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nuclearfuels

How to reconcile Hagoth and the Heartland Theory?

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Based on what inspired leaders of the church have stated concerning Hagoth (https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/15-hagoth-and-polynesians-0), I'm having trouble seeing how to reconcile this with the Heartland theory (North America = Book of Mormon lands).

Hagoth sailing north from the East  coast of the US doesn't lead to Polynesia.

THen again, from the time the JAredites arrived, say 3100 BC (https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-control.php/publications/transcripts/I00028-The_Years_of_the_Jaredites.html), up through 420 AD, I imagine teh Book of Mormon people spread throughout probably Polynesia as well as North, Central and South Americas - not as teh only people there but intermarrying with the other existing tribes adn groups of people, for 3500 years, suggesting the Heartland and Central America theories might both have some degree of accuracy, no? 

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How to reconcile Hagoth and the Heartland Theory?

You can't, along with many other unsolvable issues the heartland theory brings up.
The border by the West Sea is where Nephi and Lehi and their party landed. If the West Sea is one of the Great Lakes,  how did Lehi get to it from Asia?
There is no evidence of the vast civilizations that existed in the Book of Mormon.
Although there are some interesting parallels the heartland theory has with Book of Mormon Geography, people mostly use the heartland theory to reconcile the location of the Hill Cummorah as it is called today.

I tend to agree with Hugh Nibley when he said:
"Book of Mormon geography is a waste of time. I wouldn't touch it with a forty-foot pole. Never have; it's not necessary."
(Hugh W. Nibley, "Lecture 18: 2 Nephi 3-8," in Teachings of the Book of Mormon: Transcripts of lectures presented to an Honors Book of Mormon Class at Brigham Young University 1988-1990, Vol. 1)

 

 

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4 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Based on what inspired leaders of the church have stated concerning Hagoth (https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/15-hagoth-and-polynesians-0), I'm having trouble seeing how to reconcile this with the Heartland theory (North America = Book of Mormon lands).

Hagoth sailing north from the East  coast of the US doesn't lead to Polynesia.

THen again, from the time the JAredites arrived, say 3100 BC (https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-control.php/publications/transcripts/I00028-The_Years_of_the_Jaredites.html), up through 420 AD, I imagine teh Book of Mormon people spread throughout probably Polynesia as well as North, Central and South Americas - not as teh only people there but intermarrying with the other existing tribes adn groups of people, for 3500 years, suggesting the Heartland and Central America theories might both have some degree of accuracy, no? 

Hagoth's ships sailed up the coast of the West Sea, and we do have some linguistic evidence of Nephites in California (Brian Stubbs).

There is a lot of interchange going on, not all of which, and maybe not most of which, need be attributed to Hagoth.  Moreover, with typical tribal endogamy, we need not suppose that everyone is mixing with everyone else.  Certainly not on a hemisphere-wide basis.  Archeology tells us that Mesoamerican culture was transferred into the Arizona desert (in the Gila and Salt River area) at a late date.  And we have the Huasteca instance.  The existence of such enclaves tells us that endogamy was dominant.  We also know that foreign ruling elites would frequently come into city-states and rule (the Toltecs in Yucatan, for example).  These were, however, within limited areas.  The Book of Mormon proper takes place within an area nearly as small as Palestine.  We know that due to the specific distances mentioned in the text.

In addition, we have in the Amazon some people who apparently came from Austronesia, and we have much evidence of contact between South America and Polynesia (see Heyerdahl, American Indians in the Pacific).  These have nothing to do with the BofM.

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10 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

I imagine the Book of Mormon people spread throughout probably Polynesia as well as North, Central and South Americas

We can't ignore the evidence that Polynesians came from Taiwan, and before that, mainland Southeast Asia. There's nothing to support the claim that Polynesians came from the Americas, and before that, Jerusalem. 

5 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Hagoth's ships sailed up the coast of the West Sea, and we do have some linguistic evidence of Nephites in California (Brian Stubbs).

Hagoth's ships were large enough to hold hundreds of people with supplies. Is there any evidence of shipbuilding in Mesoamerica?

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3 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

We can't ignore the evidence that Polynesians came from Taiwan, and before that, mainland Southeast Asia. There's nothing to support the claim that Polynesians came from the Americas, and before that, Jerusalem. 

You are speaking to the genetic evidence, Rajah, which makes up the larger gene pool.  At the same time, we have lots of evidence of contact between Polynesia and the Americas.  A good example, is the cultigen kumara "sweet potato, yam" (Ipomoea batatas), which is known by the same name in both South America and Polynesia -- before Columbus.  J.G. Hather and Patrick Kirch, “Prehistoric sweet potato (Ipomoea batatas) from Mangaia Island, Central Polynesia,” Antiquity 65/249 (December 1991):887-893, DOI: 10.1017/S0003598X00080613, online at https://www.researchgate.net/publication/279667381_Prehistoric_sweet_potato_Ipomoea_batatas_from_Mangaia_Island_Central_Polynesia .

Quote

Hagoth's ships were large enough to hold hundreds of people with supplies. Is there any evidence of shipbuilding in Mesoamerica?

The ships would likely have deteriorated long ago, but we know that Mesaomericans had very large boats, because they were observed by the Spanish.  The Isthmus of Tehuantepec has two large lagoons on the Pacific Coast, surrounded by large forests (J. Sorenson saw that as "Bountiful," just like the one in the Old World).  Ships could easily be built and launched from there.  Ideal for Hagoth.

Edited by Robert F. Smith
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1 hour ago, Robert F. Smith said:

You are speaking to the genetic evidence, Rajah, which makes up the larger gene pool.  At the same time, we have lots of evidence of contact between Polynesia and the Americas.  A good example, is the cultigen kumara "sweet potato, yam" (Ipomoea batatas), which is known by the same name in both South America and Polynesia -- before Columbus. 

More recent studies argue that sweet potatoes drifted across the Pacific 100,000 years ago.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/sweet-potatoes-might-have-arrived-polynesia-long-humans

I agree it is possible that Polynesians reached the Americas during the Book of Mormon time period, and there is some evidence to support it. However I haven't seen much evidence to support the claim that Native Americans sailed across the Pacific independent of the Polynesians and their technology. The identification of native American DNA on Easter Island was something I felt could have been strong evidence for it, but that has since been shown to be post-Columbian admixture.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/science/2017-10-13/who-were-the-ancient-easter-islanders/9040266

As you know, I'm not arguing that Polynesians aren't related to the Hagoth narrative. There's textual evidence in the 1st century Periplus of the Erythraean Sea of an unidentified people sailing from the east to the west in massive ships. A 3rd century text called Strange Things from the South says these ships could hold 600-700 people and 260-1000 tons of cargo. These are the only ships during the Book of Mormon time period that match the Hagoth account. 

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13 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

We can't ignore the evidence that Polynesians came from Taiwan, and before that, mainland Southeast Asia. There's nothing to support the claim that Polynesians came from the Americas, and before that, Jerusalem. 

Hagoth's ships were large enough to hold hundreds of people with supplies. Is there any evidence of shipbuilding in Mesoamerica?

You do know that trade winds blow from east to west 24/7 365 days a year. That would be about from 20 degrees north latitude to 20 degrees south latitude. That varies during the seasons. The westerlies are up in the Roaring forties. The itcz separates the north from the south there's basically no wind there except for squalls. There is a countercurrent at the equator. The current on either side of it runs from east to west. I just wanted to throw that out there.

Edited by rodheadlee
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On 2/2/2019 at 8:59 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Based on what inspired leaders of the church have stated concerning Hagoth (https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/book-mormon-alma-testimony-word/15-hagoth-and-polynesians-0), I'm having trouble seeing how to reconcile this with the Heartland theory (North America = Book of Mormon lands).

Hagoth sailing north from the East  coast of the US doesn't lead to Polynesia.

THen again, from the time the JAredites arrived, say 3100 BC (https://publications.mi.byu.edu/pdf-control.php/publications/transcripts/I00028-The_Years_of_the_Jaredites.html), up through 420 AD, I imagine teh Book of Mormon people spread throughout probably Polynesia as well as North, Central and South Americas - not as teh only people there but intermarrying with the other existing tribes adn groups of people, for 3500 years, suggesting the Heartland and Central America theories might both have some degree of accuracy, no? 

I do not personally believe Joseph F's proclamation that the Polynesians are Hagoth's people. Remember, many if not most of the people left on foot. However, the idea that Polynesians are directly related to the Heartland theory so-called, I do not believe can be supported. 

I do believe that Polynesians beat Columbus to the Americas by far. They clearly reached Easter Island by 1000 AD. There is simply no reason not to believe that many missed that tiny speck in the ocean, and hit "the wall" of S. America. There is some reasonable evidence that they still reside in S. America - both linguistic and archaeological. There is also some evidence that some who reached America sailed back to Pacific Islands with sweet potato and other products.  

Does any of this mean that the story of Hagoth is untrue? Certainly not - only that it has been misinterpreted. Of course if Central America is the land of the Book of Mormon, then I think it would be reasonable to believe that at least some Polynesians may have something to do with Hagoth.... i just don't believe that it can be reasonably connected to the heartland theory. I have a very different belief about that, which I believe has at least some archaeological support ie chronological support.

I believe the story of the Jaredites is more correctly placed in the mid-late third millennium BC. I think 3100 BC would  place the Jaredites before Noah, who didn't live until the mid third millennium BC, if one accepts scripture as it presently reads. Rod Meldrum has promoted the belief that the Nephites introduced Haplogroup A into the Americas, but has not successfully presented any scientific evidence for that. While it is possible that some Nephites had haplogroup A mtDNA, I think that is difficult to support at present. It is, however, more likely that Jaredites may have introduced some haplogroup A, although at present scientific evidence seems to clearly show that it preexisted the Jaredites in the Americas at least by 6000 years. Nevertheless, we still do not know much about genetics, and mutation rates. It appears that some male DNA mutates much faster than mtDNA, so we are placing some supposition based on accuracy of C14 samples, etc.

Do I believe the BoM people spread? Yes, I do. How much is unclear to me, but I do not believe they filled the Americas to form all the Native American peoples or Polynesians. I am by no means saying that Polynesians are not related to Israel, but I believe there are other people  whom Christ appeared to besides the Jews and the Nephites, and to try to include all the Americas and Oceania in the BoM is imho not accurate nor reasonable fwiw.

 

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9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

More recent studies argue that sweet potatoes drifted across the Pacific 100,000 years ago.

https://www.sciencenews.org/article/sweet-potatoes-might-have-arrived-polynesia-long-humans 

The question is, why do they have the same name in both places?

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

I agree it is possible that Polynesians reached the Americas during the Book of Mormon time period, and there is some evidence to support it. However I haven't seen much evidence to support the claim that Native Americans sailed across the Pacific independent of the Polynesians and their technology.

There are cases even today, in which boats will drift from Mexico to the Marshall Islands -- https://www.academia.edu/26520117/Ancient_Japanese_Culture_in_South_America , a summary which points out also that Japanese Jomon pottery and Japanese DNA  (and a retrovirus) show up in Valdivia, Ecuador, thousands of years ago..

Quote

“The largest ever genetic study of native South Americans identified a sub-population in Ecuador with an unexpected link to eastern Asia. The study, published in PLOS Genetics, concluded that Asian genes had been introduced into South America sometime after 6,000 years ago — the same time the Jomon culture was flourishing in Japan.”   https://heritageofjapan.wordpress.com/just-what-was-so-amazing-about-jomon-japan/ways-of-the-jomon-world-2/travel-jomon-style/transoceanic-contact-between-ecuador-east-asia-and-the-migration-of-people-bearing-c3-genes/ .

 

9 hours ago, Rajah Manchou said:

..........................................
As you know, I'm not arguing that Polynesians aren't related to the Hagoth narrative. There's textual evidence in the 1st century Periplus of the Erythraean Sea of an unidentified people sailing from the east to the west in massive ships. A 3rd century text called Strange Things from the South says these ships could hold 600-700 people and 260-1000 tons of cargo. These are the only ships during the Book of Mormon time period that match the Hagoth account. 

 

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Maybe it can’t be reconciled. Perhaps the BoM is a symbolic record and not actually historical.

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On 2/2/2019 at 8:34 PM, Rajah Manchou said:

We can't ignore the evidence that Polynesians came from Taiwan, and before that, mainland Southeast Asia. There's nothing to support the claim that Polynesians came from the Americas, and before that, Jerusalem. 

Hagoth's ships were large enough to hold hundreds of people with supplies. Is there any evidence of shipbuilding in Mesoamerica?

If Hagoth went to the southwest to the polynesian islands he'd have found them already inhabited. I don't want to dismiss out of hand the Hagoth speculation tied to polynesians, especially given polynesian self-identity and Pres. Kimball's comments. However at best this is again a small group mixing in with an already extant large group.

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28 minutes ago, clarkgoble said:

If Hagoth went to the southwest to the polynesian islands he'd have found them already inhabited. I don't want to dismiss out of hand the Hagoth speculation tied to polynesians, especially given polynesian self-identity and Pres. Kimball's comments. However at best this is again a small group mixing in with an already extant large group.

It could also be a situation where a nonexistent group mixed with an already extant large group.

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17 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It could also be a situation where a nonexistent group mixed with an already extant large group.

snarkiness... plus, 3 points. (I'm sure Clark Goble never thought of your valuable, original, and unique insight)

Edited by Steve J
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36 minutes ago, cinepro said:

It could also be a situation where a nonexistent group mixed with an already extant large group.

Certainly. And my own bias is that the sailors of Hogoth have nothing to do with polynesia but it's a tradition that takes a life of its own because of Kimball. I'm just saying that even if Hogoth actually went to the southwest transoceanic voyage rather than the more probable Caribbean canoe voyage that there were already people there given the date of Hogoth. Or for that matter that Hogoth simply died. 

That said I don't think the Kimball interpretation is completely implausible. There's no hard evidence for it but as others have noted the currents go in the right direction.

Edited by clarkgoble

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There were people saying Polynesians came from Hagoth before Spencer W. Kimball did.

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