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President Nelson and Change

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18 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

To run-of-the-mill members, this is an odd statement. I believe I am receiving inspiration/revelation. In fact, I actually know that I am. Why on earth would it be any different for an apostle?

Dang. Way to pull offense out of a compliment. Well done.

We're discussing Pres. Nelson's mindset and philosophy in leading and I am affirming that he believes he is receiving revelation and not just throwing out the "revelation" lingo to try to convince others. Seriously, why are acting offended by this. Thin skin much?

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4 hours ago, HappyJackWagon said:

Seriously, why are acting offended by this. Thin skin much?

I think you may be projecting. I wasn't offended by it. Just intrigued and a bit puzzled. :unknw:

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On 2/20/2019 at 4:42 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

To run-of-the-mill members, this is an odd statement. I believe I am receiving inspiration/revelation. In fact, I actually know that I am. Why on earth would it be any different for an apostle?

We’ve noted this before. It seems odd to disbelieve president Nelson is receiving revelation when I am. I’m nobody. With little responsibility in the Church

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12 hours ago, Rivers said:

And it was Russel M. Nelson that saved Pres. Kimball’s life.

 

12 hours ago, Rivers said:

And it was Russel M. Nelson that saved Pres. Kimball’s life.

By revelation :)

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On 2/18/2019 at 2:21 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

I've mentioned on this forum about half a dozen times or so how Elder Bednar visited us four or five years ago and told us that massive changes were coming that would leave the Church unrecognisable in culture and structure. Whatever 'it' is, the apostles seem to have known for some years that it was coming.

Edit: I'm at work and don't have my notes in front of me, so I found a post from when I did: We were told that 'the Lord is constructing a Church that will be able to fulfil its divine global mandate and that it would be "unrecognisable" in everything but doctrine before He's finished'. He also told us that the Lord had just finished laying the foundation of the Restoration, and that it was time to build the proper structure on top. He also mentioned his fear that it would be American Saints who would most struggle with coming changes since many of them are more attached to the culture than to the doctrine.

FWIMBW, I remember reading a blog post by someone in America reporting very similar language at least a couple of years earlier as well, but I couldn't prove it.

I'm in America (pretty unique of me, huh?) and was at a small-ish meeting with Elder Bednar in 2007 and he talked about how... well, I don't remember the exact wording, but the gist of it was, "If your experience with the Church is primarily through the culture that has been built up around the Church and you think that the people in Africa who are actually living the gospel are backwards people who don't get it like you do, then you might be in for a shock."

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On 2/19/2019 at 3:03 PM, stemelbow said:

These changes, aside from dropping the nickname, I imagine, have been considered for years.

There have been numerous talks from different general authorities saying we really need to tone down usage of the old nickname. President Nelson, through revelation, just got more firm about it. But conceptually it wasn't a new idea.

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On 2/20/2019 at 2:01 PM, carbon dioxide said:

I believe this to be the case as well.  My former bishop who works for the Church and has some close contracts with the apostles gave our Elders quorum some information he received that this is the case.  But I am not to inclined to post it here as I don't know if I should.  But suffice to say if correct he is getting more than we realize.

There have been many quotes in the last year talking about the revelation President Nelson is receiving. And, yes, it could be that there are some that should not be shared on the Internet. At my recent stake conference the visiting Area Seventy talked about having been on a recent assignment with Elder Neil L. Andersen and said that Elder Andersen was emphasizing strongly how the content for the recent temple changes was received by revelation to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

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I believe revelation has always been in the Church, but that in the last year or so that we have entered a new season of revelation and even more willingness from the prophet, apostles and others to talk about it. Many of the changes in the last year are almost entirely administrative and similar changes could be done in organizations where no influence from the Spirit is involved at all. Saying that missionaries can Skype home more or that women missionaries can wear pants now or that we should finally really and truly stop using "Mormon" as a nickname, and so forth and so on, did have revelation and inspiration behind them but are still kind of humdrum. Announcing more new temples, including in unexpected areas, is a wonderful thing, but any organization could say they are going to build new buildings. None of those things reveal any new doctrinal knowledge or understanding. But President Nelson did say if we drop the nickname and use the actual name of the Church that more things will come. Maybe then we will get things like new revelations added to The Doctrine and Covenants.

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6 hours ago, CMZ said:

...said that Elder Andersen was emphasizing strongly how the content for the recent temple changes was received by revelation to the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve Apostles.

 

5 hours ago, CMZ said:

I believe revelation has always been in the Church, but that in the last year or so that we have entered a new season of revelation and even more willingness from the prophet, apostles and others to talk about it. 

All this depends on how revelations are defined.  The definition of a revelation has been vastly widened.

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3 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

All this depends on how revelations are defined.  The definition of a revelation has been vastly widened.

I think it’s the same it always has been

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22 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

I think it’s the same it always has been

I know you do.  Most people do.  Most people think nothing important has really changed, nothing has been lost, constant forward upward continuing revelations.

I don't, even if I'm alone.

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On 2/19/2019 at 1:09 AM, cinepro said:

We've talked a lot about the changes President Nelson has made to the Church in the past year, but as I've thought about the recent changes to the missionary communication policy, I feel that there may be something that both the critics and TBMs are overlooking.

Obviously, each change brings a flood of Facebook memes from believers about the latest "revelation", attributing the change to divine intervention.  Conversely, critics immediately write them off as some combination of obvious, lacking, superfluous. 

But both groups failed to see something that perhaps will be obvious in hindsight:

President Nelson is quite possible the first President of the Church in the last 100 years who is an actual "change agent."  Meaning, President Nelson is the first leader we've had that sees his role as one of change, not loyalty to the past and being chained down by policy and tradition.

And why is this?  Because he is the first General Authority that comes from a culture where change was required and respected, and where he excelled at being innovative.  Specifically, his experience as a cutting-edge (pun intended) heart surgeon, where he was instrumental in developing new procedures that revolutionized that area of medicine.

images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTq0Pht4ybGj7lGO5FF0HY

While I consider previous Prophets to be good and inspired men, they were all brought up in the Church bureaucracy in such a way that they most likely saw themselves as loyal stewards of the past.

President Monson - Worked for Deseret News, the Church Press, called as Apostle at 36.

President Hinckley - Seminary teacher, Sunday School board, various church committees.

President Hunter - Lawyer.  While I have great respect for lawyers, they are trained to honor precedence and argue for their position.  It is not a profession that fosters "change" thinking.

President Benson - Farmer, government worker.

President Kimball - Insurance broker.

and so on...

So my theory is that President Nelson hasn't approached his office as one who has been called to preserve the traditions and policies of the Church (and not step on the toes of those who came before him).

Instead, he is approaching it like an innovative surgeon.  If the Church is a "body", and it is imperfect, then Nelson is going to do what is most needed and effective to help it get better.  He'll do the least necessary, but he's not afraid to use a scalpel and go in and make changes.  And it doesn't matter how precious a policy or tradition was to those who came before him.

The odd thing is, if I'm right, how no one saw it coming.  Both critics and Church members get so hyper-focused in what they want to see, no one said "Hey, this guy comes from a very different culture and has accomplished very different kinds of things, so this could be a very different kind of Presidency..." 

And sadly, I don't know that anyone else in the immediate line of succession has any indication of being this kind of leader. 

I'm a little more jaded than you are.  I see the changes as a bunch of shrewd businessman doing what it takes to survive in a rapidly changing environment.  When you are losing customers the business model has to change or the business will die.  

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6 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I don't, even if I'm alone.

You can come hang with the rest of us if it ever gets too lonely!

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16 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

I know you do.  Most people do.  Most people think nothing important has really changed, nothing has been lost, constant forward upward continuing revelations.

I don't, even if I'm alone.

Maybe you can become the prophet?

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20 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

 

All this depends on how revelations are defined.  The definition of a revelation has been vastly widened.

Widened to what? Them making stuff up?

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has anyone else's intermediate hymn been taken out? we had two speakers and they just spoke one after another

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12 minutes ago, Duncan said:

has anyone else's intermediate hymn been taken out? we had two speakers and they just spoke one after another

No, we have the intermediate hymn still.  We had 4 speakers today!  Generally, we still have 3.  We did lose the final hymn today because we were late starting,  waiting for our bishop to finish a meeting!

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23 minutes ago, sheilauk said:

No, we have the intermediate hymn still.  We had 4 speakers today!  Generally, we still have 3.  We did lose the final hymn today because we were late starting,  waiting for our bishop to finish a meeting!

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?????????????? as a fellow member of the commonwealth, that's interesting! we had a kid come home form his mission in Portugal and he gave him homecoming talk, not to be rude but oddest mission homecoming i've ever heard! I don't know that i've heard of 4 speakers before!

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2 hours ago, Duncan said:

whaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaat?????????????? as a fellow member of the commonwealth, that's interesting! we had a kid come home form his mission in Portugal and he gave him homecoming talk, not to be rude but oddest mission homecoming i've ever heard! I don't know that i've heard of 4 speakers before!

☺  they were all about 10 minutes long.  It's pretty regular that we squeeze in a 4th speaker or testimony.   We have a small number of attendees so the sacrament doesn't take that long most weeks and our members are diffident speakers so keep their talks short!

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Before we moved back down from Canada in 2003, I remember it being pretty typical for four speakers, two five minute youth speakers and two adults in all my wards/branches...except Russia which would have meant twice monthly talks for the youth.  Now one youth is usual, I suspect because we just don't have as many youth with smaller and older families.  I have not been in Primary down here, so that may be just my perception.  We have an established ward though, my son is in new houses area about 5 minutes away from us, gets divided every year or so and have a primary size just like I remember it 30 years ago (missing the open fields though quite a lot left).  Not sure about their youth numbers though.  Will have to ask if I remember and see if they do/did one or two youth speakers.

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On 2/23/2019 at 10:55 AM, CMZ said:

I'm in America (pretty unique of me, huh?) and was at a small-ish meeting with Elder Bednar in 2007 and he talked about how... well, I don't remember the exact wording, but the gist of it was, "If your experience with the Church is primarily through the culture that has been built up around the Church and you think that the people in Africa who are actually living the gospel are backwards people who don't get it like you do, then you might be in for a shock."

I get it well, they are definitely the lucky ones there in Africa. They aren't stuck in Utah, sorry for those that don't believe it can be a deterrent to grow up here, as Bednar mentions. But sometimes think it can be more a social club at times or just checking off a to do list. Sorry Scott Lloyd, I know you won't like the sound of that. ETA: But I do love my hometeacher couple who minister and spend time with me and my husband even when we've been inactive. They are the real deal.

Edited by Tacenda

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13 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I get it well, they are definitely the lucky ones there in Africa. They aren't stuck in Utah, sorry for those that don't believe it can be a deterrent to grow up here, as Bednar mentions. But sometimes think it can be more a social club at times or just checking off a to do list.

The choice to be a 'cultural Mormon' is just that: a choice. It may be easier where you live than it is here or in Africa, but the easiness of a choice doesn't change that it's a choice. Do you treat the Church like a social club with a to-do list?

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4 hours ago, Duncan said:

has anyone else's intermediate hymn been taken out? we had two speakers and they just spoke one after another

Even before we went to the two-hour block my ward never always had an intermediate hymn.

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1 minute ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The choice to be a 'cultural Mormon' is just that: a choice. It may be easier where you live than it is here or in Africa, but the easiness of a choice doesn't change that it's a choice. Do you treat the Church like a social club with a to-do list?

It's become that way in the last few years, IMO. But attitude is very important. I added more to my post though. In my active years a couple of years ago. A lot of people hated home teaching and visiting teaching. And getting visits. People seem very busy in life and the last thing they need is someone from church bothering them I guess. But in Africa people are needed.

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18 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I get it well, they are definitely the lucky ones there in Africa. They aren't stuck in Utah, sorry for those that don't believe it can be a deterrent to grow up here, as Bednar mentions. But sometimes think it can be more a social club at times or just checking off a to do list. Sorry Scott Lloyd, I know you won't like the sound of that. ETA: But I do love my hometeacher couple who minister and spend time with me and my husband even when we've been inactive. They are the real deal.

Elder Bednar was not saying that if you are in Utah that you are not living the gospel. But, as Hamba Tuhan pointed out, you could be just going through the motions of living the cultural gospel. And a lot of people really don't even know the difference or that there even is a difference. Many people think you are living the gospel if you successfully put up appearances to others that you are. As Elder Christofferson said in the last conference:
 

Quote

Most of us find ourselves at this moment on a continuum between a socially motivated participation in gospel rituals on the one hand and a fully developed, Christlike commitment to the will of God on the other. Somewhere along that continuum, the good news of the gospel of Jesus Christ enters into our heart and takes possession of our soul. It may not happen in an instant, but we should all be moving toward that blessed state.

https://www.lds.org/general-conference/2018/10/firm-and-steadfast-in-the-faith-of-christ?lang=eng

 

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