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SouthernMo

Left Hand

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11 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

German prayers are spoken in the contemporary standard language, and in addressing Deity the familiar form of you, your is used -- because God's your father, and you don't use formal language with a parent.  I believe the same is true for Spanish.

This is the case in every single language I have any familiarity with, excluding only Latter-day Saint English. The use of the personal pronouns, both first person and second person, is extremely rare in Indonesian. Euphemisms are instead used. For example, many beginning Indonesian language students are taught that the word for I is saya. But this is actually a euphemism that means 'servant'. The actual pronoun, which has cognates in other Austronesian languages, is aku. My prayers in Indonesian are the main opportunity I have to refer to myself as 'I' and to refer to someone else as 'you' -- in this case, Heavenly Father. It always feels really intimate and personal.

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6 hours ago, bluebell said:

Good thoughts MS!  And I’ll probably be taking it with my right hand too because I usually do it that way. 😊

I like the symbolism.

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5 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

This is the case in every single language I have any familiarity with, excluding only Latter-day Saint English. The use of the personal pronouns, both first person and second person, is extremely rare in Indonesian. Euphemisms are instead used. For example, many beginning Indonesian language students are taught that the word for I is saya. But this is actually a euphemism that means 'servant'. The actual pronoun, which has cognates in other Austronesian languages, is aku. My prayers in Indonesian are the main opportunity I have to refer to myself as 'I' and to refer to someone else as 'you' -- in this case, Heavenly Father. It always feels really intimate and personal.

For that reason I like to pray in German, because of the familiar form of "you". Makes it feel more intimate and personal -- more than "thee" and "thou" does.

Indonesian seems to be quite an interesting language actually.  I met a man from there on my mission in Germany and discovered that one of the ways of pluralizing a word was to say it twice!  And I saw that in a typewritten document he had on his desk there was word written, with a numeral two as a suffix, e.g. "student2".  I asked about it, and he said it was a shorthand way of saying studentstudent.  Oddly enough, I don't think the Indonesian word for "student" is "student" -- but the document was written in German, but apparently intended for Indonesian immigrants.  It was one of the peculiar things about the visit.  He was trying to recruit us into his Amway business!  

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6 hours ago, Oliblish said:

I know you are joking, but when I was young it was commonplace for parents to encourage or even force their children to use their right hand over their left.  If they saw their child holding a crayon or toy in their left hand, they would take it and put it in their right.  This happened to my younger brother to some extent (not that it did any good).

It seems silly now, but there was considerable social pressure to conform and not stand out.  No one wanted to be the one with the left handed child.  Many in the generation of Elder Oaks grew up with that sort of mindset.

My grandmother was left handed and went on at some length as to how she was shamed about it and how that left her feeling less...but it didn't stop her from pushing my brother to use his righthand.  I don't think it took.  He loved baseball, which gives him an advantage, right?  I will have to ask him his perception next time .I see him if I can remember.

I, on the other hand, just went out and bought writing and other left handed aids for my son and make a habit of not sitting on that side of him at the dinner table.  If only he took up the foil, as it would have given him a nice advantage.  

In part, because of my grandmother's obvious resentment, I have always been interested in the symbolism of the sinister left hand.  I prefer the idea the righthand symbolizes the concrete, rational and the left abstract or emotional and needing both to carry one through life.

Maybe deacons should be carrying the trays with both hands to symbolize mercy and judgment in the Atonement.

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2 hours ago, JAHS said:

President George Albert Smith said:
"Our people have been taught to take the sacrament with the right hand; we believe that is appropriate, and proper, and acceptable to our Father. The sacrament should not be accepted with a gloved hand; nobody should receive it in that irreverent manner. We should partake of it in humility, with preparation of clean hands and pure hearts, and with a desire to be acceptable to our Father; then we will receive it worthily, and rejoice in the blessing that comes to us by reason of it." (Conference Report, April 1908, p.36)

So take off those gloves before you take it with your right hand !  

I can think of a few times when people would be begging someone to keep the glove on (my hand covered with an allergic reaction to any bites, for one).  

I don't understand why a glove was irreverent.  Women used to wear hats and gloves as dressing up, their best clothes.  Maybe because he saw gloves at outdoor clothing?

I wish "should" was more often replaced with "may" and symbolism explained where possible as opposed to saying " right and proper".  Right is right and left is wrong, right?

That last sentence is beautiful, on the other hand (right, left, take your pick)

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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

the men not to wear hip boots or waders while performing baptisms

Best visual image of the month....

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6 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Makes you wonder how many religious and cultural beliefs evolved just from the practice of using your left hand for a certain bathroom activity. Just a guess here but I wouldn't be surprised that the reason we read from left to right also has to do with the fact that more people write with their right hand. 

One of my lefthanded wife's elementary teachers would stand next to her with a ruler and hit her left hand anytime she tried to use it to write.

There are plenty of languages that read right to left while I believe percentage of lefthandedness is relatively consistent world wide.

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43 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I met a man from there on my mission in Germany and discovered that one of the ways of pluralizing a word was to say it twice!  And I saw that in a typewritten document he had on his desk there was word written, with a numeral two as a suffix, e.g. "student2".  I asked about it, and he said it was a shorthand way of saying studentstudent.  Oddly enough, I don't think the Indonesian word for "student" is "student" -- but the document was written in German, but apparently intended for Indonesian immigrants.  It was one of the peculiar things about the visit.  He was trying to recruit us into his Amway business!  

This is actually the only way to pluralise a word. The reality is that often the plural is implied by context, and so the the reduplication is unnecessary. It does show up, however, in the name of the Church: Gereja Yesus Kristus dari Orang-orang Suci Zaman Akhir. This translates literally to Church Jesus Christ of Holy People Epoch Final. Without the use of the plural, it could be read as Church Jesus Christ of the Holy Person Epoch Final.

When Indonesia and Malaysia revised their orthographic standards to make them identical, the use of the numeral 2 was discontinued and replaced with hyphenated reduplication. I think that was in 1972, so this man must have been a bit old-school. By the way, if referring to school students, a Sanskrit term is used (which gives it grammatical gender, otherwise non-existent in Indonesian) siswa (m) or siswi (f). University students become 'high students': mahasiswa (m) or mahasiswi (f).

Edited by Hamba Tuhan

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5 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

is not written anywhere but you will NEVER ever see the husband speak first. Simply due to tradition. 

Rare, but does happen in my ward.

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18 minutes ago, Calm said:

I can think of a few times when people would be begging someone to keep the glove on (my hand covered with an allergic reaction to any bites, for one).  

I don't understand why a glove was irreverent.  Women used to wear hats and gloves as dressing up, their best clothes.  Maybe because he saw gloves at outdoor clothing?

I wish "should" was more often replaced with "may" and symbolism explained where possible as opposed to saying " right and proper".  Right is right and left is wrong, right?

That last sentence is beautiful, on the other hand (right, left, take your pick)

Harder to wash your gloves than your hands when you come in off the ranch.

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

I don't understand why a glove was irreverent.  Women used to wear hats and gloves as dressing up, their best clothes.  Maybe because he saw gloves at outdoor clothing?

 

Was it polite to take off hats and gloves in the chapel?  Cleanliness?  How often were gloves washed?

I imagine understanding more of the etiquette of the time would be helpful. 

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23 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

I think some people find Oaks unlikeable.  So they decide to ***imo*** make a big deal about a (**imo**)small deal to make the point that Oaks is not only unlikeable but wrong.  

I personally find the personality style of some of my leaders quite unlikeable.  I find some of them to be personally offensive as they have hurt loved ones directly and personally for the record I’m not an Oaks super fan but then again I’m not a super fan of any of the 12. I sustain them . I’ve actually disliked one quite personally.  A *am certainly a Wendy Watson superfan but that’s a long story.

I don’t need my leaders to be perfect or even likeable in order to find what I need out of my religion. And if I take sacrament with my right hand because it has meaning to me, I have no need for anyone else to do the same because I believe it is a SOFT rule.  That is **my opinion**.  

I think Oaks effectively emphasized the importance of the sacrament to those boys.  Imagine the sense of self esteem they can feel the next time they administer this sacred ordinance? Did he shame them? I don’t know, I can’t know because I wasn’t there.  Context and tone are key, and we haven’t got any input from the boys.  Are there other things he could have said?  Always.  

If we take the sacrament with intent, it is my **opinion** that we are well in our way to pleasing the lord.  If we are taking with our  right hand and thinking about brother joes weak testimony then we have work to do.  

And I for one will likely take sacrament Sunday with my right hand , out of habit and rule following, and I will know that blue will be taking from the left, and I will be aware that I have work to do. So not all is lost. 

Fandom and apostleship seem odd companions.

I have been on the receiving end of some harsh correction from General Authorities. Both times entirely deserved and both times with a show of love afterwards. I did not consider them my enemies. As I read the surreptitiously quoted and cowardly published comment, I see that same approach in President Oaks' behavior with the deacons (not that I think his teaching was in any way approaching harsh).

Edited by Bernard Gui
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5 hours ago, 10THAmendment said:

Just like the wives always speak first in sacrament meeting and the husbands second. That is not written anywhere but you will NEVER ever see the husband speak first. Simply due to tradition. 

 

 

 

Really?  I’ll ask the person who is the better speaker to go second, regardless of whether they are male or female.  

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58 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

Apropos to this and the other current Pres. O thread,  I share this experience for you to ponder. 

As a frosh from NY, I sat in the Marriott Center with 20 some odd thousand people I didn’t know, the majority of whom I presumed to be Utah Mormons, at the first Devotional of the new school year and heard the President of BYU, one Dallin Oaks, tell the student body that he would not think to ever walk across campus with his sister because many of the students knew Sister Oaks and would see him walking across the campus with a woman they knew was not his wife.

His thinking struck me as more than a bit odd and my initial reaction was to wonder if all intermountain west Mormons had the same concept of avoiding the very appearance of evil.

His words have stuck with me over the intervening 45 years, and I’ve pondered them numerous times over that era as I’ve had different experiences.  I can’t say that I’ve adopted the practice shared that day, but i can say I both see the wisdom of that practice, and much more importantly, understand the depth of desire to follow the first and second greatest commandments which I now believe motivated that practice.

My experience with this and other similar guidance I’ve received over the years is that I gain insight and Divine nudges as I strive to discern rather than dismiss, ponder rather than parse, and seek meaning over time rather than ascribe it in the moment.

 

Thank you for this observation. I was given similar counsel when I was ordained a bishop. Keeping it in mind, I was easily able to make suitable arrangements when the occasion arose in which I might be alone with a sister.

 It's so easy to impute the worst motives on our leaders without giving thought or seeking understanding. And it happens so frequently. I think that is exactly what is happening on this thread.

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2 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Really?  I’ll ask the person who is the better speaker to go second, regardless of whether they are male or female.  

When we come to a door that needs to be opened, Sister Gui politely stands to the side while I open it and she enters first. But we're way old fashioned and out of touch.

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9 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Was it polite to take off hats and gloves in the chapel?  Cleanliness?  How often were gloves washed?

I imagine understanding more of the etiquette of the time would be helpful. 

My impression was women kept theirs on, men off, but I may be wrong.

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If we want to get fussy, the entire congregation should be kneeling for the sacrament prayer, not just one priest. 

Note: left handed people are those who are in their right mind

 

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11 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Thank you for this observation. I was given similar counsel when I was ordained a bishop. Keeping it in mind, I was easily able to make suitable arrangements when the occasion arose in which I might be alone with a sister.

 It's so easy to impute the worst motives on our leaders without giving thought or seeking understanding. And it happens so frequently. I think that is exactly what is happening on this thread.

Just to be clear, there seems to be a difference in your application and Elder Oaks. He won’t walk across BYU’s campus with HIS sister.

You seem to take that to mean A sister (female member of the church).

Am I correct?  Or are you aligned, and also avoid being alone with your own sister?

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8 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Just to be clear, there seems to be a difference in your application and Elder Oaks. He won’t walk across BYU’s campus with HIS sister.

You seem to take that to mean A sister (female member of the church).

Am I correct?  Or are you aligned, and also avoid being alone with your own sister?

Both my sisters have passed on.

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1 minute ago, Bernard Gui said:

Both my sisters have passed on.

Sorry to hear that. When they were living, did you avoid being alone with them?

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16 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

If we want to get fussy, the entire congregation should be kneeling for the sacrament prayer, not just one priest. 

Note: left handed people are those who are in their right mind

 

And, only the appropriately robed priests should drink the water and place the bread in the mouths of the members as they file up to the altar. Some incense would also be nice. (Not intended to mock our good Catholic friends)

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1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

Sorry to hear that. When they were living, did you avoid being alone with them?

I was not a bishop then.

”Who was that lady I saw you with last night?”

”That was no lady. That was my sister.”

Edited by Bernard Gui

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5 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I was not a bishop then.

”Who was that lady I saw you with last night?”

”That was no lady. That was my sister.”

But if you had been bishop, you would avoid being alone with your own sister?  Is that an expected level of morality for bishops (and above)?

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42 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

Was it polite to take off hats and gloves in the chapel?  Cleanliness?  How often were gloves washed?

I imagine understanding more of the etiquette of the time would be helpful. 

Something else from a long time ago when the sacrament was blessed you had to raise both hands in the air while saying the prayer. 

sacramentHandsUp.jpg.f49f609630742f336c5fc4dbf14df231.jpg

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