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bsjkki

MWEG and their lack of a statement standing up for life

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You are in a fertility clinic on fire. There is a six month old baby in next to a freezer that contains 1000 human embryos. There is only time to take one or the other. Which do you choose? How many embryos would it take before you would take the fridge over the baby? 

What if your beloved family dog was unconscious by the freezer? Which would you take?

Edited by SeekingUnderstanding
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1 minute ago, The Nehor said:

From what I have seen this group mostly focuses on the federal level and general issues like climate change and overseas famines. It would be more odd if they did speak out on one singular specific state issue.

So, no, it does not speak volumes unless someone has itching ears and really want it to say that but that says more about them then the organization.

I disagree with you. This  issue is being debated in New York, Virginia, Rhode Island and New Mexico. We are having a “national” conversation about this issue with dueling headlines across media. I can agree to disagree with you on this.

 

15 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Yes, and if there were legislation to limit abortion to the relatively rare cases the church allows I would support that legislation. If there was legislation requiring a complete ban in all cases I would oppose it.

After all, I completely agree with this statement.

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1 hour ago, Gray said:

Good thing abortion has nothing to do with killing babies then.

Please clarify what is growing in the female uterus before "first breath"?  

Using word games to justify the killing of innocent life is just science denial. 

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21 minutes ago, bsjkki said:

I disagree with you. This  issue is being debated in New York, Virginia, Rhode Island and New Mexico. We are having a “national” conversation about this issue with dueling headlines across media. I can agree to disagree with you on this.

 

After all, I completely agree with this statement.

Yeah, debated on the state level. I have seen relatively little in the National news about it but maybe I get my news from different sources.

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2 minutes ago, snowflake said:

Please clarify what is growing in the female uterus before "first breath"?  

Using word games to justify the killing of innocent life is just science denial. 

Is a spontaneous miscarriage death? Even if it occurs within days of fertilization? Was there a spirit child of God in there? If so, shouldn’t we put money into preventing these spontaneous miscarriages? A lot of people like to claim life begins at conception but do not live like they do. They just worry about the deliberate ending of that life. If it happens naturally they ignore it. We do not treat those who are born this way. We research ways to keep them alive.

I am opposed to abortion in general but I do not feel obliged to believe that it is the moral equivalent of murder.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

Cases where this would threaten the life of the mother are relatively rare but they do happen.

It would be interesting to know the stats on how often it happens.

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1 hour ago, bluebell said:

It would be interesting to know the stats on how often it happens.

National news today: 

According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, abortions after 21 weeks make up less than 1.3% of all abortions in the United States. This means that abortions that occur beyond 24 weeks make up less than 1% of all procedures.

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2 hours ago, bluebell said:

So the medical reason is that the life of the mother is at stake, not that the baby is not viable, like you said.    But still, in late term abortions (which is the topic that bjs is talking about), if the mother's life is at stake, why would killing the fetus be medically necessary when it could instead be delivered

Just that scenario was recently discussed by someone in the public eye, and the far right had a conniption fit about it.

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2 hours ago, bsjkki said:

I think my views are more in line with church teachings than what you are implying the church believes based on the quote by President Nelson I already posted. Here is a quote by President Oaks from his October 2018 conference talk.  

“Third, mortal life is sacred to us. Our commitment to God’s plan requires us to oppose abortion and euthanasia.”

The church permits abortion under certain circumstances. If they thought fetuses were babies they surely wouldn't take that position.

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2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Gray...A semantics issue but one that I’m curious about, not looking for debate but understanding of the other side:

i hear that some people believe life occurs at first breath.  They say there is not life in the womb.  Of course what is in the womb we all must agree is living, because it moves at will and grows .  I assume pro lifers see this figure somewhere between a plant and a person, a plant grows but this figure has blood and digestion. Is this anywhere near accurate? 

If life is at breath, what is different about the figure at breath vs in the womb? Is it soul? 

Is life synonymous with having a soul?

I will only thank you for your answer and not try to debate. 

 

That said,  I don’t think we can know what MWEGs position is until they say one way or another. 

People try to make hard line distinctions, but mother nature doesn't operate that way. For the first fourteen days after fertilization, there are zero cells formed that will make up the future baby. Yet pro life people have a problem with the morning after pill.

I don't personally think life has something to do with breath - we know now that fetus' take in oxygen in other ways. So there are no easy answers, but women, as American citizens, have the right to self-determination over their own bodies.

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

Please clarify what is growing in the female uterus before "first breath"?  

Using word games to justify the killing of innocent life is just science denial. 

Blastocyst, an embryo, then a fetus. None of those is the same thing as a baby. Words mean things.

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13 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

National news today: 

According to the US Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, abortions after 21 weeks make up less than 1.3% of all abortions in the United States. This means that abortions that occur beyond 24 weeks make up less than 1% of all procedures.

Does it have stats for late term abortions that compare the number that occurred with the number that occurred because the mother's life was threatened?  That's the stat that I think would be interesting to know.  I've read personal stories of women who have had late term abortions but they have always been from the point of view of "my doctor said the baby was going to die anyway and I didn't want to bring them into the world only to live for a short time because it seemed cruel."

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1 hour ago, snowflake said:

In most states when a pregnant woman is killed, the perp is charged with a double murder....Science tells us as well... that it is a tiny human.

Your scientific foundations are as shaky as your legal foundations. In no state is abortion considered murder, and embryos are not considered babies in the biological sciences.

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2 minutes ago, Gray said:

People try to make hard line distinctions, but mother nature doesn't operate that way. For the first fourteen days after fertilization, there are zero cells formed that will make up the future baby. Yet pro life people have a problem with the morning after pill.

I don't personally think life has something to do with breath - we know now that fetus' take in oxygen in other ways. So there are no easy answers, but women, as American citizens, have the right to self-determination over their own bodies.

Thank you for sharing your point of view.  It makes sense you would feel the way you feel based on what you think. 

I thought you’d said something about breath earlier so it helps to understand this. 

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3 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Does it have stats for late term abortions that compare the number that occurred with the number that occurred because the mother's life was threatened?  That's the stat that I think would be interesting to know.  I've read personal stories of women who have had late term abortions but they have always been from the point of view of "my doctor said the baby was going to die anyway and I didn't want to bring them into the world only to live for a short time because it seemed cruel."

I took the stat from a CNN article this am.  For what that is worth to anyone, here is a link.  I don’t think it offers the detail you were looking for.  ****I’m neither for nor against this article or news source*****

https://apple.news/AuIhzVnU4TMCejKiVu4Xr2A

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6 minutes ago, Gray said:

The church permits abortion under certain circumstances. If they thought fetuses were babies they surely wouldn't take that position.

The church does not view fetuses as babies, but similar to how most states view endangered animals (such as how, because it is illegal to kill Eagles, it is also illegal to harm an eagle egg because the state recognizes the relationship between an unborn eagle and a born one, for example), they recognize that you can't harm a fetus without impacting the baby to come.

That is why, even in cases of rape, incest, or risk to the life of the mother, the church still does not teach that abortion is always acceptable.  It teaches that it may be acceptable, if someone has prayed and believes that God condones it in their specific instance.

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5 minutes ago, Gray said:

Your scientific foundations are as shaky as your legal foundations. In no state is abortion considered murder, and embryos are not considered babies in the biological sciences.

Snowflake is referring to state laws that charge someone (besides the mother usually) who kills a fetus with murder, the same thing they would be charged with if the baby had already been born.  It's one of the weird ways that some U.S. laws are sexist.  A mother is allowed to decide to kill her fetus with no repercussions but if the father decided to do it, then in many states he would go to prison.

 

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51 minutes ago, Gray said:

Blastocyst, an embryo, then a fetus. None of those is the same thing as a baby. Words mean things.

fetus

 noun
fe·tus | \ ˈfē-təs  \

Definition of fetus

 

: an unborn or unhatched vertebrate especially after attaining the basic structural plan of its kindspecifically : a developing human from usually two months after conception to birth
 

fetus

 [fe´tus] (L.)
the developing young in the uterus, specifically the unborn offspring in the postembryonic period, which in humans is from thethird month after fertilization until birth.
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44 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Snowflake is referring to state laws that charge someone (besides the mother usually) who kills a fetus with murder, the same thing they would be charged with if the baby had already been born.  It's one of the weird ways that some U.S. laws are sexist.  A mother is allowed to decide to kill her fetus with no repercussions but if the father decided to do it, then in many states he would go to prison.

 

This recently happened in Florida, a disgruntled ex-boyfriend slipped an abortion pill into his ex-girlfriends drink.....she lost the child and he was charged with murder. It's this simple, if the mom doesn't want the child...you can kill it....if she does want it and someone else kills it, it's murder.....perfect sense! 

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-charged-tricking-girlfriend-abortion-pill-article-1.1346447

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1 minute ago, snowflake said:

This recently happened in Florida, a disgruntled ex-boyfriend slipped an abortion pill into his ex-girlfriends drink.....she lost the child and he was charged with murder. It's this simple, if the mom doesn't want the child...you can kill it....if she does want it and someone else kills it, it's murder.....perfect sense! 

https://www.nydailynews.com/news/national/man-charged-tricking-girlfriend-abortion-pill-article-1.1346447

The problem is you are letting Florida define things. Always a mistake.

Edited by The Nehor

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59 minutes ago, Gray said:

Your scientific foundations are as shaky as your legal foundations. In no state is abortion considered murder, and embryos are not considered babies in the biological sciences.

Everyone and I mean everyone knows that a fetus turns into a baby.....ask any physician, biologist or parent. 

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3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

The problem is you are letting Florida define things. Always a mistake.

Yes....those Floridians...idiot judges.....don't know the difference between a fetus and a baby.........not nearly as educated as us! LOL! 

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5 hours ago, Gray said:

The scriptures don't consider a fetus to be a "living human being." 

“God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them” (Genesis 1:27)

“Be fertile and multiply” (Genesis 1:28)

“Behold, said he, thou art with child, and thou shalt bring forth a son: and thou shalt call his name Ismael, because the Lord hath heard thy affliction.” (Genesis 16:11)

“And Isaac besought the Lord for his wife, because she was barren: and he heard him, and made Rebecca to conceive. But the children struggled in her womb…” (Genesis 25:21-22)

“In the womb he supplanted his brother, and as a man he contended with God.” (Hosea 12:3)

“But when Rebecca also had conceived at once of Isaac our father. For when the children were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil (that the purpose of God according to election might stand) . . .” (Romans 9:10-11)

“Truly children are a gift from the Lord; the fruit of the womb is a reward” (Psalm 127:3)

“You knit me in my mother’s womb . . . nor was my frame unknown to you when I was made in secret” (Psalm 139:13,15)

 “You have been my guide since I was first formed . . . from my mother’s womb you are my God” (Psalm 22:10-11).

“God… from my mother’s womb had set me apart and called me through his grace” (St. Paul to the Galatians 1:15)

“They mingled with the nations and learned their works…They sacrificed their sons and their daughters to demons, and they shed innocent blood, the blood of their sons and their daughters, whom they sacrificed to the idols of Canaan, desecrating the land with bloodshed” (Psalm 106:35, 37-38)

“Thou shalt not kill” (Exodus 20:13, Deuteronomy 5:17)

“Do unto others as you would have them do to you” (Matthew 7:12)

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