Veganism

[Gray]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

Agreed, though a vegan would argue that eggs and cheese don't come from animal death, but rather, animal torture due to the squalid conditions of factory farms that produce much of the dairy that we consume.

Study after study confirms that a diet that is primarily plant-based leads to longer lifespans and less health issues such as heart disease, cancer, etc. 

True, but that can be addressed by buying eggs and dairy products from cruelty-free sources.

[Amulek]

13 hours ago, CMZ said:

I 100% get that we should be kind to animals and I don't like animals being kept in squalid, cramped conditions [...]

Speaking of squalid, cramped conditions, you know they literally shove plants underneath the ground and cover them with feces, right? I don't care how bad animals think they've got it - plants get it 100 times worse. It's totally barbaric. Sorry, but I'm with this guy.

 

[CMZ]

3 hours ago, CV75 said:

I use plant-derived (vegan) designer protein as part of my diet to reduce the dairy and meat sources.

So dairy is bad?

[CMZ]

1 hour ago, Walden said:

Agreed, though a vegan would argue that eggs and cheese don't come from animal death, but rather, animal torture due to the squalid conditions of factory farms that produce much of the dairy that we consume.

 

But what if the eggs and cheese come from farms that are not like that?

[The Nehor]

2 minutes ago, CMZ said:

But what if the eggs and cheese come from farms that are not like that?

Then they cost more.

[CMZ]

5 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Then they cost more.

Possibly. But might pay more for quality. I'm hoping not all dietary choices are based on what food is the cheapest.

[CV75]

8 minutes ago, CMZ said:

So dairy is bad?

No, I love dairy (it still might be "bad," but so am I!). As an athletic person I just want to have more variety in my protein sources.

[The Nehor]

1 minute ago, CMZ said:

Possibly. But might pay more for quality. I'm hoping not all dietary choices are based on what food is the cheapest.

I think the idea is that you should not rely entirely on market forces to eliminate cruelty.

Like I said before though eliminating subsidies on ranching and food production generally would be a good start.

[CMZ]

7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I think the idea is that you should not rely entirely on market forces to eliminate cruelty.

Like I said before though eliminating subsidies on ranching and food production generally would be a good start.

Yeah, there's a number of ways things could be fixed. It's funny how I am seeing articles saying, "Grow your own food! It's better in so many ways." Yet, when President Kimball said it people thought it was pointless. "Why bother? We have a bunch of companies already making canned food for us."

[Anijen]

Micheal Foods is the biggest source of eggs in the US. Their head veterinarian (now retired, also a patriarch in the Church) told me that organic is way more probable to cause sickness. He had to shower before entering each chicken area. He told me he once had to shower eleven times while at work. he was asked by President Bush (IIRC) to head up the Valdez Oil spill on the effect of the birdlife (he declined). Sure the grocery store chickens are on 18 hour days to make them lay more often, but each egg is from the healthiest chickens out there.

[Bernard Gui]

17 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Possibly. But might pay more for quality. I'm hoping not all dietary choices are based on what food is the cheapest.

Very few people in the world enjoy that luxury.

[CMZ]

2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Very few people in the world enjoy that luxury.

Okay, then we should all do nothing and leave people with cheap, nutrient-poor food.

[Bernard Gui]

9 minutes ago, CMZ said:

Yeah, there's a number of ways things could be fixed. It's funny how I am seeing articles saying, "Grow your own food! It's better in so many ways." Yet, when President Kimball said it people thought it was pointless. "Why bother? We have a bunch of companies already making canned food for us."

When you grow your own food you discover the reasons for fungicides, pesticides, scarecrows, grocery stores, and large farms that can grow more than one short row of spinach.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Bernard Gui]

Just now, CMZ said:

Okay, then we should all do nothing and leave people with cheap, nutrient-poor food.

Not my point at all. 

[The Mean Farmer]

Bit off topic...sorry!

 

I taught the W.O.W to a seminary class last week and had explained that that it was given to a specific group of people, in a specific place, at a specific time.   And it has changed over time.

After discussing alcohol, tobacco, coffee/tea, meat, grains,  then barley (that was fun); I asked them to think what would be 'IN' or 'OUT' if Pres. Nelson revamped the W.O.W in conference in April.

They brought up things that they thought were possible candidates for our society here in the midwest USA.

 

Interestingly the item(s) that are closest to being outlawed in their minds would be ultra processed and other 'Trash Food'.

While they wouldn't think that things like McDonald's, frozen burritos, and Ice Cream parlors would be strictly outlawed, they could see them being warned against and somewhat incorporated (in part) into the WOW n 40 years.  

Meaning that the largest danger to our society in terms of things we intake into our bodies is the food that they agree that they would rather eat more than any other.  Is actually the most readily available, and most costly per calorie. 

 

I thought it was interesting.  

 

I could do without McDonalds.  I have for nearly 20 years now. 

But cheap tacos?   I may have an Achilles heel there!

 

 

 

[CMZ]

19 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Micheal Foods is the biggest source of eggs in the US. Their head veterinarian (now retired, also a patriarch in the Church) told me that organic is way more probable to cause sickness. He had to shower before entering each chicken area. He told me he once had to shower eleven times while at work. he was asked by President Bush (IIRC) to head up the Valdez Oil spill on the effect of the birdlife (he declined). Sure the grocery store chickens are on 18 hour days to make them lay more often, but each egg is from the healthiest chickens out there.

Weird. So factory farming made everything better?

[CMZ]

13 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

When you grow your own food you discover the reasons for fungicides, pesticides, scarecrows, grocery stores, and large farms that can grow more than one short row of spinach.

Okay, so we shouldn't grow our own food but let large factory farms do it?

[CMZ]

2 minutes ago, The Mean Farmer said:

But cheap tacos?   I may have an Achilles heel there!

Depends on what's in the tacos.

[RevTestament]

2 hours ago, Walden said:

Agreed, though a vegan would argue that eggs and cheese don't come from animal death, but rather, animal torture due to the squalid conditions of factory farms that produce much of the dairy that we consume.

Study after study confirms that a diet that is primarily plant-based leads to longer lifespans and less health issues such as heart disease, cancer, etc. 

Maybe. The longest lived people do eat meat products. Long-lived mountain people are typically herdsman who eat a lot of yogurt, and some meat. Okinawans are known for their long life spans, and eat a good bit of seafood. I don't think there is any study which shows that vegetarians or vegans have the longest life spans - they are longer lived than those who eat the SAD with lots of meat and prepared foods, snacks, etc.

I believe the main problem with the Americans are lots of processed foods, drinks and other simple carbs, fried foods with vegetable oils, preservatives, and other additives, etc. I used to buy into the saturated fat claim, but the international data doesn't support that. The main problem is lots of simple carbs and sweets - one can still do that and be vegan - a vegan can be fat and have heart disease. Potato chips and corn chips are vegan - just sayin. 

I have no plans to give up cheese, yogurt, eggs, seafood, and meat. I just don't typically eat meat more than in one helping per day. No high blood pressure yet.... There is lots of data to show that a sugarless diet (which I don't follow) leads to a ketonic based  metabolism which is healthier than a glucose based metabolism. Less diabetes, obesity, more energy, etc. Don't get me wrong. I am not advocating a high animal meat/fat diet, but I also don't believe that strict vegan has been shown to lead to the longest life spans.

[Bernard Gui]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

Okay, so we shouldn't grow our own food but let large factory farms do it?

Not my point at all. When you plant your garden, you learn what God meant when he told Adam about thorns and thistles and sweat.

We had a nice garden in Tacoma, then a few years later we discovered we were right on the edge of the arsenic poisoning zone from the defunct Asarco smelter. 

I also learned that beer is a good deterrent for slugs. Plus, it's a merciful death.....they die happy. 

There was no way our family of 7 could survive only on the food we raised in the garden.

Edited February 25, 2019 by Bernard Gui

[Anijen]

1 hour ago, CMZ said:

Weird. So factory farming made everything better?

I didn't say that. I know they are very regulated, were free range are not. I know Dr. Duttan knew the chickens and eggs coming from places such as Michaels was healthier than organic free range ones..

[Calm]

3 hours ago, Amulek said:

Speaking of squalid, cramped conditions, you know they literally shove plants underneath the ground and cover them with feces, right? I don't care how bad animals think they've got it - plants get it 100 times worse. It's totally barbaric. Sorry, but I'm with this guy.

 

 

[BlueDreams]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

Maybe. The longest lived people do eat meat products. Long-lived mountain people are typically herdsman who eat a lot of yogurt, and some meat. Okinawans are known for their long life spans, and eat a good bit of seafood. I don't think there is any study which shows that vegetarians or vegans have the longest life spans - they are longer lived than those who eat the SAD with lots of meat and prepared foods, snacks, etc.

This isn't exactly accurate. I think you're describing blue zones....ie the longest lived populations (one of which is 7th day adventists in california....they're largely vegetarian). Though an okinawan's traditional diet does include fish, pork, eggs, and dairy, it's far far less than the average western/American diet. Each category makes up 1% of their food....it's basically a condiment for them.   All blue zone diets are extreme fruits, veg, and beans heavy (ie .they're largely plant-based diets SEe here).  Don't have time to say more than this. I do agree that we would be better off if we laid off of highly processed foods. 

 

With luv,

BD

[RevTestament]

22 minutes ago, BlueDreams said:

This isn't exactly accurate. I think you're describing blue zones....ie the longest lived populations (one of which is 7th day adventists in california....they're largely vegetarian). Though an okinawan's traditional diet does include fish, pork, eggs, and dairy, it's far far less than the average western/American diet. Each category makes up 1% of their food....it's basically a condiment for them.   All blue zone diets are extreme fruits, veg, and beans heavy (ie .they're largely plant-based diets SEe here).  Don't have time to say more than this. I do agree that we would be better off if we laid off of highly processed foods. 

 

With luv,

BD

It is accurate. Call them what you will - the fact remains that the longest lived people are not strict vegans, and I discount the description that fish is 1% of the average Okinawan's diet. They typically eat fish 3 times per week on average. That is more than 1% of their diet. They also eat squid and octopus. I occasionally eat shrimp. Unfortunately fish is expensive where I live, but I do eat it occasionally. You will note that their men are not as long lived - this may be attributable to the large amounts of soy. 

In other long lived populations other animal products such as yogurt are important. Again my claim is that there is no study showing that strict vegans are the longest lived people. You can claim I am inaccurate when you show such a study. I have no problem with the position that a plant-based diet is the healthiest diet, and I think the longest lived populations DO show that - which supports the word of wisdom. I also believe that I do follow my belief in this regard - that is I eat a plant based diet with 6-8 ozs of dairy (yogurt/cheese) per day and 6-10 oz of meat/poultry/seafood per day. I am just naughty and like some sweets - esp chocolate. I would say 75% - 85% of my daily diet is plant based - that includes plant based sugar.   Cheers.

 

[Bernard Gui]

3 hours ago, RevTestament said:

It is accurate. Call them what you will - the fact remains that the longest lived people are not strict vegans, and I discount the description that fish is 1% of the average Okinawan's diet. They typically eat fish 3 times per week on average. That is more than 1% of their diet. They also eat squid and octopus. I occasionally eat shrimp. Unfortunately fish is expensive where I live, but I do eat it occasionally. You will note that their men are not as long lived - this may be attributable to the large amounts of soy. 

In other long lived populations other animal products such as yogurt are important. Again my claim is that there is no study showing that strict vegans are the longest lived people. You can claim I am inaccurate when you show such a study. I have no problem with the position that a plant-based diet is the healthiest diet, and I think the longest lived populations DO show that - which supports the word of wisdom. I also believe that I do follow my belief in this regard - that is I eat a plant based diet with 6-8 ozs of dairy (yogurt/cheese) per day and 6-10 oz of meat/poultry/seafood per day. I am just naughty and like some sweets - esp chocolate. I would say 75% - 85% of my daily diet is plant based - that includes plant based sugar.   Cheers.

 

Chocolate is plant based, so endulge without shame or fear.