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Are we doing enough? Major story outlining abuse with the Southern Baptists

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1 hour ago, changed said:

..........................

The best thing to do right now is delicately unwind the rest of my family from this destructive abusive church.

Life in general is filled with suffering and injustice.  Sometimes we may escape that fact, but that is only temporary.  That will always be true, in or out of any particular organization.

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When I read things like this, I'm even more appreciative of Sam Young and his cause to end one-on-one interviews in the church. This and all of the other stories I've read is sickening!

https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop?fbclid=IwAR3h-cXKCQOOkaeKqWknONLj4-yBvNHqDOvKpwBi4uJ0hk6a4bLQVXmBQjc

Cannon said because of Moss's role as a bishop interviewing vulnerable adults and children as a religious leader, they are concerned that there could be other victims. Also concerning to investigators was Moss's position in the past as a Lieutenant with the St. George Police Department where he supervised the vice squad.

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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

When I read things like this, I'm even more appreciative of Sam Young and his cause to end one-on-one interviews in the church. This and all of the other stories I've read is sickening!

https://kutv.com/news/local/man-arrested-in-utah-undercover-human-trafficking-investigation-is-an-lds-bishop?fbclid=IwAR3h-cXKCQOOkaeKqWknONLj4-yBvNHqDOvKpwBi4uJ0hk6a4bLQVXmBQjc

Cannon said because of Moss's role as a bishop interviewing vulnerable adults and children as a religious leader, they are concerned that there could be other victims. Also concerning to investigators was Moss's position in the past as a Lieutenant with the St. George Police Department where he supervised the vice squad.

This is horrifying! I am really tired of stories about bad Bishops or ecclesiastical leaders. I am grateful the church has allowed parents in interviews. With these types of stories, I do wonder if it is enough. There is "no evidence" he abused anyone in his ward, but after reading the details of his arrest, his whole ward will be traumatized. What a sad day. 

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More information from a Deseret News article. I think Bishop's need background checks. Do we do those? How could this guy get more jobs as a youth counselor and as a Bishop when he lost his police credentials due to sexual misconduct? He must have been a good "talker." This story disgusts me. How did he get his jobs after the sexual misconduct allegation? https://www.deseretnews.com/article/900056607/former-utah-vice-squad-lieutenant-arrested-in-prostitution-sting-mormon-bishop.html

Law enforcement history

Moss was with St. George police from 1997 to 2012, rising to the rank of lieutenant over the department's vice squad, according to investigators, but was forced to resign from the department due to sexual misconduct allegations.

Investigators at Peace Officer Standards and Training received a complaint in 2012 regarding allegations of sex on duty involving Moss. He relinquished his police certification in 2013, which according to administrators is the equivalent of having his certification revoked, meaning Moss can never reapply to be a police officer in Utah.

"Moss has also served as a leader of a local religious congregation. This also placed Moss in a unique position of trust that allowed him access to vulnerable individuals that could be exploited. Moss denied that he had 'run' any other girls," the affidavit states.

But due to his concerning statements, deputies are asking anyone who may have had involvement of this nature with Moss to contact investigators at 801-851-4010.

According to his LinkedIn page, Moss worked as a counselor in the state Division of Juvenile Justice from 2013 to 2015, where the profile says he worked as a counselor for youth entering the juvenile justice system. The page also said he was program manager/project director with the Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health from 2015 to 2016. He also worked for a year as an adjunct professor at Provo College, the page states.

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10 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

With these types of stories, I do wonder if it is enough.

The question for me is how to balance potential danger from leaders with potential danger of abuse from parents or others that children/youth may turn to bishops to report.  Increased training of all leaders seems appropriate.  Perhaps specialists to be called in at a stake level?  Or make the hotline available to all leaders, not just bishops, so leaders can know where to go to get advice when they feel uncomfortable about saying anything yet out of fear of making things worse, not better.

And the school communities...do they offer seminars to parents on warning signs, etc?

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11 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Investigators at Peace Officer Standards and Training received a complaint in 2012 regarding allegations of sex on duty involving Moss. He relinquished his police certification in 2013, which according to administrators is the equivalent of having his certification revoked, meaning Moss can never reapply to be a police officer in Utah.

Was an explanation of why it was revoked on file?  If no explanation was offered, he could explain the relinquishing as his choice and not forced to.  Were the allegations on file and available to the public/background check system?

Sex on duty could have been a mutual consent incident with a coworker, nothing criminal about it and that is why not in a background check perhaps?

Quote

Moss worked as a counselor in the state Division of Juvenile Justice from 2013 to 2015, where the profile says he worked as a counselor for youth entering the juvenile justice system. The page also said he was program manager/project director with the Division of Substance Abuse and Mental Health from 2015 to 2016. He also worked for a year as an adjunct professor at Provo College, the page states.

Surely background checks would be made for the first two jobs; if so, it makes me think the allegations weren't available to a background check.

Edited by Calm
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6 minutes ago, Calm said:

The question for me is how to balance potential danger from leaders with potential danger of abuse from parents or others that children/youth may turn to bishops to report.  Increased training of all leaders seems appropriate.  

Having parents in the routinely scheduled interviews doesn’t mean a youth can’t reach out for help from a trusted leader if they are being abused by a parent, IMO.  Why does it have to be the bishop they turn to?  They can go to their YM or YW leader or a teacher or any other adult they trust to get help.

Also, I have to believe that if they do choose the bishop to privately report abuse to, they can still do that.

Edited by JulieM
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8 hours ago, JulieM said:

Having parents in the routinely scheduled interviews doesn’t mean a youth can’t reach out for help from a trusted leader if they are being abused by a parent, IMO.  Why does it have to be the bishop they turn to?  They can go to their YM or YW leader or a teacher or any other adult they trust to get help.

Also, I have to believe that if they do choose the bishop to privately report abuse to, they can still do that.

Except the Church is going two deep in all leadership, which drops the likelihood of those conversations way, way down from what I understand has been studied in how children report abuse (children most often tell other children first and then privately with safe, familiar adults like teachers).  And having a private encounter makes it harder if the parent tells the child they are never to be alone with any leaders...where once that might have seemed strange which might have raised suspicions about parents themselves, now abusive parents will be seen as being appropriately cautious.

While I know there are leaders and teachers out there abusing kids, in the too many cases I have been personally connected to through extended family and friends, it has always been a relative, so I tend to be hypersensitive about having nonfamily adult relationships that allows kids time away from parents to open up about abuse.

Edited by Calm
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12 minutes ago, Calm said:

The question for me is how to balance potential danger from leaders with potential danger of abuse from parents or others that children/youth may turn to bishops to report.  Increased training of all leaders seems appropriate.  Perhaps specialists to be called in at a stake level?  Or make the hotline available to all leaders, not just bishops, so leaders can know where to go to get advice when they feel uncomfortable about saying anything yet out of fear of making things worse, not better.

And the school communities...do they offer seminars to parents on warning signs, etc?

I've been debating this in my own head for years. Bishop's can really mess up your kids in ways that do not in anyway involve abuse. They are not trained counselors. They are not qualified to deal with many topics. This is the extreme case. But, I have also felt, teenagers, would also like a Bishop to ask advice of and seek counsel from when they feel they can't talk to their parents. Weighing the good Bishops can do and bad Bishops can do is difficult when it comes to children. I do not like "probing" sexual questions of youth. I feel they should not be asked any other questions than those outlined in the temple recommend questions. I actually feel one paragraph gives Bishops license to veer off into too many areas and become too subjective. When you open these discussions up to anything in For the Strength of Youth, these conversations could get too explicit. https://www.lds.org/bc/content/ldsorg/church/news/2018/06/20/15790_000_letter.pdf?lang=eng Many Bishops do a great job but some do not. There are too many stories about those who do not.

"When discussing obedience to the commandments, the bishop and his counselors make appropriate use of the limited-use temple recommend interview questions and the standards and explanations in For the Strength of Youth. Leaders adapt the discussion to the understanding and questions of the youth. They ensure that discussions about moral cleanliness do not encourage curiosity or experimentation." 

This takes skill and training that I feel many Bishops do not have. I'm not sure individual youth interviews are worth the risk. These are minors and children.


 

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30 minutes ago, Calm said:

Was an explanation of why it was revoked on file?  If no explanation was offered, he could explain the relinquishing as his choice and not forced to.  Were the allegations on file and available to the public/background check system?

Sex on duty could have been a mutual consent incident with a coworker, nothing criminal about it and that is why not in a background check perhaps?

Surely background checks would be made for the first two jobs; if so, it makes me think the allegations weren't available to a background check.

Yeah, he must have been a really good deceiver...but most predators are. I find this really sad for his ward. 

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26 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

Yeah, he must have been a really good deceiver...but most predators are. I find this really sad for his ward. 

If I understood the article correctly, it sounded more like he was 'applying' for the job as a pimp rather than being part of an established ring and he had claimed he had been one in the past.

Confirmed details of what was actually done rather than just talked about were limited in his case.  The case of the other man picked up in the sting for soliticing for sex with a minor appeared only connected by the sting itself.

And we only know his dismissal was sex related and had nothing to do with victims or witnesses.

That he was previously involved in the vice squad and is now making claims about "running girls" is a huge red flag, but it seems at the moment the reports are low on evidence or details on actual abuse outside of his assault on the two who posed as prostitutes (looking for a "manager" if I understood correctly).

Edited by Calm

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36 minutes ago, Calm said:

And we only know his dismissal was sex related and had nothing to do with victims or witnesses.

Which, if known, should have disqualified him as a Bishop. But, maybe not.  Can you serve as a Bishop if you have been disciplined for adultery? If it was not known, he was a good liar for years and years.

We know his infraction was serious enough to disqualify him from being a cop in the entire state so they must have had some record, somewhere.

Edited by bsjkki

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8 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

We know his infraction was serious enough to disqualify him from being a cop in the entire state so they must have had some record, somewhere.

But that could have been for just violating a policy given what institutions are like.  I need to walk over to my friend the excop's house tomorrow...but it is winter and I don't do walks in the cold.  Really curious...and yet don't want to know given the eww factor.

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One of the revocations here was due in part to a guy having sex with his wife while on duty, so it doesn't have to be adultery to get him kicked off apparently from the way it is written, though it could have been more his kissing a minor and lying about it...but they gave more ink to the sex with his wife as if that was the straw...

https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/01/03/utahs-police-regulators/

Edited by Calm

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Got to wonder why he preferred for the investigation to be stopped:

Quote

Officer’s Right to Surrender Certification and Avoid Adjudicative Proceedings

Utah Code 53-6-211.5 passed by 2010 legislature provides that a peace officer may voluntarily relinquish their certification when a disciplinary issue regarding the peace officer has been referred to POST. If an officer voluntarily relinquishes their certification all investigative and adjudicative procedures immediately cease.  A peace officer who voluntarily relinquishes their certification under 53-6-211.5 may not thereafter be certified as a peace officer in the state of Utah.

https://post.utah.gov/in-service-investigations/decertify-process/

Anyone want to get a little unnerved about who is protecting us should do a search on terms "revoked certification", Utah (or your state assuming the process is the same), and police.  And then read several years' worth.

Edited by Calm
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https://kslnewsradio.com/1897398/police-discipline-lenient-utah-auditor-finds/?

Quote

He also suggests background information about an officer’s past disciplinary actions should be more accessible than it is now.  Currently, when an officer wants to transfer from one agency to another, the department can see if that person has been disciplined, but they can’t see why.

 

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Sad to learn this . Pleased to hear call here for more to be done. 

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5 hours ago, bsjkki said:

. They are not trained counselors. They are not qualified to deal with many topics.

Crazy that this is necessary to keep repeating to people.

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2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Crazy that this is necessary to keep repeating to people.

Well, .I have seen plenty of trained counselors, teachers, and doctors screw things up royally and damage people's lives because they thought they knew enough and didn't have to listen.

I have had doctors send me home with yet more antidepressants after spending a half an hour explaining that I was very happy in my life, just tired all the time, and antidepressants don't work for me and I have bad reactions...and yet that is what they always gave me ( about a dozen docs over 15 years all overcUS and Canada).  Doctors won't often admit they don't have a clue and will hand out the drug of the day even if contraindicated if they haven't  paid attention.

Then there was the time I went to talk to a psychiatrist about a new antidepressant because I wanted to get pregnant again and had been disagnosed last time with postpartum (sleep deprivation actually, but didn't know then).  And I wanted to be prepared.  I wanted info, not drugs...he sent me home with a prescription to be filled right away and instructions to tell my husband to stop pressuring me to have a another kid...the complete opposite of what I had explained to him.  I tore that up walking out his door.  Last time I ever assumed a doctor would try and understand.  Thankfully a few have beaten the odds.

I was more knowledgeable with my daughter's therapists and psychiatrist.  I very carefully explained the three major disorders, how they interacted with each other and what drugs couldn't be taken because of the other disorders.  psychiatrist ignored all that, said "I" treat anxiety only and gave her a drug that completely backfired.  Her professional therapist, highly recommended by several doctors for shyness and diabetes adjustment got her to completely withdraw from talking to any adults for probably five years.  She'd be curled up in a fetal position on the couch, not having said a word the whole time and he be handing out assignments and scheduling her for next week as if there was something beside primal fear happening at that appointment.  Oblivious.

 So I am not particularly impressed by trained counselors myself in terms of in general, though I know some I think are very good.

Training is not a magic bullet.

Edited by Calm
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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

Trining is not a magic bullet.

This is very true. I don’t trust doctors and a good therapist can be very helpful but is hard to find. It’s all very tricky. At least with those, I can walk out of their office and never return or find another. It’s much harder to “fire” your Bishop because they are an idiot. Your post brought all my memories of idiot doctors return. Training is not a magic bullet. 

I think the dual role of a Bishop as a judge in Zion and as a spiritual advisor/healer is especially hard for some to navigate. 

I also read through many of reports of the officers disciplined in Utah and why. No names attached so that was interesting. Should their names be public record? Doesn’t the public have a right to know?

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9 hours ago, Calm said:

Was an explanation of why it was revoked on file? 

I read he was having a consensual affair with a fellow female officer.  He got caught and was going to have to go before their board and he resigned from the force before it was made public (if I understood correctly).

I will look for that article again and post that part if I can find it (with a link).

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Well, .I have seen plenty of trained counselors, teachers, and doctors screw things up royally and damage people's lives because they thought they knew enough and didn't have to listen.

I have had doctors send me home with yet more antidepressants after spending a half an hour explaining that I was very happy in my life, just tired all the time, and antidepressants don't work for me and I have bad reactions...and yet that is what they always gave me ( about a dozen docs over 15 years all overcUS and Canada).  Doctors won't often admit they don't have a clue and will hand out the drug of the day even if contraindicated if they haven't  paid attention.

Then there was the time I went to talk to a psychiatrist about a new antidepressant because I wanted to get pregnant again and had been disagnosed last time with postpartum (sleep deprivation actually, but didn't know then).  And I wanted to be prepared.  I wanted info, not drugs...he sent me home with a prescription to be filled right away and instructions to tell my husband to stop pressuring me to have a another kid...the complete opposite of what I had explained to him.  I tore that up walking out his door.  Last time I ever assumed a doctor would try and understand.  Thankfully a few have beaten the odds.

I was more knowledgeable with my daughter's therapists and psychiatrist.  I very carefully explained the three major disorders, how they interacted with each other and what drugs couldn't be taken because of the other disorders.  psychiatrist ignored all that, said "I" treat anxiety only and gave her a drug that completely backfired.  Her professional therapist, highly recommended by several doctors for shyness and diabetes adjustment got her to completely withdraw from talking to any adults for probably five years.  She'd be curled up in a fetal position on the couch, not having said a word the whole time and he be handing out assignments and scheduling her for next week as if there was something beside primal fear happening at that appointment.  Oblivious.

 So I am not particularly impressed by trained counselors myself in terms of in general, though I know some I think are very good.

Training is not a magic bullet.

Seat belts aren't a magic bullet either. You can still die in a car crash while wearing one. Doesn't mean you shouldn't buckle up though.

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I continue to be confused by the pushback at the suggestion there be better training.  

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1 hour ago, JulieM said:

I read he was having a consensual affair with a fellow female officer.  He got caught and was going to have to go before their board and he resigned from the force before it was made public (if I understood correctly).

I will look for that article again and post that part if I can find it (with a link).

Here's more information.  He was serving as Bishop at the time of his arrest (Mill Pond Ward in Lehi):

https://fox13now.com/2019/02/20/former-vice-squad-cop-arrested-in-valentines-day-prostitution-sting-in-lehi/

Quote

 

Capt. Mike Giles, St. George Police, said Moss previously supervised their vice squad but resigned his position in their department seven years ago. He said Moss was involved in a consensual sexual relationship that had "an on-duty component" but was not in any way related to the current allegations Moss faces.

Giles said Moss resigned after his case went to a pre-determination meeting but before any recommendation for termination was made.

 

Quote

 

Detectives say 51-year-old David N. Moss, using the alias "Pilot", contacted women he believed to be prostitutes on social media. Moss told the women he could manage them, which he claimed was different from being a pimp.

Officers say Moss told the women he could protect them, help them avoid police, and book their clients on their behalf. He told the women he had "run" other girls in the past.

Moss ultimately met with the two undercover officers, and during that meeting he showed them cash and said he was "not opposed to paying" for services, detectives allege. He also detailed ways to avoid police and at that point forcibly grabbed one woman's hand and placed it on his genitals.

The document states Moss then unzipped his pants and exposed himself to the two undercover detectives.

 

 

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