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Only once in 15 months did I have what even might approach an angry conversation with anyone in our ward. That was in the first week or so. As a non-member, some don't want the bishop to call on me to pray. Others don't want me to sing. Others don't want me to testify, even about the ways I am growing in the ward. What a mean dishonest thing for you to accuse me of (another sentence ending with a preposition). My real purpose is to sow discord and bear false witness? Now who is angry?

24 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I have greatly enjoyed the Mennonites I have met, and did not find them on the attack against me and my faith.  You might try injecting some mutual respect into your approach to the Mormons.  Might be much more satisfying in the long run.  Wish I were a youngster of 70 again.  Enjoy your youth while you can.

I attack neither you or your faith. Unlike most or all Mennonites you have met, I have tried my best to learn about and understand Mormons from first hand experience.  I have great respect for Saints. Like any other Christian group they (you) have strengths and weaknesses. I, as a non-member will never be allowed to voice any of my thoughts about weaknesses without incurring your wrath. Shame on me for trying. If you ask I will freely discuss the weaknesses of the Mennonites, Baptists or any other non-Mormon group with you. Let me, the less than non-member bring up what I have observed about the Saints, read in their histories, etc.  and sooner or later I will be turned into an "anti-Mormon." You all on this forum fight, pick at each other, denigrate and go away friends because you are all part of the club. Woe to anyone who would dare point out what he only claims to be his observations after thirty years of observing Mormons first-hand, up close and personal. Silly me. You have simply proved my point from earlier replies. I am and always will be less than until I join the club! 

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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

When your real purpose in attending LDS services is to sow discord and bear false witness against the Mormons

He said he didn't know what the purpose was for the Holy Spirit to be directing him and his wife to visit with LDS at their meetings.

I think you are reading too much negativity into his words.  I also think it may be likely he is reading too much negativity into his local ward though ignorance about other faiths is not uncommon among our members in my experience and there may be things taken for granted that some members feel superior about.

Whatever the reality, I don't think these accusations of yours about him are useful.

Edited by Calm
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47 minutes ago, Calm said:

He said he didn't know what the purpose was for the Holy Spirit to be directing him and his wife to visit with LDS at their meetings.

I think you are reading too much negativity into his words.  I also think it may be likely he is reading too much negativity into his local ward though ignorance about other faiths is not uncommon among our members in my experience and there may be things taken for granted that some members feel superior about.

Whatever the reality, I don't think these accusations of yours about him are useful.

Hi Calm: I think you are right in that my wife and I may be reading too much negativity from our ward. I am not in any way implying they are trying to run us off, or to consciously and deliberately demean us. That would be both unfair and inaccurate. By in large they have been open, warm, and responsive to us.  I will say this - they are an isolated group. They always have been - that is the nature of the colonies here. They also are to some degree largely LDS royalty. They are so proud of their forefathers and mothers. They are direct descendants of many great and influential LDS leaders. They also come from some of the most conservative of LDS stock. It was their ancestors who came to Mexico to escape persecution for that which made them in some ways Mormon elites of the 1870 and 80's. They are fiercely proud of their heritage and of their church. They hold tightly to being faithful to every word that proceeds from the Brethren. They don't say things that hurt us because we are there. They say them because they have always said them. As I have said many times on this forum, our bishop is a wonderful Godly man, a very genuine soul. There are those who don't think the bishop should be allowing my wife and I to do anything in the ward, except maybe vacuum, which we take our turn doing. They don't mean to be unkind to us; they may or may not simply know what to do with us. I am told, in their isolated situation they have never had a non-member in their midst for as long as we have been. They are used to curious tourists coming through, archaeologists, and the like. But not folks like us. I fully acknowledge my wife and I are hyper-sensitive. It is also a huge adjustment for us. We have never been in a church where we each were not hyper-active and busy in service. So I think we are doing as well as can be expected; as are the members of the ward. I confess that some things are piling up on us, that again are probably not deliberate, but are still hurtful. They send us so many mixed messages; as do we to them; I am sure of that. They have no history for what to do with faithful non-members. We have no history for how to be members who are not expected or allowed to do much of anything; not even tithe. 

We needed to take a break. Maybe they need that too. I have to go and speak in Salt Lake in a few months. I am nervous about that. I am going to get a tour of the back of the organ though. How cool is that? Maybe that is a common thing, but I am excited about being a part of a group (maybe the only non-member) who will get to sit in the choir seats and tour the pipes and workings of the organ. I am going to speak about the apostles in the colonies. That is a privilege, especially since there may indeed be apostles or at least GAs in the meeting. One never knows. Last year I was asked to pray in front of hundreds of church leaders. Now, I am not allowed to pray in my own ward because no one know what the rules are! Ouch! On the one hand I am widely known in the church history circles as the "Mennonite guru of Mexican Colonies history." I get thanked and praised from the very highest levels of the Church History department and then lambasted by some of you. I never know quite what to expect. On the other hand I am nobody. I have the "go away closer" disease,  an illness that many family therapists ascribe in the cases of dysfunctional families.

I vent more here on this forum than anywhere else. You all vent too. Don't you? My how you go after each other. I make the mistake of thinking it is ok now for me to vent too, but then the sad charge of being an "anti-Mormon" is drug out. I don't believe the Saints are perfect; I don't believe they were in the 19th century either. I do believe they brought on some of their own persecution. I guess that is simply blasphemy to the faithful who have grown up with what the famous TED talk calls 'The Single Story." I am sorry I have offended Brother Smith. That was never my intent. I haven't had to apologize on this board for many months now. I am strong enough to do it again. I am sorry to anyone I offended with my comments.  I may have made some dumb accusations since this is a Mormon dialogue group, but I don't think I made any that were false. If I did, I apologize. I am not beyond having my own blind spots! I freely acknowledge that. 

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

He said he didn't know what the purpose was for the Holy Spirit to be directing him and his wife to visit with LDS at their meetings.

I think you are reading too much negativity into his words.  I also think it may be likely he is reading too much negativity into his local ward though ignorance about other faiths is not uncommon among our members in my experience and there may be things taken for granted that some members feel superior about.

Whatever the reality, I don't think these accusations of yours about him are useful.

His own words spoke loud and clear as to who he really was, which is why I admonished him to make a change and get it right.  Visitors or guests must exercise a reasonable degree of proper deportment.  When I attend other religious meetings (which I have done hundreds of times), I make it a policy to behave like a gentleman, and I do not make absurd accusations afterward.  Whenever I comment, as I have several times on this board, I focus on the positive aspects of those meetings I have attended.  And not simply out of good manners.  I actually like and admire the members of other religious groups.  Navidad seems unwilling to at least be fair to his targets.

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2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I do not have an anger problem. No one at our ward treats me like an enemy. They treat us as "less than." I have never made a false accusation against the members of my ward. Your true anti-non-LDS Christian colors are starting to show. I have tried to engage with you with I statements. Now I give up. Now you are the one making false accusations. What a surprise! I despise arguing. That is why I have quit this board on two occasions. 

I think we are saying the exact same thing. I know the song is in the LDS hymnbook. That wasn't my point. My point was how some non-LDS Christians misuse and misinterpret that in an anti-Mormon perspective. I don't, nor have I ever said anything about how Mormons interpret it. 

I was wondering how long it would take before you retreat to the safety and surety of labeling me an anti-Mormon. I am confused, hurt, and a bit lost. In no way am I an anti-Mormon. Methinks you have just proved my point by your resorting to the negative attack. Who should be ashamed? If you deny the historical negativity of Saints against non-Saints, inclusive of stereotyping, then you are in denial. That is a "you" statement.

Your frequent false statements about Mormon doctrine, behavior, and history told me who you really are, Navidad, despite your empty denials.  You have done exactly what I would never do in attending and reporting on other religious groups.

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Please, I knew Walter Martin. You didn't. As a boy I attended meeting after meeting where he and my father spoke. You cannot educate me about Walter Martin. I recognize from first hand experience in my own home and in many many personal observations what were his flaws, biases, and on other issues, his strengths. Have you read Dr. Mouw on Walter Martin? Probably not. Very interesting read. 

Actually, I have heard Dr Mouw speak personally about his encounter with Walter Martin, and he saw Martin as a heartless epitome of evil.  That your father would have anything to do with Martin also speaks volumes about your own deep misconceptions.

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

Now this one sends me over the edge. I have never sown discord or borne false witness against the Mormons in my ward. Never. Not ever. Not once. I have been marginalized purely and only for my status as a non-member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints. Only once in 15 months did I have what even might approach an angry conversation with anyone in our ward. That was in the first week or so. As a non-member, some don't want the bishop to call on me to pray. Others don't want me to sing. Others don't want me to testify, even about the ways I am growing in the ward. What a mean dishonest thing for you to accuse me of (another sentence ending with a preposition). My real purpose is to sow discord and bear false witness? Now who is angry?

Sounds like an irrational persecution complex to me, Navidad.  You bore repeated false witness about the Mormons here on this board.  No wonder some Mormons in the ward did not want to hear you testify.

2 hours ago, Navidad said:

I attack neither you or your faith. Unlike most or all Mennonites you have met, I have tried my best to learn about and understand Mormons from first hand experience.  I have great respect for Saints. Like any other Christian group they (you) have strengths and weaknesses. I, as a non-member will never be allowed to voice any of my thoughts about weaknesses without incurring your wrath. Shame on me for trying. If you ask I will freely discuss the weaknesses of the Mennonites, Baptists or any other non-Mormon group with you. Let me, the less than non-member bring up what I have observed about the Saints, read in their histories, etc.  and sooner or later I will be turned into an "anti-Mormon." You all on this forum fight, pick at each other, denigrate and go away friends because you are all part of the club. Woe to anyone who would dare point out what he only claims to be his observations after thirty years of observing Mormons first-hand, up close and personal. Silly me. You have simply proved my point from earlier replies. I am and always will be less than until I join the club! 

Speaking out of both sides of your mouth is not a policy I recommend when visiting other religions, Navidad.  Instead, restraint, kindness, and mutual respect is called for.  Try it and see whether that improves your experience.  It always works for me, and I never feel marginalized.

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Anti-mormon - alguien que no cree en el Mormonismo.

O esta con nosotros o en contra de nosotros.

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4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Your frequent false statements about Mormon doctrine, behavior, and history told me who you really are, Navidad, despite your empty denials.  You have done exactly what I would never do in attending and reporting on other religious groups.

Actually, I have heard Dr Mouw speak personally about his encounter with Walter Martin, and he saw Martin as a heartless epitome of evil.  That your father would have anything to do with Martin also speaks volumes about your own deep misconceptions.

Sounds like an irrational persecution complex to me, Navidad.  You bore repeated false witness about the Mormons here on this board.  No wonder some Mormons in the ward did not want to hear you testify.

Speaking out of both sides of your mouth is not a policy I recommend when visiting other religions, Navidad.  Instead, restraint, kindness, and mutual respect is called for.  Try it and see whether that improves your experience.  It always works for me, and I never feel marginalized.

My experience on this forum is when a thread is hijacked by a heated and repeated diatribe between two posters others lose interest and no good is the outcome. So I won't continue this back and forth with you. I have apologized; you have chosen to ignore that. You have accused me in numerous threads of false accusations without naming one of them. I doubt we would agree even if you did, so there can be no positive outcome to further back and forth. You have lectured me about restraint, kindness and mutual respect, yet have shown me none. And to top it off you have now slandered my deceased father who I doubt very much you ever met or knew. If you read my comment carefully you will see that I never said the interactions between my father and Walter Martin were positive. I said they were frequent, they were often in our home, and that my father was often on the same conference schedule. My father was very close to Donald Grey Barnhouse a prominent and wonderful evangelical from my native Philadelphia area. Dr. Mouw's well-known comments about Dr. Barnhouse, Walter Martin and the bluebird story occurred close by where I grew up. I was raised on those kinds of stories which invariably demonstrated the strengths and weaknesses of the participants. Men of that era loved to tell stories and use illustrations like the bluebird story in their preaching. Barnhouse was a master at it.  I never heard my father say a positive word about Walter Martin nor a negative word about Mormons. He loved Barnhouse and was greatly influenced by him, even though my dad did not share Dr. Barnhouse's enthusiasm for reformed theology. They shared a great enthusiasm for eschatology. I would tell you how much I resent your comments about my father; but that should be self-evident. I doubt it would make any difference anyway. My sense is you never feel marginalized because feelings are not your forte. Just another observation and what may be taken as another false accusation. I will own that one too. My best to you.  

Edited by Navidad
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On 3/3/2019 at 3:34 PM, Navidad said:

In the mean time, please don't stand idly by when your member friend castigates non-members as if they are all peas in the same pod. They aren't. 

I can’t remember the last time a LDS friend mocked or ridiculed non-members. 

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5 hours ago, Navidad said:

I am told, in their isolated situation they have never had a non-member in their midst for as long as we have been

If they are isolated, there is a good chance they have developed new behaviours or perhaps held on to older ones such that their behaviour isn't typical of a ward...though ward differences can vary greatly even when sharing the same building.  

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17 hours ago, Navidad said:

Our observation after 15 months of faithfulness is that there is none. Is not this a form of exclusion and yes, violence to us that minimizes us as "so-called Christians?" Is not this a form of exclusion and yes, violence to us that minimizes us as "so-called Christians?" The Mormon ward at times seems more like a members-only club. I have never, in my fifty years of ministry seen anything like it. Oh how we wish it (the ward) were a place of safety, of rest, peace, and solace for us.

You should get out more. The perpetual non-member who attended for years with his member wife at a nearby ward where I served as a High Councilman is now the bishop of that ward. My father attended with my member mother for years and served in the Scouting program before he was baptized. He had great respect and good friends in the Church. In my current ward, a non-member husband attended with his convert wife. He was well-liked, fellowshipped, befriended, and visited regularly...and he was a heavy smoker, but no one cared about that nor were they angry that he was never baptized. You could be one of these people, if you wanted to.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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1 hour ago, Exiled said:

Anti-mormon - alguien que no cree en el Mormonismo.

O esta con nosotros o en contra de nosotros.

Wow! Now anti-Mormonism is being defined as one who doesn't believe in Mormonism. I never heard that one before. That sweeps with a pretty broad brush, doesn't it? And now one is either with Mormons or against Mormons, right? Well if that is my forced choice, I am with Mormons and have been so for thirty years now.

I seek very hard to understand them and obviously as with any quest don't always succeed. I have taken a year out of my life to personally engage in every way I know how with Mormons, including on this forum. I have also, during that same time traveled and read as much as I can to better understand the non-member Christian's sometimes toxic reaction to them. There is a shared antagonism that bears examination and understanding. I haven't quite figured it out yet and have occasionally gotten caught up in it. This summer I will traveling from Mexico City to Boston, to Portland, Claremont, and SLC to continue my journey. This forum is a microcosm of intra-Mormon dialogue. I learn much from you all. There is almost no interfaith dialogue here that is of a positive nature. I regret when I get caught up and contribute to that in a negative way. 

Yes, I have formed opinions during that time of a very complex faith and people who are both warm and affirming, and not always consistent in their appraisal of "the other." As is true of me, there are often mixed messages. It is my measured experience that the force is strong with them. Sometimes that force is used for and sometimes against. My wife and I love the folks in our ward. If that were not true, they would not have the ability to hurt us. As with any experience of trying to get to know someone on a close, personal, and intimate basis, especially in an isolated and rural area, there are ups and downs in what is, at its heart a cross-cultural exploration. I thank our Heavenly Father for the ups and take responsibility for my part in the downs. 

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29 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I can’t remember the last time a LDS friend mocked or ridiculed non-members. 

I appreciate that. For me it was Sunday a week ago. Or come to think of it, I think it was about an hour ago. 

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