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There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

reading a little Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza this morning.

"You are all brothers. Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven" (Matthew 23:8-9)   "I have come to set a man against his father" (Matthew 10:35)..

 In their analysis of Mark 10:29–30, Osiek and Balch conclude, “The old family included a patriarchal father; the new one does not, since God is the only Father.” 

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1 hour ago, changed said:

 

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

reading a little Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza this morning.

"You are all brothers. Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven" (Matthew 23:8-9)   "I have come to set a man against his father" (Matthew 10:35)..

 In their analysis of Mark 10:29–30, Osiek and Balch conclude, “The old family included a patriarchal father; the new one does not, since God is the only Father.” 

Comments?

I don’t take the first scripture to apply to gender roles but to cultural and other artificial barriers to the Christian bond of fellowship. It is about cultivating a united community in Christ.

I take the Matthew verses to refer to cultivating a spiritual relationship with God and not to limit or tie oneself only to temporal, cultural norms and obligations for family relationships (whatever they may be). I think it is like the Galatians verse in that regard.

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I am pretty sure the oneness Paul is advising is the “members” of the body of Christ where all serve in different roles. Some are eyes, some are feet, some are hands, and some are the appendix and you are not sure why they are there. Gender roles can be seen in that context.

I also do not think it is meat to be demeaning to earthly family relationships. It does mean that God’s position as our Father has supremacy over earthly parents in filial duty and devotion. I think it ties in to the Savior’s shocking command that we must be willing to hate our own families for his sake. It is not a command to hate our families (the Savior taking time in his agony on the cross to make sure his mother was taken care of refutes that outright) but it is intended to shock our sensibilities as to how much more important our devotion to God is.

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"You are all brothers. Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven" (Matthew 23:8-9)

"Whoever does the will of God is My brother and sister and mother.” (Mark 3:35) → "father" is not included as part of the Savior's spiritual family.

To another he said, “Follow me.” But he said, “Lord, first let me go and bury my father.” But Jesus said to him, “Let the dead bury their own dead; but as for you, go and proclaim the kingdom of God.”  - (Luke 9:59-60) - again, disregard for father figure.  

"I have come to set a man against his father" (Matthew 10:35) (not mother) encouragement to reject paternal authority.

“fathers” are among those to be left behind; “fathers” are not included in the new kinship to which the disciples aspire. The old family included a patriarchal father; the new one does not, since God is the only Father.” - Fiorenza

Just interesting.

Edited by changed

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I am pretty sure the oneness Paul is advising is the “members” of the body of Christ where all serve in different roles. Some are eyes, some are feet, some are hands, and some are the appendix and you are not sure why they are there. Gender roles can be seen in that context.

In context, it is more than gender neutrality (though it includes that as well).  Yes - we are all brothers and sisters, there should be no other title than "brother and sister" - no one should be above the other... call no one your father - (Pope / papa / father?) no bishops, no reverends, no titles other than brother and sister - all are alike, no one better than any other.

7 and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled;

 

No bishops, no presidents, no masters, no teachers, no rabbi's - no hierarchy.  We are all just brothers and sisters to one another, and all need to go directly to Jesus and God.

Edited by changed

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4 hours ago, changed said:

In context, it is more than gender neutrality (though it includes that as well).  Yes - we are all brothers and sisters, there should be no other title than "brother and sister" - no one should be above the other... call no one your father - (Pope / papa / father?) no bishops, no reverends, no titles other than brother and sister - all are alike, no one better than any other.

7 and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled;

 

No bishops, no presidents, no masters, no teachers, no rabbi's - no hierarchy.  We are all just brothers and sisters to one another, and all need to go directly to Jesus and God.

These verse you're quoting are taking about everyone coming to Christ-- which indeed everyone has to make that same journey.  And everyone has the same worth.  

But it doesn't mean people don't have different roles along that journey (metaphorical hand/foot/etc).  These roles do include leaders, as scripture shows over and over again.

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12 hours ago, changed said:

In context, it is more than gender neutrality (though it includes that as well).  Yes - we are all brothers and sisters, there should be no other title than "brother and sister" - no one should be above the other... call no one your father - (Pope / papa / father?) no bishops, no reverends, no titles other than brother and sister - all are alike, no one better than any other.

7 and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled;

 

No bishops, no presidents, no masters, no teachers, no rabbi's - no hierarchy.  We are all just brothers and sisters to one another, and all need to go directly to Jesus and God.

No, Paul’s other epistles do not support this reading and even in this epistle he acknowledges the position of an Apostle.

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14 hours ago, changed said:

In context, it is more than gender neutrality (though it includes that as well).  Yes - we are all brothers and sisters, there should be no other title than "brother and sister" - no one should be above the other... call no one your father - (Pope / papa / father?) no bishops, no reverends, no titles other than brother and sister - all are alike, no one better than any other.

7 and the salutations in the marketplaces, and to be called of men, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your teacher, and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father on the earth: for one is your Father, even he who is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your master, even the Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be humbled;

 

No bishops, no presidents, no masters, no teachers, no rabbi's - no hierarchy.  We are all just brothers and sisters to one another, and all need to go directly to Jesus and God.

There is this:

 

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

12 For the perfecting of the saints, for the work of the ministry, for the edifying of the body of Christ:

13 Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ:

14 That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive;

15 But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

16 From whom the whole body fitly joined together and compacted by that which every joint supplieth, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, maketh increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.

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On 2/8/2019 at 9:56 AM, pogi said:

11 And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

 

so... he put some into the evangelical church, and some in the Baptist church, and some into universities and schools with teachers?  

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1 hour ago, changed said:

so... he put some into the evangelical church, and some in the Baptist church, and some into universities and schools with teachers?  

Are you saying that there was no organizational structure in the early Christian Church?

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2 hours ago, changed said:

so... he put some into the evangelical church, and some in the Baptist church, and some into universities and schools with teachers?  

This passage says nothing of different churches.  Indeed all of these churches you mention didn’t exist when that passage was written.

You said “no teachers” etc.  Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong?  He clearly called teachers, prophets, apostles, etc.

Edited by pogi

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:50 PM, pogi said:

This passage says nothing of different churches.  Indeed all of these churches you mention didn’t exist when that passage was written.

You said “no teachers” etc.  Is this your way of acknowledging that you were wrong?  He clearly called teachers, prophets, apostles, etc.

He called imperfect prophets, apostles etc.  He called people who could not walk on water, he called sinners - Luke 5 "Lord, don't come near me! I am a sinner." ... I've always thought the best leaders are not really leaders - the best teachers do not really teach - do not give students the solution manual to copy down answers.  The point is not to create a bunch of dependent followers - not fill a bucket, but light a fire.  Not give a man a fish, let the man go out and catch his own fish - no one would be forced to find their own answers, get their own fish, find their own testimony - if leaders were not horribly flawed and un-trustworthy.  The Lord's ways are not the world's ways - the world puts qualified competent educated people at the helm that you can trust and lean on.  God puts uneducated, adulterous, untrustworthy people at the helm to force everyone to catch their own fish it seems. ... what is the best way to teach someone to call no one your master? - give someone a horrible abusive master - and you learn the lessons well enough - not to call anyone your master.  

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:06 PM, Bernard Gui said:

Are you saying that there was no organizational structure in the early Christian Church?

there was that organized scribes and pharisees group - and then there was that other group - who like hiking in the hills more than attending the local church meetings...

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Just now, changed said:

there was the very organized scribes and pharisees group - and then there was that other group - who like hiking in the hills more than attending the local church meetings...

Can I get a reference for where it says that in the Bible?  I'm not sure what you're referring to. 

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1 minute ago, bluebell said:

Can I get a reference for where it says that in the Bible?  I'm not sure what you're referring to. 

Where did Jesus' most famous sermons take place?  Sermon on the mount - where did he like to pray?  In the hills - 

John the Baptist etc. - these guys did not hang out in church buildings.

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5 minutes ago, changed said:

there was that organized scribes and pharisees group - and then there was that other group - who like hiking in the hills more than attending the local church meetings...

Are you familiar with the writings of the earliest Church Fathers such as the Didache, Polycarp, Clement, and Ignatius? If not, you should be.

http://www.earlychristianwritings.com/churchfathers.html

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1 hour ago, changed said:

He called imperfect prophets, apostles etc.  He called people who could not walk on water, he called sinners - Luke 5 "Lord, don't come near me! I am a sinner." ... I've always thought the best leaders are not really leaders - the best teachers do not really teach - do not give students the solution manual to copy down answers.  The point is not to create a bunch of dependent followers - not fill a bucket, but light a fire.  Not give a man a fish, let the man go out and catch his own fish - no one would be forced to find their own answers, get their own fish, find their own testimony - if leaders were not horribly flawed and un-trustworthy.  The Lord's ways are not the world's ways - the world puts qualified competent educated people at the helm that you can trust and lean on.  God puts uneducated, adulterous, untrustworthy people at the helm to force everyone to catch their own fish it seems. ... what is the best way to teach someone to call no one your master? - give someone a horrible abusive master - and you learn the lessons well enough - not to call anyone your master.  

I agree with a lot of this.  I don't understand the rest.  Again, you said that God doesn't call teachers, etc.  Do you recant?

Quote

I've always thought the best leaders are not really leaders - the best teachers do not really teach

This makes no sense to me.  There are different ways to lead and teach, but they all include teaching and leading. 

Quote

- do not give students the solution manual to copy down answers

Of course not.

Quote

The point is not to create a bunch of dependent followers - not fill a bucket, but light a fire.

Of course.  Are you suggesting our leaders do otherwise?  

I am confused by the rest.  Do you believe in God? Because you seem to be mocking Him and His ways here. 

You seem to be confusing "teachers" and "leaders", etc. with "masters".

 

  

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On 2/7/2019 at 8:07 AM, changed said:

 

There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. - Galatians 3:28

reading a little Elisabeth Schüssler Fiorenza this morning.

"You are all brothers. Call no man your father on earth, for you have one Father—the one in heaven" (Matthew 23:8-9)   "I have come to set a man against his father" (Matthew 10:35)..

 In their analysis of Mark 10:29–30, Osiek and Balch conclude, “The old family included a patriarchal father; the new one does not, since God is the only Father.” 

Comments?

When Nephi quotes Paul (NT wormhole intertexuality) he says in 2Nephi26:33, "he inviteth them all to come unto him and partake of his goodness; and he denieth none that come unto him, black and white, bond and free, male and female; and he remembereth the heathen; and all are alike unto God, both Jew and Gentile" [gay and straight].  

Only male priesthood is allowed to lay hands on the sick today.  In the outsourced to brave scholars essay with the best title ever,  JS Teachings about P, T, and W.  it says that "Church President Heber J. Grant affirmed that the First Presidency 'do not encourage calling in the sisters to administer to the sick, as the scriptures tell us to call in the Elders, who hold the priesthood of God and have the power and authority to administer to the sick in the name of Jesus Christ.' 

This reverses Joseph's more egalitarian teachings, from his lecture on Priesthood to the relief society,  where it was written that 

"Prest. S. then offered instruction respecting the propriety of females administering to the sick by the laying on of hands— said it was according to revelation &c. said he never was plac’d in similar circumstances, and never had given the same instruction.

 "were not going right in laying hands on the sick &c. Said if he had common sympathies, would rejoice that the sick could be heal’d"   “Go ye into all the world” &c.— no matter who believeth; these signs, such as healing the sick, casting out devils &c. should follow all that believe whether male or female. He ask’d the Society if they could not see by this sweeping stroke, that wherein they are ordaind, it is the privilege of those set apart to administer in that authority which is confer’d on them— and if the sisters should have faith to heal the sick, let all hold their tongues, and let every thing roll on."   

Eliza Snow explained that “Women can administer in the name of JESUS [through faith], but not by virtue of the Priesthood", which is confusing since the priesthood is the same thing, the "power and authority to act in the name of God" and it has zero power if not through faith in Jesus Christ.  

This shows the boomerang effect hinging on interpretations of Gal 3:28.  In one sense it was confused and misunderstood, which resulted in reversing the power to ordain Elijah Abel, Walker Lewis, William McCary, Josepht T. Ball, etc.  Then the ban was implemented by a slew of terrible mistakes, then it was brought back through revelation to reverse a revelation to institute the ban which never existed.  Then the same for women.  First women had the gift to heal by the laying on of hands, then patriarchy took over this power as the essay states.  Likely, in the next few years this will be reversed again to match up to Joseph's teachings as a part of the ongoing restoration of all things.  

 

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3 hours ago, changed said:

Where did Jesus' most famous sermons take place?  Sermon on the mount - where did he like to pray?  In the hills - 

John the Baptist etc. - these guys did not hang out in church buildings.

Yes, but where does it say that they skipped their church meetings to hang out in the hills?

Holding church meetings outside isn’t exactly what you said before. 

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2 hours ago, pogi said:

I agree with a lot of this.  I don't understand the rest.  Again, you said that God doesn't call teachers, etc.  Do you recant?

This makes no sense to me.  There are different ways to lead and teach, but they all include teaching and leading. 

Of course not.

Of course.  Are you suggesting our leaders do otherwise?  

I am confused by the rest.  Do you believe in God? Because you seem to be mocking Him and His ways here. 

You seem to be confusing "teachers" and "leaders", etc. with "masters".

 

  

The primary song "Follow the prophet" very much bothers me.  Our devotion should be to principles of goodness, not to human leaders.  Everyone should be encouraged to think - research responsibly - question - I do not see this happening in the LDS church.  

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6 minutes ago, changed said:

The primary song "Follow the prophet" very much bothers me.  Our devotion should be to principles of goodness, not to human leaders.  Everyone should be encouraged to think - research responsibly - question - I do not see this happening in the LDS church.  

This describes the old "democracy vs a republic" discussion.

I'd rather deal with God's chosen representatives than what the majority concludes about God.

And your deification of the attributes of God over the being reminds me very much of the Brigham vs Orson debates of the 1860s.  A fascinating series of sermons.

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On 2/10/2019 at 4:29 PM, changed said:

The primary song "Follow the prophet" very much bothers me.  Our devotion should be to principles of goodness, not to human leaders.  Everyone should be encouraged to think - research responsibly - question - I do not see this happening in the LDS church.  

 
Patrick Mason has an interesting take on this song:

“But if I could change the Primary songbook, I would start by tweaking one tiny little thing—and all it would take would be one capital letter. Rather than droning on about how they should follow the prophet because ‘he knows the way,’ I wish my kids—and all our Primary kids—would sing about following the prophet because ‘he knows the Way.’

I don’t follow the prophets because they know the way. I follow the prophets because—and insofar as—they know the Way. Human prophets are only worth following when they point toward the Way, the Truth, and the Life. I follow them as apostles—messengers and witnesses—of the Lord Jesus Christ. I follow their lead, because they lead me to God. In actuality, it’s not really the prophets at all that I am following. I am responding to Christ’s invitation to follow him, and doing so in the company of fellow disciples, some of whom have been specially called by him to help lead the pack in our collective journey.”

https://rationalfaiths.com/follow-the-prophet-redux/

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2 hours ago, Rivers said:
 
...

I don’t follow the prophets because they know the way. I follow the prophets because—and insofar as—they know the Way. Human prophets are only worth following when they point toward the Way, the Truth, and the Life...

 

The problem I see here is that you can't know beforehand if the prophets know the "W/way" unless you follow what the prophets tell you to do. You may be "inspired" to do otherwise and go ahead and follow that prompting,  but in doing so you are joining the ranks of those who oppose "Divine authority".

 

Think of the hard time all those who disagreed with Elder McConkie's stand on the Afro-Americans must have had, in and out of the Church, to name one example, stand that proved to be wrong...

Edited by amo

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1 hour ago, amo said:

The problem I see here is that you can't know beforehand if the prophets know the "W/way" unless you follow what the prophets tell you to do. You may be "inspired" to do otherwise and go ahead and follow that prompting,  but in doing so you are joining the ranks of those who oppose "Divine authority".

 

Think of the hard time all those who disagreed with Elder McConkie's stand on the Afro-Americans must have had, in and out of the Church, to name one example, stand that proved to be wrong...

It is possible to gain a testimony that the prophet knows the Way and still disagree him at times.

We are not expected to follow as blind sheep before we can gain a testimony.  We are expected to prayerfully follow as the spirit directs.

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