Bill Reel Vs. Jim Bennett

[HappyJackWagon]

For those of you who love to hate Bill Reel, get your knives out.

But for those of you who love to listen to podcasts, you should listen to Bill's new 6 part series where he has a long and winding interview with Jim Bennett and they discuss virtually every hard Mormon issue under the sun. Seriously, they cover a ton of ground.

Jim did an in depth response to the CES letter (https://canonizer.com/files/reply.pdf)  and gives a solid response from the "faithful" side as Bill plays his usual role as devil's advocate. It's interesting that both Jim and Bill offer some concessions on their side when the other makes good points. Frankly, that's the way discussions should be. No person is ever 100% right and seldom is a person 100% wrong  

In any case, if podcasts are your thing you should definitely check it out. There is so much content that it's hard to just choose one area to discuss so I'll just throw out this question instead.

Is it possible for a faithful member to confess that there are legitimate problems in Mormon History and doctrine, OR does that person immediately become unfaithful when they legitimize errors of the church and it's leaders?

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2019/02/jim-bennett-and-bill-reel-and-the-issues-of-the-ces-letter-part-1/

 

 

Edited February 22, 2019 by HappyJackWagon

[ALarson]

14 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

For those of you who love to hate Bill Reel, get your knives out.

But for those of you who love to listen to podcasts, you should listen to Bill's new 6 part series where he has a long and winding interview with Jim Bennett and they discuss virtually every hard Mormon issue under the sun. Seriously, they cover a ton of ground.

Jim did an in depth response to the CES letter (https://canonizer.com/files/reply.pdf)  and gives a solid response from the "faithful" side as Bill plays his usual role as devil's advocate. It's interesting that both Jim and Bill offer some concessions on their side when the other makes good points. Frankly, that's the way discussions should be. No person is ever 100% right and seldom is a person 100% wrong  

In any case, if podcasts are your thing you should definitely check it out. There is so much content that it's hard to just choose one area to discuss so I'll just throw out this question instead.

I was just reading about this series this morning!  I have not listened to any of the podcasts done by Bill Reel, but I think I am going to make time to listen to this one as it sounds excellent.  From what I read, it's very respectfully done (from both sides) and each one admits that the other's point of view or beliefs or proofs have legitimacy to them.  Glad you posted this.  Have you listened to all 6 parts?

Quote

 

Is it possible for a faithful member to confess that there are legitimate problems in Mormon History and doctrine, OR does that person immediately become unfaithful when they legitimize errors of the church and it's leaders?

https://mormondiscussionpodcast.org/2019/02/jim-bennett-and-bill-reel-and-the-issues-of-the-ces-letter-part-1/

 

Of course it's possible and more and more members are finding themselves struggling with this same question.  Some are able to work through the details they are learning regarding Mormon History and doctrine and remain active and others are leaving over them.  It's a very personal journey.  Neither side should be judged or criticized, IMO.

[DBMormon]

One listener responded

"The reason I think it historic is because of what others are discovering as they listen.
Over the course of 12-hours, Bill Reel gets Jim Bennett to ultimately concede on every important issue.
Amazing as it may sound, Bill gets Jim Bennett to be much more critical of the church than Bill!
Bill manages this by being courteous, fair, and by conceding issues to Jim at the outset.
In response, Jim also concedes issues to Bill.
But the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

Personally, I think Jim did as well as anyone could.  I think in real time long form conversation, Mormonism simply doesn't fair well.  I see this interview as re-inforcing to apologists not to step into this forum as it almost assuredly won't end well.  Jim was kind and he is informed and I think he did as well as anyone could do and in many instances I think he makes a space for belief where critics say there is none.  The trouble is when you take in the whole of Mormonism collectively.  Mormonism collectively in real time long form conversation does not fare well.  That is no fault of Jim's and I am deeply proud of this project and of Jim's part in it.  He should be applauded. 

[HappyJackWagon]

3 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

One listener responded

"The reason I think it historic is because of what others are discovering as they listen.
Over the course of 12-hours, Bill Reel gets Jim Bennett to ultimately concede on every important issue.
Amazing as it may sound, Bill gets Jim Bennett to be much more critical of the church than Bill!
Bill manages this by being courteous, fair, and by conceding issues to Jim at the outset.
In response, Jim also concedes issues to Bill.
But the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

Personally, I think Jim did as well as anyone could.  I think in real time long form conversation, Mormonism simply doesn't fair well.  I see this interview as re-inforcing to apologists not to step into this forum as it almost assuredly won't end well.  Jim was kind and he is informed and I think he did as well as anyone could do and in many instances I think he makes a space for belief where critics say there is none.  The trouble is when you take in the whole of Mormonism collectively.  Mormonism collectively in real time long form conversation does not fare well.  That is no fault of Jim's and I am deeply proud of this project and of Jim's part in it.  He should be applauded. 

Thanks for weighing in.

What would you say are the 2 biggest concessions Jim made? What were the 2 biggest you felt you made?

[Tacenda]

Has it been mentioned that Jim's father is Bob Bennett? Former senator of Utah?

[ALarson]

8 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

One listener responded

"The reason I think it historic is because of what others are discovering as they listen.
Over the course of 12-hours, Bill Reel gets Jim Bennett to ultimately concede on every important issue.
Amazing as it may sound, Bill gets Jim Bennett to be much more critical of the church than Bill!
Bill manages this by being courteous, fair, and by conceding issues to Jim at the outset.
In response, Jim also concedes issues to Bill.
But the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

Personally, I think Jim did as well as anyone could.  I think in real time long form conversation, Mormonism simply doesn't fair well.  I see this interview as re-inforcing to apologists not to step into this forum as it almost assuredly won't end well.  Jim was kind and he is informed and I think he did as well as anyone could do and in many instances I think he makes a space for belief where critics say there is none.  The trouble is when you take in the whole of Mormonism collectively.  Mormonism collectively in real time long form conversation does not fare well.  That is no fault of Jim's and I am deeply proud of this project and of Jim's part in it.  He should be applauded. 

Since I can't give you a rep point, I'll just quote you and say thanks for adding this.  I am definitely going to listen to these podcasts as they sound fascinating (and I am not one to listen to podcasts!).

[Steve J]

5 hours ago, DBMormon said:

One listener responded

"The reason I think it historic is because of what others are discovering as they listen.
Over the course of 12-hours, Bill Reel gets Jim Bennett to ultimately concede on every important issue.
Amazing as it may sound, Bill gets Jim Bennett to be much more critical of the church than Bill!
Bill manages this by being courteous, fair, and by conceding issues to Jim at the outset.
In response, Jim also concedes issues to Bill.
But the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

Personally, I think Jim did as well as anyone could.  I think in real time long form conversation, Mormonism simply doesn't fair well.  I see this interview as re-inforcing to apologists not to step into this forum as it almost assuredly won't end well.  Jim was kind and he is informed and I think he did as well as anyone could do and in many instances I think he makes a space for belief where critics say there is none.  The trouble is when you take in the whole of Mormonism collectively.  Mormonism collectively in real time long form conversation does not fare well.  That is no fault of Jim's and I am deeply proud of this project and of Jim's part in it.  He should be applauded. 

Who was that listener? A random listener?

Edited February 23, 2019 by Steve J

[DBMormon]

2 minutes ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Thanks for weighing in.

What would you say are the 2 biggest concessions Jim made? What were the 2 biggest you felt you made?

* as an outside observer the top 15 men of the Church give no impression of being anything more than 15 older men behind the times and making serious mistakes
* They are completely wrong on the LGBT issue
* He wouldn't let his daughter work in the Smith Home knowing what he does
* The book of Abraham in a vacuum is deeply in favor of the critics conclusion
* priesthood blessing to an outside observer have no more power to heal than the healing rituals of any other system
* Joseph lacked integrity and fidelity with Emma
* The Church teaches us to harm others at times (prop 8, miracle of forgiveness, LGBT policies)
And there are many others but this is a start

 

[DBMormon]

2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Has it been mentioned that Jim's father is Bob Bennett? Former senator of Utah?

yeah we hit on that in the beginning and talk about how his father's work had a ton of influence on me

[DBMormon]

Just now, Steve J said:

Who was that listener? An unbiased observer?

is anyone unbiased? haaaa

[Steve J]

As another listener responded -

 

"We have some wannabe Don King hype man acting like Bill Reel is somebody that we should be impressed with??? Every time I listen to him, the more unimpressed I am" 

[Steve J]

Just now, DBMormon said:

is anyone unbiased? haaaa

Who was this listener? I didn't see this post on any of the 6 parts on mormondiscussionpodcast page

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, Steve J said:

As another listener responded -

 

"We have some wannabe Don King hype man acting like Bill Reel is somebody that we should be impressed with??? Every time I listen to him, the more unimpressed I am" 

Please don't make this personal against Bill (personal insults or attacks).  Have you listened to the podcasts?  Any specific comments about them?

Edited February 22, 2019 by ALarson

[DBMormon]

1 minute ago, ALarson said:

Please don't make this personal against Bill (personal insults or attacks).  Have you listened to the podcasts?  Any specific comments about them?

ad hominem is all that is left when your argument is without substance.

[Tacenda]

6 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

yeah we hit on that in the beginning and talk about how his father's work had a ton of influence on me

I listened to the 1st one on and off. I just wondered if it was mentioned on the thread here. Wow Bill, your website has enough podcasts to keep a girl busy and her husband. 

[stemelbow]

6 minutes ago, Steve J said:

Who was this listener? I didn't see this post on any of the 6 parts on mormondiscussionpodcast page

Radiofreemormon.  Said it on another discussion board.  I saw the comment, but apparently they won't allow us to link it here.  

[Steve J]

22 hours ago, ALarson said:

Please don't make this personal against Bill (personal insults or attacks).  Have you listened to the podcasts?  Any specific comments about them?

It wasn't personal.. and no "ad hominem is all that is left when your argument is without substance." although I know you believe any believer is a dupe whose arguments are without substance.

By posting that comment I was simply pointing out how ridiculous and disingenuous it is for him to provide that quote and label it is as "a listener" when it was his broadcast buddy posting it on another certain discussion board looking to self-congratulate themselves 

Edited February 23, 2019 by Steve J

[DBMormon]

Just now, Steve J said:

It wasn't personal.. and no "ad hominem is all that is left when your argument is without substance." although I know you believe you are the smartest person in Mormonism and any believer is a dupe whose arguments are without substance.

By posting that comment I was simply pointing out how ridiculous and disingenuous it is for him to provide that quote and label it is as "a listener" when it was his broadcast buddy posting it on another certain discussion board looking to self-congratulate themselves 

CFR for where I think I am the smartest.  I actually think Radio Free Mormon far smarter than me and more knowledgeable.

[Steve J]

3 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

CFR for where I think I am the smartest.  I actually think Radio Free Mormon far smarter than me and more knowledgeable.

Well, isn't that a nice compliment to give to someone who just stated that  " I think it historic is because of what others are discovering as they listen. Over the course of 12-hours, Bill Reel gets Jim Bennett to ultimately concede on every important issue....  But the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!""

I CFR your total "online" persona (bc I don't know you personally)

Edited February 22, 2019 by Steve J

[ALarson]

4 minutes ago, Steve J said:

It wasn't personal..

Sure it was.

4 minutes ago, Steve J said:

By posting that comment I was simply pointing out how ridiculous and disingenuous it is for him to provide that quote and label it is as "a listener"

Are you claiming that the person who posted that comment didn't listen to the podcasts?  

Edited February 22, 2019 by ALarson

[ALarson]

2 minutes ago, Steve J said:

Well, isn't that a nice compliment to give to someone who just stated that you  "ut the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars.
It is really quite the experience to hear.
I kept having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!""

I CFR your total "online" persona (bc I don't know you personally)

Maybe listen to the podcasts if you want to comment and stay on topic.  If you just want to come here and insult Bill, start a new thread.  You're making this personal.

Edited February 22, 2019 by ALarson

[Steve J]

9 minutes ago, ALarson said:

Sure it was.

Are you claiming that the person who posted that comment didn't listen to the podcasts?  

No, but you and I know that wasn't the issue. I also don't say to my wife, "a man called me this morning" when it was my brother.  

 

And the comment was personal, but I put it down to make the point about how disingenuous his labeling the person as "a listener" was so I copied and pasted a comment from someone with a negative view on Mr. Reel as a Mormon podcaster.  

Edited February 22, 2019 by Steve J

[ALarson]

26 minutes ago, DBMormon said:

* as an outside observer the top 15 men of the Church give no impression of being anything more than 15 older men behind the times and making serious mistakes
* They are completely wrong on the LGBT issue
* He wouldn't let his daughter work in the Smith Home knowing what he does
* The book of Abraham in a vacuum is deeply in favor of the critics conclusion
* priesthood blessing to an outside observer have no more power to heal than the healing rituals of any other system
* Joseph lacked integrity and fidelity with Emma
* The Church teaches us to harm others at times (prop 8, miracle of forgiveness, LGBT policies)
And there are many others but this is a start

 

Wow, interesting.  I can relate to all of those listed above (and agree with his concessions).  How does he continue working as a apologist?

I'm honestly not at all familiar with him, so I know I need to do some research on him (and also listen to these podcasts....).

[Steve J]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Maybe listen to the podcasts if you want to comment and stay on topic.  If you just want to come here and insult Bill, start a new thread.  You're making this personal.

I did listen to the podcast. And as "a listener"

1. It was not "historic"

2. It was not some historic destruction where "the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim. it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars." 
3. And it was not "really quite the experience to hear.
4. I did not keep " having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

5. All material covered was stuff I already had learned or been exposed to.

6. It was an interesting conversation between two knowledgeable people, but not experts, on controversial/difficult topics on Mormonism.  It also shed light on the different paradigms that the two men hold on how they look at divinity. 

Edited February 22, 2019 by Steve J

[ALarson]

5 minutes ago, Steve J said:

I did listen to the podcast. And as "a listener"

1. It was not "historic"

2. It was not some historic destruction where "the issues Jim ends up conceding to Bill are much more important than the issues Bill concedes to Jim.
it is like Bill is giving Jim a dime and in return, Jim gives Bill a million dollars." 
3. And it was not "really quite the experience to hear.
4. I did not keep " having to pick my jaw up off the ground, saying, "I can't believe Jim Bennett just agreed with Bill on that!"

5. It was an interesting conversation between two knowledgeable people, but not experts, on controversial/difficult topics on Mormonism.  It also shed light on the different paradigms that two men hold on how they look at divinity. 

Any specific examples?

You certainly are entitled to your opinion regarding these podcasts.  This is a discussion forum where they can be shared (and discussed).  It's just best to keep the personal insults and attacks out of the conversation (and against board rules too!).

Edited February 22, 2019 by ALarson