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Alaris

Book of Abraham / Horus

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https://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2019/02/horus-abraham-and-davidic-servant-part.html?m=1

There are many interesting parallels between Egyptian mythology and Christianity. The scholar and skeptic will say Jesus was derived from the Osiris mythology. The believer will say the inverse is true as Osiris is but a manifestation of the truth of Jesus Christ. 

Latter-day revelation reinforces the former as the Book of Abraham teaches Egypt was founded by a righteous Pharoah, the great grandson of Noah, and though they were cursed through Ham to be restricted from the Priesthood, they modeled their society after the Priesthood order. 

Is it any wonder so much truth can be seen reflected in Egyptian society? Eventually Egypt turned to idolatry. But as with the Catholic church where a perversion occurred across centuries where saints are worshiped and idols created, the foundation of truth can still be seen. It's wrong to worship and pray to Saint Peter idols, yet Peter himself was real and righteous. 

Likewise, Horus, the son of Osiris, reflects the many truths and scriptures regarding the Davidic heir. The article linked above focuses on those similarities between the horus mythology and the scriptures of the Lord's servant. 

Moreover there are many links to Horus throughout the facsimiles that reinforce my understanding of who the servant is and what his mission will be. Enjoy

Edited by Alaris
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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

There are many interesting parallels between Egyptian mythology and Christianity. The scholar and skeptic will say Jesus was derived from the Osiris mythology. The believer will say the inverse is true as Osiris is but a manifestation of the truth of Jesus Christ.

Alaris what is your thougts on the Sun God Ra.

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On 2/9/2019 at 1:19 PM, Alaris said:

https://lordoftheseraphim.blogspot.com/2019/02/horus-abraham-and-davidic-servant-part.html?m=1

There are many interesting parallels between Egyptian mythology and Christianity. The scholar and skeptic will say Jesus was derived from the Osiris mythology. The believer will say the inverse is true as Osiris is but a manifestation of the truth of Jesus Christ. ...........................Horus, the son of Osiris, reflects the many truths and scriptures regarding the Davidic heir. The article linked above focuses on those similarities between the horus mythology and the scriptures of the Lord's servant. ........................

Hi Alaris.  There are indeed many parallels or similarities between ancient Egyptian religion and ancient Near Eastern religion (including Christianity), not least of which is the notion of dying and rising gods -- of whom Osiris is only one example.  Egyptian parallels include the concept of Virgin Mary as Mother of God (Theotokos, “God-bearer”), is identical to that of Hathor as mwt-ntr, “mother of god,” as well as Queen of Heaven (Regina caeli), Heifer, Star of the Sea, Intercessor, and “Virgin” (Egyptian hwnt) -- presented iconographically throughout the Mediterranean world as the Mother (Maria Lactans) suckling young Jesus/Horus.  Gilles Quispel even argues that Revelation 12 is really a version of the Legend of Isis the Virgin fleeing with her son Horus from Seth (Typhon-Hydra), including the festal birth of the child-god who comes “to bring salvation into the world” through his legitimate kingship, the very son of the Sun-god, whose traditional birth date, like that of Jesus, is conceptually the very birthday of Reʿ at Winter Solstice, associated with formal temple triads/the Holy Trinity; the newborn child is blessed, “circumcised, purified, and” formally “presented . . . as the new king.”  New Year’s gifts are given for “the feasts of Choiak and Nhb-kЗw as well as those of wp rnpt,” i.e., “the Opening of the Year,” just as they are on Three Kings Day among many Christians (January 6): also known as Twelfth Night or Epiphany.  The iconography of St. George & the Dragon has its origin as “Horus as a mounted Roman warrior spearing Seth [Apophis] in the form of a crocodile.”  

The Egyptian netherworld was foundational for the Hebrew and Christian Hell.  For example, Hell or Amentit as a lake of fire and brimstone (sulfur) which purges or devours the evil ones.  Isaiah alludes to the Egyptian underworld in Isaiah 66:24, “their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched” (with which compare Mark 9:47-49, rather than Matthew 5:29-30), and Deuteronomy 32:22, where one finds a fire burning in She'ol.  Dante’s Inferno is mild in comparison with the Coptic Gnostic descriptions of rivers and seas of fire, chaos, outer darkness, demons and dragons, etc. (Pistis Sophia, Book of Ieu, etc.).  The lake of fire can be found as early as the Old Kingdom Pyramid Texts, but the best source for such imagery is the Late Egyptian Book of the Dead and its companion texts.  Book of the Dead spell 43A, for example, speaks in its rubric of “Not Being Burned in the Fire,” and has a vignette of the deceased standing near flames of fire.  Lake of fire vignettes can also be found in BD 42 (Papyrus of Ani, plate 33), 126 (Todtenbuch, I:140), etc.

The classic Judgment Scene in BD spell 125 (the weighing of the heart) is suggested by Nephi, Jacob, and Alma in the Book of Mormon as an occasion when one faces a “second death” (spiritual death) in which an “awful monster; yea, that monster death and hell” (II Nephi 9:10) and a “lake of fire and brimstone” (Jacob 3:11) await those found wanting in the final judgment of all (Alma 12:15-17,27,32).

Despite the “striking commonalities in ritual” which have been found among the various “dying and rising” gods, Attis, Adonis, Tammuz, Osiris, and Jesus, it is precisely Osiris who was par excellence “the mourned and resurrected god who experienced and overcame death,” and whose efficacy was fully democratized in late Egyptian funerary ritual (Book of the Dead), that all might have eternal life:  Osirification thus represents the mode by which all deceased may identify with Osiris as the Osiris-such-and-such who overcomes death and achieves salvation by following the same ritual path.

 

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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22 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Alaris what is your thougts on the Sun God Ra.

Admittedly, I'm no Egyptian scholar, though it appears brother Robert F. Smith has read up on this topic quite extensively. From the wicki entries, Ra has been combined both with Amun and Horus. Amun-Ra, and Horus-Ra. What's interesting about Amun, to me, is he is the "self-created" "god of gods" which we may equate to Elohim. Then there's this fairly large coincidence in the nomenclature. Amun is very similar to Ahman as in Adam-Ondi-Ahman - the place where Adam walked with God where Ahman may be a name or title for God.  If it's a title, then Ahman-Ra may indeed be a more complete name, possibly.

Bear in mind the great-grandson of Noah was the first Pharoah. There's more to this, though I can't recall off the top of my head. If I recall correctly, there's something more to the naming of Pharoahs. There's "Amenhotep" where "Amen" could also be a derivative of "Ahman." Akhenaten - the Pharoah that tried to change Egyptian religion "back" to one God (who some believe was an extra terrestrial.) IIRC, "Aten" means something. "Ankh" is in the name of his son "Tutankhamen"  as well as "Amen. "Tut" - "Ankh" - "Amen" though again, admittedly, that's just my quick break down analysis that may not hold water. :) But, if Akenaten was trying to return to the "old ways," i.e. the Priesthood, patriarchal order, then perhaps there was more to Tutankhamen's name. 

As of completing that last sentence I had no idea what Tutankamun meant, but here it is:

Tutankhamun means "Living Image of Amun"

(From: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tutankhamun)

That is very similar to what we learn from the first vision where the Lord is the living image of Elohim and where Seth is the image of Adam. Very interesting indeed! Perhaps King Tut's tomb was preserved for a reason. 

Edit: If you look up Tutankhamun in hieroglyphs, sure enough the ankh is in there. The Ankh represents the power of life, or resurrection. The below statement is also from the Wiki:

In hieroglyphs, the name Tutankhamun was typically written Amen-tut-ankh, because of a scribal custom that placed a divine name at the beginning of a phrase to show appropriate reverence.

 

Edited by Alaris
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A FB friend who has studied in the area said this when I shared the discussion with them. "Looks nutty to me. . . . Egypt was founded (if by "founded" you mean the kingdom of Upper Egypt defeated and annexed the kingdom of the delta region) by a warring pharaoh (Narmer) long before the time period of Noah's Flood. Noah's Flood's time is right in the middle of the Old Kingdom which was totally unaffected by it. It's very possible that some common themes in Egyptian religion (resurrection) may have been the historical basis of what became aspects of Christianity, but wild parallelism doesn't interest me."

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38 minutes ago, aussieguy55 said:

A FB friend who has studied in the area said this when I shared the discussion with them. "Looks nutty to me. . . . Egypt was founded (if by "founded" you mean the kingdom of Upper Egypt defeated and annexed the kingdom of the delta region) by a warring pharaoh (Narmer) long before the time period of Noah's Flood. Noah's Flood's time is right in the middle of the Old Kingdom which was totally unaffected by it. It's very possible that some common themes in Egyptian religion (resurrection) may have been the historical basis of what became aspects of Christianity, but wild parallelism doesn't interest me."

It may sound "nutty" and "wild" to those who are unfamiliar with standard Egyptology, but I can provide full citations for every statement I made.  The Great Deluge did not take place at any time during dynastic Egyptian history.  Your Facebook friend is not familiar with the Bible, nor with the annual flooding of the Nile River.

Quote

Israeli Archaeologist Israel Finkelstein " For if  there were no patriarchs no Exodus,no conquest of Canaan -and no prosperous united monarchy under David & Solomon- can we say that early biblical Israel  as  described in  the Five Books of Moses and the books of Joshua Judges and Samuel ever existed at all?"  The Bible Unearthed p.124.

Finkelstein is a minimalist from Tel Aviv University.  He is a nice guy, and I have seen him in debate at UCLA when I was a student there.  He tends to lose his debates with Eilat Mazar and others because he ignores hard evidence which does not fit his narrow preconceptions.

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3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Admittedly, I'm no Egyptian scholar, though it appears brother Robert F. Smith has read up on this topic quite extensively. ...............................

I was merely quoting selections from a book I have written on the subject (without the citations), and I was really just repeating what standard Egyptology says on all those subjects.

3 hours ago, Alaris said:

Perhaps King Tut's tomb was preserved for a reason.

Yes, perhaps so that we could take a gander at this fine steel dagger with gold hilt from his tomb, which matches the description of the Sword of Laban (1 Ne 4:9).

 

 

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"Today, 18 years on, armed with cutting-edge dating and molecular technologies, archaeologists increasingly agree with Herzog that generally, the Bible does not reflect historical truths. But the jury's out on several key issues, and at least some stories have been bolstered by actual discoveries, for instance, in the copper mines of Timna, the mysterious powerful fort of Qeiyafa, and in Jerusalem itself."

https://www.haaretz.com/archaeology/MAGAZINE-is-the-bible-a-true-story-latest-archaeological-finds-yield-surprises-1.5626647

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6 hours ago, Alaris said:

What's interesting about Amun, to me, is he is the "self-created" "god of gods"

Thank You for typing all that information.  I very much enjoyed it and learned new things!

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18 hours ago, Metis_LDS said:

Thank You for typing all that information.  I very much enjoyed it and learned new things!

I should have also mentioned that Noah's grandkids were likely still speaking Adamic, so "Amun" and "Ahman" being so closely related may not be a coincidence. The tower of Babel was closer to Abraham than Noah in the 10 generations that came between the two patriarchs. 

https://www.lds.org/bc/content/shared/content/images/gospel-library/manual/32489/32489_000_004_06_dispensation.pdf

 

 

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21 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

I was merely quoting selections from a book I have written on the subject (without the citations), and I was really just repeating what standard Egyptology says on all those subjects.

Yes, perhaps so that we could take a gander at this fine steel dagger with gold hilt from his tomb, which matches the description of the Sword of Laban (1 Ne 4:9).

 

This was a fantastic video, thank you! It's funny watching scientists try to explain the inexplicable. "Well we know they didn't know how to work iron like this, so meteor!"  Or ... they did know how to work iron like this and the other graves that had similar swords have all been robbed!

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On 2/9/2019 at 1:19 PM, Alaris said:

The scholar and skeptic will say Jesus was derived from the Osiris mythology. The believer will say the inverse is true as Osiris is but a manifestation of the truth of Jesus Christ. 

I think the Osiris as Jesus bit is actually very overhyped with a lot of misleading at best parallels and some deception depending upon the book in question.

That said, it's also clear that all the near eastern religions shared religious elements. So you have a lot of common myths that are found in various religions including Egypt. The Marduck-Tiamat myth for instance appears in Egypt, Canaan, Greece, Israel in Psalms & Isaiah as well as Babylon. And elements that the gospel writers emphasize towards Christ can also be found in many other traditions. 

On 2/9/2019 at 1:19 PM, Alaris said:

Is it any wonder so much truth can be seen reflected in Egyptian society? Eventually Egypt turned to idolatry. But as with the Catholic church where a perversion occurred across centuries where saints are worshiped and idols created, the foundation of truth can still be seen. It's wrong to worship and pray to Saint Peter idols, yet Peter himself was real and righteous. 

I'd be careful there. It appears that different parts of Egypt had their own local deities and those get mixed into larger Egyptian religion, often shifting depending upon who is in power. (Say the differences in at least emphasis as well as characterization of figures like Seth when Upper Egypt, Lower Egypt, the Hyksos or the Ptolemaic empire rule) So I'm very skeptical Egypt was ever not pagan. How to take Abraham 1 with Egyptus isn't completely clear to me. I know Robert has his own views on timing and meaning, but the archaelogical evidence strongly suggests Egyptian religion has been around for thousands of years before the Biblical dating for Noah. How one reconciles that with the Biblical account is up to the individual.

Again none of this is to dispute many influences (in both directions) between Canaan/Israel and Egypt. Indeed as Robert alluded I think there are many in the Book of Mormon that explain purported anachronisms there. I personally think that one could also note that the Egyptian feminine deity tied to the Tree of Life who offers eternal waters parallels Nephi's vision at least as well as the Canaanite Ashtoreth than The Interpreter has an article on. Hathor/Mut in that context actually offers a bit more explanatory power to the whole vision IMO. There's lot of other places as well such as "the fiery darts of the adversary" that some see as anachronist to Paul yet fits some of the accounts of Hathor. So we could have a loose translation of the text that quotes Paul to translate as similar phrase that arises out of a somewhat syncretic Jewish/Egyptian tradition.

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1 hour ago, clarkgoble said:

I think the Osiris as Jesus bit is actually very overhyped with a lot of misleading at best parallels and some deception depending upon the book in question.

That said, it's also clear that all the near eastern religions shared religious elements. So you have a lot of common myths that are found in various religions including Egypt. The Marduck-Tiamat myth for instance appears in Egypt, Canaan, Greece, Israel in Psalms & Isaiah as well as Babylon. And elements that the gospel writers emphasize towards Christ can also be found in many other traditions. 

I'd be careful there. It appears that different parts of Egypt had their own local deities and those get mixed into larger Egyptian religion, often shifting depending upon who is in power. (Say the differences in at least emphasis as well as characterization of figures like Seth when Upper Egypt, Lower Egypt, the Hyksos or the Ptolemaic empire rule) So I'm very skeptical Egypt was ever not pagan. How to take Abraham 1 with Egyptus isn't completely clear to me. I know Robert has his own views on timing and meaning, but the archaelogical evidence strongly suggests Egyptian religion has been around for thousands of years before the Biblical dating for Noah. How one reconciles that with the Biblical account is up to the individual.

Again none of this is to dispute many influences (in both directions) between Canaan/Israel and Egypt. Indeed as Robert alluded I think there are many in the Book of Mormon that explain purported anachronisms there. I personally think that one could also note that the Egyptian feminine deity tied to the Tree of Life who offers eternal waters parallels Nephi's vision at least as well as the Canaanite Ashtoreth than The Interpreter has an article on. Hathor/Mut in that context actually offers a bit more explanatory power to the whole vision IMO. There's lot of other places as well such as "the fiery darts of the adversary" that some see as anachronist to Paul yet fits some of the accounts of Hathor. So we could have a loose translation of the text that quotes Paul to translate as similar phrase that arises out of a somewhat syncretic Jewish/Egyptian tradition.

Thank you Clark Goble. I certainly will be careful with trying to match each and every Egyptian deity to someone real. However, if you didn't read the article in the OP, I strongly recommend you do so as there are too many coincidences in both the mythology and in the facsimiles to discount the Horus parallels to the Holy Ghost.

I would urge you to be cautious in trusting the dating of the Egyptian Dynasties. In fact, Egyptology is a prime example of science that can't be trusted. The lies and disinformation certainly point to the adversary's keen interest in keeping true meanings hidden within Egyptology, don't you think? "Tombs of the pharaohs," is still the mainstream stance on the function of pyramids.

Abraham 1:25 Now the first government of Egypt was established by Pharaoh, the eldest son of Egyptus, the daughter of Ham, and it was after the manner of the government of Ham, which was patriarchal.

He also happened to be a righteous man who attempted to imitate the Priesthood Patriarchal Order. Adamic may have still been spoken before the language was confounded - or Amun / Ahman is just a pure coincidence as well as the many, many coincidences I point out in my article. 

Edited by Alaris
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2 hours ago, Alaris said:

I would urge you to be cautious in trusting the dating of the Egyptian Dynasties. In fact, Egyptology is a prime example of science that can't be trusted.

Don't think I made any claims about dynasties, just that there is clear evidence of civilization in Egypt going back at least to 7,000 BC and there's also evidence there (as well as in Israel) of inhabitants in the lower Paleolithic period circa 90,000 BC. There's also evidence of Acheulean hand axes going back to 300,000 BC - likely before humans had full language. The Archin 8 site is in upper Egypt. If the reference in Abraham is to lower Egypt (it's not clear from the text). However by 6,000 BC - still millennia before Abraham - there are neolithic settlements all over Egypt.

If you want to just date to the first Pharaoh then we're talking the Early Dynastic Period. Even if the dating of the various dynasties were off, we're still talking about the dates for Narmer's tomb and Ka's tomb (his successor). Those date to around 3,000 BC. However archaeologists have unsurprisingly found tombs prior to the reign of Narmer, including a recent 5,600 year old one. So even if this unknown person wasn't the first Pharaoh, he was living there prior and ruling. It's not clear when Egyptus in Abraham dates to, but even if were one to take the Genesis ages seriously (rather than as reflecting Mesopotamian counting or skipping generations) we're talking around 2,300 BC. (Going by Ussher, although I don't buy his dating for a second) 

Exactly how we are to take the passages relating to Abraham 1 isn't clear. But I'm very skeptical it's talking about Narmer or any of the other Pharoahs for quite some time. 

 

 

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9 hours ago, clarkgoble said:

I think the Osiris as Jesus bit is actually very overhyped with a lot of misleading at best parallels and some deception depending upon the book in question.

That said, it's also clear that all the near eastern religions shared religious elements. So you have a lot of common myths that are found in various religions including Egypt. The Marduck-Tiamat myth for instance appears in Egypt, Canaan, Greece, Israel in Psalms & Isaiah as well as Babylon. And elements that the gospel writers emphasize towards Christ can also be found in many other traditions. .......................So we could have a loose translation of the text that quotes Paul to translate as similar phrase that arises out of a somewhat syncretic Jewish/Egyptian tradition.

Syncretism runs in all directions, but does not tell us what was original.  Nibley would simply point out that the original, authentic teachings get heavily mythologized and paganized over time.  The Hebrew version of all that is quite late, and is preceded by multiple parallels worldwide -- which is why the work of di Santillana & von Dechend, Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell is so valuable.  The parallels are real.  They just need to be untangled and explicated.

It is a huge mistake to take  biblical chronology at face value.  As the LDS KJV Bible Dictionary wisely explains:  

Quote

Bible chronology deals with fixing the exact dates of the various events recorded. For the earliest parts of Old Testament history we rely entirely on the scripture itself; but the Hebrew Bible, the Septuagint or Greek translation, and the Samaritan Pentateuch do not agree together, so that many dates cannot be fixed with certainty. ....The dates found at the top of many printed English Bibles are due to Archbishop Ussher (1581–1656). Some of them have been shown to be incorrect.  https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bible-chron?lang=eng .

Indeed, the LDS Bible Dictionary wisely gives no dates until the reign of King Saul in 1095 BC.  We need to practice some self-restraint.

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11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Syncretism runs in all directions, but does not tell us what was original.  Nibley would simply point out that the original, authentic teachings get heavily mythologized and paganized over time.  The Hebrew version of all that is quite late, and is preceded by multiple parallels worldwide -- which is why the work of di Santillana & von Dechend, Mircea Eliade and Joseph Campbell is so valuable.  The parallels are real.  They just need to be untangled and explicated.

It is a huge mistake to take  biblical chronology at face value.  As the LDS KJV Bible Dictionary wisely explains:  

Indeed, the LDS Bible Dictionary wisely gives no dates until the reign of King Saul in 1095 BC.  We need to practice some self-restraint.

What if the Earth was in a different state pre-flood? When men lived longer, what if the properties of the materials of this world were also different? Would that cause a wrinkle in dating that would be difficult to detect?

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4 minutes ago, Alaris said:

What if the Earth was in a different state pre-flood? When men lived longer, what if the properties of the materials of this world were also different? Would that cause a wrinkle in dating that would be difficult to detect?

It would have to be something that consistently affected everything currently known in existence without leaving a currently observable trace of itself...possible perhaps, but unlikely.

For example men living longer....their bones would have to appear as if they aged at the same rate as they do now, this would have to include internal processes as well as environmental ones (for example, think of the increase in healed minor injuries that could be seen in bones if they were living up to ten times longer....do older bones show a higher rate of injuries and then suddenly decrease?).

Edited by Calm
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51 minutes ago, Calm said:

It would have to be something that consistently affected everything currently known in existence without leaving a currently observable trace of itself...possible perhaps, but unlikely.

Well if anyone can pull that off, God can.

I realize there are more sciencey folks on this site, but remember to be learned is good if they hearken unto the counsels of God. If our reality is a construct, how easy would it be to manipulate? If it isn't, it's it any harder for God to manipulate? 

There are so many discoveries that poke giant holes in mainstream scientific views on history. Such as, "Egyptians somehow knew how to identify true north but the technology did not exist back then." 😐

Obviously it did. 

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My issue is why God would do such an extreme trick to hide his work when the scriptures talk about all creation being a witness.

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27 minutes ago, Calm said:

My issue is why God would do such an extreme trick to hide his work when the scriptures talk about all creation being a witness.

I don't see it as an extreme trick. The Book of Abraham is the perfect example. There is a lot of evidence to support the Book of Abraham - elements found in later discovered Abrahamic apocyrpha, Egypt being under water, accurate translations, "coincidences" etc. etc. There is also a lot of physical evidence against the Book of Abraham for the disbeliever - "It's just a Book of the Dead scroll!," etc.

Mainstream science is full of pride and agendas - when new evidence surfaces that contradicts a mainstream theory, the new evidence is usually disregarded. So many dissertations have been written already - grants pending approval, etc. Anyway, I don't trust the mainstream timelines and there's far more reason to distrust science than there is scripture.

Edited by Alaris

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2 hours ago, Alaris said:

What if the Earth was in a different state pre-flood? When men lived longer, what if the properties of the materials of this world were also different? Would that cause a wrinkle in dating that would be difficult to detect?

Archeologists are pretty good at dating things.  It is the SciFy writers who give us "a wrinkle in time."  As to the long lives of the pre-Flood patriarchs, one really has to translate them into sexagesimal time in order to make any sense of them.  As Einstein said, "God does not play with dice."

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59 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Archeologists are pretty good at dating things.  It is the SciFy writers who give us "a wrinkle in time."  As to the long lives of the pre-Flood patriarchs, one really has to translate them into sexagesimal time in order to make any sense of them.  As Einstein said, "God does not play with dice."

How do you validate any dating beyond the written record? There's nothing against which to verify accuracy.

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12 minutes ago, Alaris said:

How do you validate any dating beyond the written record? There's nothing against which to verify accuracy.

Are you comfortable with the accuracy of written records that were written hundreds if not thousands of years after the actual event they purport to describe?

 

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15 minutes ago, CA Steve said:

Are you comfortable with the accuracy of written records that were written hundreds if not thousands of years after the actual event they purport to describe?

 

You'll have to be a little more specific. Without such I can't recommend starting a new topic or comment as to the relevancy to this thread (as we're starting to veer quite a bit into why science can't be trusted, (which scientists hate.))

Edited by Alaris

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1 hour ago, Alaris said:

You'll have to be a little more specific. Without such I can't recommend starting a new topic or comment as to the relevancy to this thread (as we're starting to veer quite a bit into why science can't be trusted, (which scientists hate.))

Maybe we need to back up a bit more.

 

How do you think the record we have today known as the Pentateuch came to exist in the form we have today?

 

Edited by CA Steve

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