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Are we doing enough? Major story outlining abuse with the Southern Baptists

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37 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I didn't mean any government institutions. Mainly religious ones. Because so many think they are men/women of God so they put more trust into them. And maybe teachers/coaches in the schools are second.

I have concerns if you (generically speaking) teach your children not to trust for fear that trust will be used to hurt them, that might significantly affect their anxiety and depression levels.  Children need to feel safe and stable, cared for not only by parents but by other adults.

In fact, it is often the lonely, isolated children who are most vulnerable to predators.

And once this nontrusting children hit adulthood, how will this affect their ability to commit to relationships.

Lower trust in relationships may lead to more jealousy, splitups, and abuse of one's partner.

Encouraging distrust in our children to keep them safer may actually lead to the very thing we are trying to help them avoid, abuse and suffering.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380380/#!po=0.00000

Can you teach distrust in institutions without distrust in individuals being taught as well?

Higher activity in organized religion in general coorelates with higher levels of happiness also.  While not for everyone, I think it is foolish to encourage dispensing with institutions that have contributed extensively to improvement of communities and the well being of individuals.  Rather, it would be better to examine closer what are the typical positives and negatives of organized religion and promote the first heavily while adjusting to lower the incidences of the latter.

Edited by Calm

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On 2/12/2019 at 7:55 AM, ALarson said:

Well, he's on tape now confessing.....so I would imagine his leaders will take action now (or at least call him in to discuss him having had extramarital affairs with both men and women).  It's amazing the leaders were still inspired to call him to direct the two recent temple movies, IMO.  But they are human too.  This will be a case that many may be watching now though to see how the leaders handle it from here.

The church should just disavow this whole claim that any church leader somehow gets a revelation from God on who to call to different positions in the church.  There is such overwhelming evidence that this belief is not true.  It sets up a false trust that somehow God approves of everything church leaders claim as coming from God.  Either God is not involved at all on who is being called or God is ok with pedophiles, sexual abuse, adultery, and any other sin going on when these people are called.  You can't have it both ways.

 

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

 

I did plus a few of your other posts, I have friends who've worked in corrections just like you, one of em with sex offenders.  You are so correct, Bishops, even the general population is poorly equipped to deal with people like that.  What I was alluding to is how easy it is to have your name smeared, should have read your posts a bit more first. 

Let me ask you this, how would you solve this?  I don't see the point in long stints in jail, it costs us a lot of money and really accomplishes nothing.  We could always do what other countries do and just execute them, I doubt that would fly here.  I don't like pedos either but hey a lot of these people were abused horribly as children.  I'm all for taking responsibility for ones life but in cases like this are they even capable of it?  The average person cannot imagine the confusion and rage that's going through these poor peoples minds when they've been accused of something they do not understand.  I do wonder how all this will play out in the future, white flight isn't much of an option and the moment you have kids you can't just hide from the world as easily anymore.  Your kids are going to be exposed to some very messed up kids in school, even if you're a stellar parent there are many, many more who aren't.  My own life growing up was pretty bad, no one cared and i've paid for it, still at least  I know if I do anything horrible I'll have to answer for it, so many people in our prisons can't even do that.  What's worse, esp. in the case of pedophiles the abuse they get in jail just makes them worse.  Judging them, saying the kinds of things so many people do along the lines of next time don't do those things doesn't mean much once they're released.  I doubt the average person thinks that a mentally ill ex convict can really understand what he did was wrong. 

As someone who's been exposed to this kind of stuff, how do you think this will all play out in the coming years?   Like I said, white flight isn't much of an option anymore, we're running out of places to put jails and yep, the old not in my backyard rule is still in full affect.  Families aren't as stable as they used to be and with the latest from the CDC the downward spiral will just continue.

BTW, I like people like you, it was someone who worked with crime victims and violent offenders who made it possible for me to get work at DI, and i'm about as LDS as Trump is Muslim.  I had gone through a horrible stint in life that wasn't my fault and yep, most of the people at the ward wouldn't give me the time of day.  Took me years to understand that it's not like they had it in for me, the majority of people out there just can't fathom just how horrible life can be to people.  I do think that's going to change very soon.  The USA is playing catch up with the UK in areas like drug abuse and family disfunction, they've had to deal with it for decades.  I had a conversation with my 90 year old aunt today, she's not a fan of things like legal dope yet does understand the root cause, atleast one of them, family disfunction and the broken people it creates.

Sorry, i don’t work corrections.  I’ll save your questions for someone else

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2 hours ago, california boy said:

The church should just disavow this whole claim that any church leader somehow gets a revelation from God on who to call to different positions in the church.  There is such overwhelming evidence that this belief is not true.  It sets up a false trust that somehow God approves of everything church leaders claim as coming from God.  Either God is not involved at all on who is being called or God is ok with pedophiles, sexual abuse, adultery, and any other sin going on when these people are called.  You can't have it both ways.

 

Your reasoning only works if humans have not free agency. As long as humans have free agency they will remain human and may choose poorly. 

As far as inspiration in every calling?  Hmm, I don't think I believe in such a thing necessarily. What I do believe is that each individual that accepts to serve is offered an opportunity of growth and interaction with the Holy Spirit. Said another way, God works with the tools he has and accomplishes miracles with those fallible tools. 

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17 hours ago, changed said:

 

Our abuser will be in their 90's when released, no probation under Jessica's law.  He denies even now what he did, even though it is all on video tape - he is convinced there is nothing wrong with what he did.  It is a mental insanity, and those who have this disease need to be put away for life for the safety of children.  

Laymen in the church have no idea what they are dealing with - they will believe the abuser's lies, believe nothing wrong happened, victim shaming, victim blaming, ignore, laugh at, roll their eyes at - allow abuse to continue for year after year after year - because until you are in it, you don't understand it.

This is the sad truth of it, what you say. Until they feel it due to a close loved one being abused they cannot believe it and they think the guilty ones are sorry-they are not. That being said do not forget that there are some who are falsely accused, a minority. In my professional opinion when these people are let out of prison they need lifetime supervision, parole or probation. This sex addiction is the worst, worse than heroin, fentanyl, crack cocaine or anything else. They never give it up, they are always thinking about it and they are always excusing themselves, blaming others, minimizing, justifying, deflecting and acting as though it never really happened - virtually all of them. I know, I have watched them do it for years.

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12 hours ago, california boy said:

The church should just disavow this whole claim that any church leader somehow gets a revelation from God on who to call to different positions in the church.  There is such overwhelming evidence that this belief is not true.  It sets up a false trust that somehow God approves of everything church leaders claim as coming from God.  Either God is not involved at all on who is being called or God is ok with pedophiles, sexual abuse, adultery, and any other sin going on when these people are called.  You can't have it both ways.

 

But......I got revelation about three different callings and who should be called in the last week.............

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10 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

Your reasoning only works if humans have not free agency. As long as humans have free agency they will remain human and may choose poorly. 

As far as inspiration in every calling?  Hmm, I don't think I believe in such a thing necessarily. What I do believe is that each individual that accepts to serve is offered an opportunity of growth and interaction with the Holy Spirit. Said another way, God works with the tools he has and accomplishes miracles with those fallible tools. 

So it is ok to extend callings to those that are molesting children, abusing others and committing adultery.  The flaw is that those who are committing such horrible acts are willing to keep doing them?  Being worthy for the calling is not something leaders or God cares about?  God and leaders are ok with preditors being put in positions where they can keep on sinning and too bad for those that end up being victims?  

And you want to be a member of such a church?

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23 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

But......I got revelation about three different callings and who should be called in the last week.............

Yeah, we have all heard that story, haven't we.  It is not me that wants you to do this calling, it is God.  So are you going to do what God wants you to do?

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6 minutes ago, california boy said:

Yeah, we have all heard that story, haven't we.  It is not me that wants you to do this calling, it is God.  So are you going to do what God wants you to do?

Well, are you? ;) 

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13 hours ago, Calm said:

I have concerns if you (generically speaking) teach your children not to trust for fear that trust will be used to hurt them, that might significantly affect their anxiety and depression levels.  Children need to feel safe and stable, cared for not only by parents but by other adults.

In fact, it is often the lonely, isolated children who are most vulnerable to predators.

And once this nontrusting children hit adulthood, how will this affect their ability to commit to relationships.

Lower trust in relationships may lead to more jealousy, splitups, and abuse of one's partner.

Encouraging distrust in our children to keep them safer may actually lead to the very thing we are trying to help them avoid, abuse and suffering.  

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5380380/#!po=0.00000

Can you teach distrust in institutions without distrust in individuals being taught as well?

Higher activity in organized religion in general coorelates with higher levels of happiness also.  While not for everyone, I think it is foolish to encourage dispensing with institutions that have contributed extensively to improvement of communities and the well being of individuals.  Rather, it would be better to examine closer what are the typical positives and negatives of organized religion and promote the first heavily while adjusting to lower the incidences of the latter.

I listened to a podcast with Sam Young this morning and he mentioned a few stories from the anonymous letters sent to him through his blog for no one-on-one interviews. https://protectldschildren.org 

And then Sam mentioned asking his daughters what was asked during their bishop interviews. And what came through with one of his daughters and from the letters, was that the question about masturbation led them to search what the word meant for starters and then that led to viewing pornography that came up as well. 

So what this tells me is that in the church, as long as bishops continue asking such young youth, now starting at 11 vs. previous 12, they are getting steered to porn more or less.

It's no wonder that the church has such a problem with porn in the church. Let alone the shame that came with the  confession of viewing and then participating in masturbation after the bishop inadvertantly introduced them into it. 

And also what was mentioned in the podcast was the lowered numbers in marrying now among the millennials. Could it be that young men/women are shamed so much that they don't think they're good enough to marry or what was mentioned is the men don't want to marry and have the possiblity of their wives divorcing them for viewing porn.

So much to say here, but what I'm trying to show is that the LDS church has hurt a lot of people through these interviews. Probably thousands. So I'm not trying to say to stop going to church, I'm saying stop doing what doesn't work and what causes harm. 

I'm saying that some church leaders sexually abuse just by asking the questions because it provided a pathway to look into what certain names mean. Sure you could blame their parents, but I'm guilty for not talking about these terms with my own children and I'm not alone. 

Please name any other institution that asks such explicitly sexual questions to youth as young as 11? I bet you can't come up with one. 

Edited by Tacenda

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

So it is ok to extend callings to those that are molesting children, abusing others and committing adultery.  The flaw is that those who are committing such horrible acts are willing to keep doing them?  Being worthy for the calling is not something leaders or God cares about?  God and leaders are ok with preditors being put in positions where they can keep on sinning and too bad for those that end up being victims?  

And you want to be a member of such a church?

This king of response is beyond exaggeration and mocks being ridiculous. No, Cal, as you well know it is not okay to extend callings to those that are in the act of molesting children, abusing others and committing adultery. I am sure it does not come as a shock that that is the simple answer to such an obnoxious statement.  

It is further not much of a shock that humans remain human regardless of their calling. It is the same where today a man is a faithful father and then tomorrow he makes a choice that sets him on the road to being an adulterer or a pervert or a shoplifter or a drug addict or an alcoholic. 

I am convinced that God desires that each of his children would choose to be righteous, obedient children. Not surprisingly, few of God's children do not fulfill his desires. 

I choose to be a member of a church that was organized by God and possessing his authority to act in his name rather than a church that is created by humans and only teaches what people want to hear; that have zero authority to act in God's name.  Further I choose to be a member of a church that actually understands the meaning of righteousness rather than condoning any action of a human as being okay and acceptable. I enjoy a church that actually knows God rather than some ephemeral thing that floats about the cosmos without any real purpose but to itch the scratch of one's ears. 

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It’s ok in my opinion to think for yourself and still glean the good stuff that comes from faith and a relationship with god that makes sense to you. 

God doesn’t direct your bishop to call a child molester to work in the primary.  No matter what’s being said At the pulpit. God wants us to serve.  The church needs us to serve or it won’t run.  Men can’t know everything.  California, neither you nor I believe any more that callings are all inspiration directly of God every time, even if someone claims it from the pulpit or claims it when a call is issued.  I live and let live though, and most every Calling I’m given I take as a way of giving back to an organization that gives me so much and to God who gives me all. I’m ok with it.  Nothing will rob me of my joy. But I won’t be manipulated. 

And im sorry you too have been hurt along the way. 

Edited by MustardSeed
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4 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

This king of response is beyond exaggeration and mocks being ridiculous. No, Cal, as you well know it is not okay to extend callings to those that are in the act of molesting children, abusing others and committing adultery. I am sure it does not come as a shock that that is the simple answer to such an obnoxious statement.  

It is further not much of a shock that humans remain human regardless of their calling. It is the same where today a man is a faithful father and then tomorrow he makes a choice that sets him on the road to being an adulterer or a pervert or a shoplifter or a drug addict or an alcoholic. 

I am convinced that God desires that each of his children would choose to be righteous, obedient children. Not surprisingly, few of God's children do not fulfill his desires. 

I choose to be a member of a church that was organized by God and possessing his authority to act in his name rather than a church that is created by humans and only teaches what people want to hear; that have zero authority to act in God's name.  Further I choose to be a member of a church that actually understandsOLE the meaning of righteousness rather than condoning any action of a human as being okay and acceptable. I enjoy a church that actually knows God rather than some ephemeral thing that floats about the cosmos without any real purpose but to itch the scratch of one's ears. 

3

And my WHOLE point is that this idea that leadership in the church has some kind of revelation when they call people to positions has been proven wrong over and over again by these kinds of callings extended to people who should NEVER hold such callings.  I don't believe for one minute that God inspires leaders to call people who are molesting and abusing others.  No revelation occurs.  No inspiration occurs.  

This is what you wrote

Quote

What I do believe is that each individual that accepts to serve is offered an opportunity of growth and interaction with the Holy Spirit. Said another way, God works with the tools he has and accomplishes miracles with those fallible tools. 

Really?  God sometimes inspires leaders to call a predator because that is the tools God has to work with?  I think the more kind answer would be to admit that no revelation occurs.  There are a lot of claims in the Church that God is guiding this church, but plenty of evidence that is not the case.  Too many times where leaders have said that God is the one who inspired policies made promises and callings which later proved to not be the case.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Well, are you? ;) 

I am doing what God wants me to do.  I absolutely feel His guidance in my life.  And that is the very best thing a person can use to guide his life.  

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1 hour ago, MustardSeed said:

It’s ok in my opinion to think for yourself and still glean the good stuff that comes from faith and a relationship with god that makes sense to you. 

God doesn’t direct your bishop to call a child molester to work in the primary.  No matter what’s being said At the pulpit. God wants us to serve.  The church needs us to serve or it won’t run.  Men can’t know everything.  California, neither you nor I believe any more that callings are all inspiration directly of God every time, even if someone claims it from the pulpit or claims it when a call is issued.  I live and let live though, and most every Calling I’m given I take as a way of giving back to an organization that gives me so much and to God who gives me all. I’m ok with it.  Nothing will rob me of my joy. But I won’t be manipulated. 

And im sorry you too have been hurt along the way. 

I completely and fully agree with you.  I loved serving in the Church.  I love that others serve.  I think one of the great strengths of the Church is having members involved in service and teaching others.  But these claims that God has called that person to his calling creates a very dangerous expectation.  It makes it seem like God wants that person in that position so that person can't possibly be evil or a predator.  It puts a false trust using that claim when no such trust should be attributed to God.  

What is so terrible about just saying a person is asked to serve in a position because church leaders think they are best qualified or just needed in that position.  I have been in countless bishopric meetings when individuals have been discussed to fulfill a calling.  No shafts of lights from heaven were involved.  It just seemed like a good fit for what was needed for either the church or the individual.  It should be presented like that.

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

And my WHOLE point is that this idea that leadership in the church has some kind of revelation when they call people to positions has been proven wrong over and over again by these kinds of callings extended to people who should NEVER hold such callings.  I don't believe for one minute that God inspires leaders to call people who are molesting and abusing others.  No revelation occurs.  No inspiration occurs.  

This is what you wrote

Really?  God sometimes inspires leaders to call a predator because that is the tools God has to work with?  I think the more kind answer would be to admit that no revelation occurs.  There are a lot of claims in the Church that God is guiding this church, but plenty of evidence that is not the case.  Too many times where leaders have said that God is the one who inspired policies made promises and callings which later proved to not be the case.

You have got to be kidding me! This logic is the kind that is sold out of Cracker Jacks boxes. Go slow now - who has choice? Can a good man choose poorly in the future?  If not, please explain how Jesus chose Judas Iscariot?  Was Jesus wrong to choose Judas? Why was Judas allowed to have free agency as an apostle.  

Known child molestors, adulterers, perverts, etc. are not extended callings of leadership.

You might want to spend the next several months, if not years, studying the meaning of free agency. Obviously, you don't have any degree of understanding of what it means or its implications. 

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38 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

You have got to be kidding me! This logic is the kind that is sold out of Cracker Jacks boxes. Go slow now - who has choice? Can a good man choose poorly in the future?  If not, please explain how Jesus chose Judas Iscariot?  Was Jesus wrong to choose Judas? Why was Judas allowed to have free agency as an apostle.  

Known child molestors, adulterers, perverts, etc. are not extended callings of leadership.

You might want to spend the next several months, if not years, studying the meaning of free agency. Obviously, you don't have any degree of understanding of what it means or its implications. 

You appear to have no idea what I am really stating. That's sad.

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3 hours ago, california boy said:

I completely and fully agree with you.  I loved serving in the Church.  I love that others serve.  I think one of the great strengths of the Church is having members involved in service and teaching others.  But these claims that God has called that person to his calling creates a very dangerous expectation.  It makes it seem like God wants that person in that position so that person can't possibly be evil or a predator.  It puts a false trust using that claim when no such trust should be attributed to God.  

What is so terrible about just saying a person is asked to serve in a position because church leaders think they are best qualified or just needed in that position.  I have been in countless bishopric meetings when individuals have been discussed to fulfill a calling.  No shafts of lights from heaven were involved.  It just seemed like a good fit for what was needed for either the church or the individual.  It should be presented like that.

I think that more people would say no to issued callings if it were stated that it was not necessarily God directed.  It’s nearly difficult enough as it is to get folks to cooperate. I don’t say this with any bitterness.  I just understand people, and too many folks are takers and not givers. 

I agree with you in that it’s very difficult for members to imagine that so and so who holds a calling of any import could be doing the types of things that Do happen.  Too many people get disregarded when being treated poorly or worse by such offices.  

We all have agency. Of course.  But what then is the purpose of inspired callings? So much of this conversation involves things we aren’t including in this conversation.  Do you believe in fate? Meant to be? Predestination? 

I dont. 

 

Edited by MustardSeed
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50 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

I think that more people would say no to issued callings if it were stated that it was not necessarily God directed.  It’s nearly difficult enough as it is to get folks to cooperate. I don’t say this with any bitterness.  I just understand people, and too many folks are takers and not givers. 

I agree with you in that it’s very difficult for members to imagine that so and so who holds a calling of any import could be doing the types of things that Do happen.  Too many people get disregarded when being treated poorly or worse by such offices.  

We all have agency. Of course.  But what then is the purpose of inspired callings? So much of this conversation involves things we aren’t including in this conversation.  Do you believe in fate? Meant to be? Predestination? 

I dont. 

 

I don't believe in fate, meant to be, or predestination.  I also don't believe in God issuing church callings, church policies, or leaders who claim such a revelation.  I do believe in free agency and that it is unrealistic to think that a church leader should know when someone is doing evil.  But when the Church claims that God inspired the calling, then one should fully expect a leader to know when someone is doing evil because if God can inspire such a calling, God should be able to also tell a church leader if someone is unworthy of such callings.  

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On 2/17/2019 at 8:53 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

 

Your complaints sound valid, but the only effective way to gain the attention of local ward & stake leadership is to file a major civil lawsuit alleging lack of due diligence, etc.  ...

 

After watching what McKenna has gone through - I do not have the funds, the time, the resources etc. to file against the church.  In case after case the church has shown that it has no sympathy for victims, will never admit being at fault, and will do everything in its power to fight against victims.  They either settle out of court to avoid attention - avoid anything going public, or drag the victims through the dirt.  These kids do not need to be dragged through the dirt any more.  The judicial system seldom works.  We're lucky the ******* is in jail.  We've already spent a few years fighting to get that far, and do not want to spend all savings and entire lives in court.  

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1 hour ago, california boy said:

I don't believe in fate, meant to be, or predestination.  I also don't believe in God issuing church callings, church policies, or leaders who claim such a revelation.  I do believe in free agency and that it is unrealistic to think that a church leader should know when someone is doing evil.  But when the Church claims that God inspired the calling, then one should fully expect a leader to know when someone is doing evil because if God can inspire such a calling, God should be able to also tell a church leader if someone is unworthy of such callings.  

 

Judas was called as an apostle, so... I guess "called of god" does not mean anything.

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17 minutes ago, changed said:

 

Judas was called as an apostle, so... I guess "called of god" does not mean anything.

Well I think Judas had a particular role to play and Christ knew what he was doing when He called Judas.  The atonement had to take place.  I don't believe for one second that an abuser has to be called to a position in the church that allows them access to innocent victims with God's help.  Ever.

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53 minutes ago, changed said:

After watching what McKenna has gone through - I do not have the funds, the time, the resources etc. to file against the church.  In case after case the church has shown that it has no sympathy for victims, will never admit being at fault, and will do everything in its power to fight against victims.  They either settle out of court to avoid attention - avoid anything going public, or drag the victims through the dirt.  These kids do not need to be dragged through the dirt any more.  The judicial system seldom works.  We're lucky the ******* is in jail.  We've already spent a few years fighting to get that far, and do not want to spend all savings and entire lives in court.  

I don't think money is an issue.  There are law firms which can take on a case of that kind (after due consideration of the facts) on a contingency, same as in personal injury cases.  They do so frequently and are very good at it.  However, if your main concern is further damage to the victims, that could be a real concern.  That may leave the problems unresolved and no actual comeuppance, but that has to be your decision.

Edited by Robert F. Smith

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10 hours ago, california boy said:

Well I think Judas had a particular role to play and Christ knew what he was doing when He called Judas.  The atonement had to take place.  I don't believe for one second that an abuser has to be called to a position in the church that allows them access to innocent victims with God's help.  Ever.

 

There are many different ways the atonement could have taken place, and it can mean different things to different people.  For me, Judas, and the other incompetent apostles (can not walk on water, cannot heal everyone, confused, forbidding children to come to Jesus, cannot stay awake one hour, denied Jesus before the **** crew etc. etc. etc.)  To me, this is all an example that - even if they are apostles - they will not be much help to us, we cannot trust them, we cannot rely on them.  Everyone needs to go directly to the savior, with no middle man about it.  

There is no balm in Gilead.  

Edited by changed

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10 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I don't think money is an issue.  There are law firms which can take on a case of that kind (after due consideration of the facts) on a contingency, same as in personal injury cases.  They do so frequently and are very good at it.  However, if your main concern is further damage to the victims, that could be a real concern.  That may leave the problems unresolved and no actual comeuppance, but that has to be your decision.

 

This is how it often goes - when the incident happens no one publicizes it out of respect for the kids involved.  Then years later, when the kids are grown and are finally ready to face their abusers - everyone ridicules the kids "why are you talking about this 20 years later???" 

There is no justice.  There will never be any justice.  The best thing for everyone is to let it go.    

9 And notwithstanding this great abomination of the Lamanites, it doth not exceed that of our people in Moriantum. For behold, many of the daughters of the Lamanites have they taken prisoners; and after depriving them of that which was most dear and precious above all things, which is chastity and virtue— this scripture used to be in the girls personal progress book - teaching children that if someone raped them they were no longer virtuous and chaste... 

The best thing to do right now is delicately unwind the rest of my family from this destructive abusive church.

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