Before the Temple is Restored in Jerusalem

[Metis_LDS]

1 minute ago, Doctrine 612 said:

The lds church already has a temple in Jerusalem.

but it’s in disguise.

 

 

Yes I remember when it was built.  I do not really know how to address this idea and not offend people in the process. I was rather amazed at the amount of protest that manifested before the construction.

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

I cannot say that this is wrong for sure but there are compelling things written by Titus Flavius Josephus born Yosef ben Matityahu. If what he writes in (66-70 CE) is true the temple mount is not where the Dome of the Rock currently sits.  So I feel strongly that we do not know really where the Temple should be.  But for it to be in the place that tradtion says would be astounding!  So someone in the Jewish nation will have to rise up and get revelation to find where the Temple will be built. I do not expect this will be soon.

..................One of the problems is that Josephus never saw the temple of Soloman he saw the second temple built by Herod.  We must assume that the second temple was built close to or  right on where the Temple of Solomon was.  The second big problem is that there were no Jewish people in Jerusalem after it was trashed for a very long time,  then generational memory of where buildings stood starts to fail.

The official Exile in Babylon was 70 years.  However, there were always Jews remaining in the land.  The site was not forgotten, and it is the highest point on the Temple Mount.  Always was.  Archeologists know where it was and can explain why.  The only thing which prevents the immediate building of the next Jewish temple is the ownership of the site by Muslims. Israeli law prohibits use of anyone else's holy site.

[Robert F. Smith]

34 minutes ago, Doctrine 612 said:

The lds church already has a temple in Jerusalem.

but it’s in disguise.

..........................................

False.

[Metis_LDS]

20 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The official Exile in Babylon was 70 years.  However, there were always Jews remaining in the land.  The site was not forgotten, and it is the highest point on the Temple Mount.  Always was.  Archeologists know where it was and can explain why.  The only thing which prevents the immediate building of the next Jewish temple is the ownership of the site by Muslims. Israeli law prohibits use of anyone else's holy site.

Perhaps it would be good to agree on why the Temple must be in the right place. Can anyone add to these two points.

1. It has to be a restoration so I feel that is reason number one for the right original place. 

2. It has to be able to bring the foretellings to past such as water will come forth etc... I do admit however that the Lord can make water come forth from anywhere if he so wishes.  But there are writings of water at the Temple in Jerusalem much water was needed for washing the Priests and washing away the blood from sacrifices etc...

[Doctrine 612]

1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

False.

Yes, thats right it’s not true(eye wink) 😉

Edited February 13, 2019 by Doctrine 612

[Vance]

Regarding the Sea of Galilee and the Dead Sea . . . .

Currently both are below sea level.  The Sea of Galilee is about 700 feet below sea level and the Dead Sea is more than 1300 feet below sea level.

Currently, for water to run from the Dead Sea to the ocean the water level would have to rise more than 1500 ft. and then it would flow over Afula and past Haifa into the Med.  That would cause the two bodies of water to merge into one.

 

 

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Yes, thats right it’s not true(eye wink) 😉

Have you actually been in the building?  Iirc, Robert has.

[Robert F. Smith]

6 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

Yes, thats right it’s not true(eye wink) 😉

You may have been reading The Protocols of the Elders of Zion as though it exposes the secret machinations of the LDS Church.  Probably a misinterpretation.

[Robert F. Smith]

8 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Perhaps it would be good to agree on why the Temple must be in the right place. Can anyone add to these two points.

1. It has to be a restoration so I feel that is reason number one for the right original place. 

The Jews will be making that decision themselves -- actually already have.

8 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

2. It has to be able to bring the foretellings to past such as water will come forth etc... I do admit however that the Lord can make water come forth from anywhere if he so wishes.  But there are writings of water at the Temple in Jerusalem much water was needed for washing the Priests and washing away the blood from sacrifices etc...

The Temple Mount has very large cisterns available for storage of water -- the same ones used anciently..  Large aquaducts used to bring water to Jerusalem in quantity.  The same could easily be done today.

[Doctrine 612]

5 hours ago, Calm said:

Have you actually been in the building?  Iirc, Robert has.

Calm down, I am just jerking your chain.

i read a lot about the controversy that the church went through to get it built.

one thing to know we can turn any chapel into a temple.

[Metis_LDS]

There is so much to say about the restoration of all things it is such a beautiful idea to heal hearts of all those who have suffered loss.  I am perhaps not equipped to preach this properly.  The Temple will be restored in Jerusalem at some future point.

(Doctrine and Covenants 78:17)
17 Verily, verily, I say unto you, ye are little children, and ye have not as yet understood how great blessings the Father hath in his own hands and prepared for you;
 

[cdowis]

19 hours ago, Doctrine 612 said:

The lds church already has a temple in Jerusalem.

 

This is an extremely sensitive issue considering our relations and agreement with Israel.

It is not a laughing matter because the enemies of the church will  use this as  propaganda.  Please delete!

Edited February 13, 2019 by cdowis

[Gervin]

On ‎2‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 1:02 PM, Metis_LDS said:

My spouse has some Jewish blood,  so please be respectful of the Jewish peoples when posting.

I was watching a program about the site of the Temple in Jerusalem.

What struck me even more is that the Jews must reunite before the Temple can be restored to them.

Who could decide who would administer the Temple.  We get hung up on where the temple location will be,

but there are bigger things than placement problems that have to be resolved before. 

I was in the Old City, near the Wailing Wall, and wandered into a small museum that housed implementations of worship to be used at the time when the Temple is restored.  They were made/forged based on descriptions from the Torah.  So, some folks are proactively planning for this time. 

[Gervin]

19 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

The official Exile in Babylon was 70 years.  However, there were always Jews remaining in the land.  The site was not forgotten, and it is the highest point on the Temple Mount.  Always was.  Archeologists know where it was and can explain why.  The only thing which prevents the immediate building of the next Jewish temple is the ownership of the site by Muslims. Israeli law prohibits use of anyone else's holy site.

I was on Temple Mount with a very knowledgeable person who had a hypothesis about the location that seemed to make sense, but I know of no agreement as to the actual location.  I'd be curious if you have a reference for the bolded statement.  I've had some interesting experiences on Temple Mount; my wife was openly chastised for sitting on a small wall (she was 5 months pregnant).  Many years later, our son (the one she was carrying) was thrown off Temple Mount for climbing on top of the Western Gate.  He wanted a better view. 

[Metis_LDS]

23 hours ago, provoman said:

Who do you mean by "Jews must reunite"?

Just Judah? All 12 tribes?

I found this but it only applies in Israel.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (Hebrew: הרבנות הראשית לישראל‬, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit Li-Yisra'el) is recognized by law[1] as the supreme rabbinic authority for Judaism in Israel. The Chief Rabbinate Council assists the two chief rabbis, who alternate in its presidency. It has legal and administrative authority to organize religious arrangements for Israel's Jews.

If you search for what is above a Rabbi this is pretty much what you get.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 hour ago, Gervin said:

I was on Temple Mount with a very knowledgeable person who had a hypothesis about the location that seemed to make sense, but I know of no agreement as to the actual location.  I'd be curious if you have a reference for the bolded statement.  I've had some interesting experiences on Temple Mount; my wife was openly chastised for sitting on a small wall (she was 5 months pregnant).  Many years later, our son (the one she was carrying) was thrown off Temple Mount for climbing on top of the Western Gate.  He wanted a better view. 

Here is a nice article from today in the leading Israeli newspaper, Ha'aretz, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/were-there-jewish-temples-on-temple-mount-yes-1.5411705 .

Here is Daniel Smith's placement and reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt6lQAe8ues&feature=youtu.be .

Here are a couple of scholarly virtual tours of the Second Temple (of Herod the Great):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHLD6RXVLaM , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fymffT1M5bg ..

 

This one, in Hebrew, shows how the ancient temple overlaid the current Masjid Omar -- outline in upper right area of screen:  http://harhakodesh.co.il/tour/ .

Scholarly books and encyclopedias contain more detailed treatments:.

 

 

Lundquist, John M., The Temple of Jerusalem: Past, Present, and Future (Westport, CT: Praeger, 2008).

Ritmeyer, Leen, and Kathleen Ritmeyer, Secrets of Jerusalem’s Temple Mount (Wash., DC: Biblical Archaeology Society, 1998); updated & enlarged (BAS, 2006).

Ritmeyer, Leen, The Quest: Revealing the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (Jerusalem: Carta/ Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 2006).

Shanks, Hershel, Jerusalem’s Temple Mount: From Solomon to the Golden Dome (N.Y.: Continuum, 2007). 

Meyers, Carol, "Temple, Jerusalem," in D. N. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, 6 v9ls (Doubleday, 1992), VI:350-369, with many illus.

[Robert F. Smith]

17 minutes ago, Metis_LDS said:

I found this but it only applies in Israel.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (Hebrew: הרבנות הראשית לישראל‬, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit Li-Yisra'el) is recognized by law[1] as the supreme rabbinic authority for Judaism in Israel. The Chief Rabbinate Council assists the two chief rabbis, who alternate in its presidency. It has legal and administrative authority to organize religious arrangements for Israel's Jews.

If you search for what is above a Rabbi this is pretty much what you get.

Correct.  It only has jurisdiction over Orthodox Jews in Israel, and only recognizes Orthodox Judaism as real Judaism.  No Jew can get married in Israel without an Orthodox Rabbi.  Rabbinical courts have jurisdiction over divorce, child custody, and the like, and can have their decisions enforced by police.  Each religious group (Christian, Muslim, etc.) governs itself via a religious court system -- in religious matters.

[Gervin]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Here is a nice article from today in the leading Israeli newspaper, Ha'aretz, https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/were-there-jewish-temples-on-temple-mount-yes-1.5411705 .

Here is Daniel Smith's placement and reconstruction of the Temple of Solomon - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xt6lQAe8ues&feature=youtu.be .

Here are a couple of scholarly virtual tours of the Second Temple (of Herod the Great):  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HHLD6RXVLaM , and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fymffT1M5bg ..

 

This one, in Hebrew, shows how the ancient temple overlaid the current Masjid Omar -- outline in upper right area of screen:  http://harhakodesh.co.il/tour/ .

Scholarly books and encyclopedias contain more detailed treatments:.

 

 

Lundquist, John M., The Temple of Jerusalem: Past, Present, and Future (Westport, CT: Praeger, 2008).

Ritmeyer, Leen, and Kathleen Ritmeyer, Secrets of Jerusalem’s Temple Mount (Wash., DC: Biblical Archaeology Society, 1998); updated & enlarged (BAS, 2006).

Ritmeyer, Leen, The Quest: Revealing the Temple Mount in Jerusalem (Jerusalem: Carta/ Winona Lake: Eisenbrauns, 2006).

Shanks, Hershel, Jerusalem’s Temple Mount: From Solomon to the Golden Dome (N.Y.: Continuum, 2007). 

Meyers, Carol, "Temple, Jerusalem," in D. N. Freedman, ed., Anchor Bible Dictionary, 6 v9ls (Doubleday, 1992), VI:350-369, with many illus.

I read the first and listened to the second.  The first article says there is NO archaeological evidence for the location of the Temple.  Placing it on the rock that now is surrounded by the Dome of the Rock is simply speculative.  Scholars simply don't know.  

[Robert F. Smith]

3 hours ago, Gervin said:

I read the first and listened to the second.  The first article says there is NO archaeological evidence for the location of the Temple.  Placing it on the rock that now is surrounded by the Dome of the Rock is simply speculative.  Scholars simply don't know.  

I am disappointed that you put great stock in a newspaper article, and not in the scholarly sources I cited for you.  The article in Ha'aretz gave a broadscale look at what everyone is saying, but is not a scholarly source.  It is the Israeli version of the New York Times.  I read it regularly when I lived in Israel.  I have bolded your non-scholar POV based on your lack of any knowledge at all.  Is that what scholarship  means to you?  C'mon, Gervin, when are you going to learn your first lessons about scholarship?  Hint:  You have to actually make an effort.

[Gervin]

11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I am disappointed that you put great stock in a newspaper article, and not in the scholarly sources I cited for you.  The article in Ha'aretz gave a broadscale look at what everyone is saying, but is not a scholarly source.  It is the Israeli version of the New York Times.  I read it regularly when I lived in Israel.  I have bolded your non-scholar POV based on your lack of any knowledge at all.  Is that what scholarship  means to you?  C'mon, Gervin, when are you going to learn your first lessons about scholarship?  Hint:  You have to actually make an effort.

You're going to have to make an effort here to defend your statement. 

You said:  The site was not forgotten, and it is the highest point on the Temple Mount.  Always was.  Archeologists know where it was and can explain why.

Kindly provide a quote or the name of an archaeologist who explains why or how, based on archaeology, the site of the temple is known. 

If you'll focus on answering the question, and not attacking me, then you will have a done a great service to scholarship: teaching someone something they didn't know.  Can you do it?  I wonder ... 

Edited February 14, 2019 by Gervin

[mrmarklin]

On ‎2‎/‎13‎/‎2019 at 9:21 AM, cdowis said:

This is an extremely sensitive issue considering our relations and agreement with Israel.

It is not a laughing matter because the enemies of the church will  use this as  propaganda.  Please delete!

The LDS building in Jerusalem is actually on the Palestinian side.  The territory is under dispute and the Church had to get permission to build there from the mayor.

It's a beautiful building with a great view of the historic part of the city.  As one sits in Sacrament meeting the speakers are speaking in front of a floor to ceiling window showing the view.  Very nice grounds as well.  I guess it could be converted to a temple, but the location is not a likely one.

As an aside, the LDS is under strict guidelines to not proselyte.  Judaism is not a proselyting religion.

Edited February 14, 2019 by mrmarklin

[Robert F. Smith]

5 hours ago, Gervin said:

You're going to have to make an effort here to defend your statement. 

You said:  The site was not forgotten, and it is the highest point on the Temple Mount.  Always was.  Archeologists know where it was and can explain why.

Kindly provide a quote or the name of an archaeologist who explains why or how, based on archaeology, the site of the temple is known. 

If you'll focus on answering the question, and not attacking me, then you will have a done a great service to scholarship: teaching someone something they didn't know.  Can you do it?  I wonder ... 

I gave you some excellent sources, from which you can elicit the consensus among scholars.  If you are looking for an easy way in, start with Ritmeyer, Secrets of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, and go from there.  It is a small book and has some excellent illus.

Please don't be like John Dehlin, who is proud never to read any sources.

[Gervin]

4 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I gave you some excellent sources, from which you can elicit the consensus among scholars.  If you are looking for an easy way in, start with Ritmeyer, Secrets of Jerusalem's Temple Mount, and go from there.  It is a small book and has some excellent illus.

Please don't be like John Dehlin, who is proud never to read any sources.

I'm satisfied that you can't defend your conclusion that archaeologists know the exact location of the temple; I knew that you couldn't because I know more than a little about Temple Mount.  I've read extensively on the topic and have been on top of and underneath the Mount on numerous occasions.  I have no idea who John Dehlin is, but your ad hominem attack on him pretty much follows form.  I've also come to the conclusion that there is no fruitful dialogue with you, and with that I bid you adieu.

[Robert F. Smith]

59 minutes ago, Gervin said:

I'm satisfied that you can't defend your conclusion that archaeologists know the exact location of the temple; I knew that you couldn't because I know more than a little about Temple Mount.  I've read extensively on the topic and have been on top of and underneath the Mount on numerous occasions.  I have no idea who John Dehlin is, but your ad hominem attack on him pretty much follows form.  I've also come to the conclusion that there is no fruitful dialogue with you, and with that I bid you adieu.

Well, at least you are consistent in ignoring scholarship at every opportunity.  You were provided with excellent sources, which you are afraid to confront because they might upset your ingrained assumptions.  In that you are not alone.  Many people choose to ignore reality.

[Gervin]

56 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Well, at least you are consistent in ignoring scholarship at every opportunity.  You were provided with excellent sources, which you are afraid to confront because they might upset your ingrained assumptions.  In that you are not alone.  Many people choose to ignore reality.

https://www.logicallyfallacious.com/tools/lp/Bo/LogicalFallacies/1/Ad-Hominem-Abusive