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Masonry essay on the church website

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8 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I hear and feel you on this one. It was a huge stumbling block for me as well. I went to Fairmormon about 8 or so years ago and corresponded with Greg Smith, an LDS apologist, I saved his emails even. But what he said didn't quit relieve my struggle. Have you tried asking Fairmormon? Maybe they could be of some help. I know that if your journey has been like mine it is a ride like no other and difficult to get off. Bless you and hope you get some answers. 

I honestly don't think SMD1976 is here looking for answers or even for discussion.

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10 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

I quit my job to search for answers CA Steve, so why don't you give me some answers if you're so smart?

Best answer I could suggest is look for another job.

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1 hour ago, CA Steve said:

I honestly don't think SMD1976 is here looking for answers or even for discussion.

You are right. Hopefully they'll do more thorough research and dig deeper to come around to less black and white thinking. I remember that spot. I suggest they stick around since this board is well aware of the warts in the church. But don't see them quite as severely. And do have some answers/facts to seeing these warts with context.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, SMD1976 said:

I quit my job to search for answers CA Steve, so why don't you give me some answers if you're so smart? 

What was your job that you couldn't also search for answers to theological questions?  Presumably you had lunch breaks and time off in the evenings and for a day or two each week; was that not enough time? 

I guess there was a time where you could wander the back roads looking for enlightenment like Caine in Kung Fu (and helping people along the way), but honestly it's really all online now so you just need access to the internet.

And are you telling me that after dedicating yourself full-time to the quest, that's the best understanding you have of the LDS view of "becoming like God"? I mean, you could probably find 20 really good articles online that explain the concept, with scriptures, and it wouldn't take you more than an hour to get through it and have a really good understanding of where the Mormon doctrine on this comes from.  You might not agree with it, but at least you'd know what it's all about.

Edited by cinepro
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52 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

this world isn't about jobs, its about truth.  if you really search, the truth is out there.  when i was active in the church, i remember how they told me I wasn't "allowed" to look at any material regarding the church that wasn't from them.  I wasn't allowed to verify what the mormons were teaching me?  Maybe i'm just too skeptical, but when somebody tells me not to look at anything else, I ask myself, "are they hiding something'?  is that so crazy?  because if the church is "true" like they beat into your head time after time, then what is there for you to fear?    As people, we inherently have our pride and ego; we don't think we can be fooled, I didn't think Satan could fool me, I underestimated his power and demons. 

 

CFR please. Its a rule that if someone Calls For References you need to back it up with a reference. So a polite CFR, I use to say things like you but then people asked me to back it up. Do you have any recent statements? I'd like to know, if so.

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Posted (edited)
16 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

sure Tacenda, how about this for a reference? 

https://religionnews.com/2019/01/03/major-changes-to-mormon-temple-ceremony-especially-for-women/

If Joseph Smith was really a prophet, and really spoke with god, and restored the truth in full, as you believe, why did the church change the temple ceremony significantly in 1990, and now they are changing it again according to the above article.  But I guess that FULL RESTORATION TO THE TRUTH, wasn't quite full, joe smith's temple ceremony had to be changed twice, he screwed it up!  so which temple ceremony is correct?  the one before 1990?  between 1990-2019? or the new one they came out with?  this Joseph SMith really had trouble communicating with God it looks like, he didn't get it right the first time.  or am I wrong again? cause i'm just using logic

You may not want to have a dialogue with me since as you said you came to speak to the faithful.  I'm not in that category since a faith transition. But this is a board with some pretty outstanding LDS/Non-LDS.

Be careful, this board is addictive. And please be respectful. I learned the hard way, been banned plenty of times, but was able to return, thank goodness. ETA: Where in this article is a statement to only read church approved information?

Edited by Tacenda

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2 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

Cinepro, if i'm wrong with my interpretation of mormon doctrine, please correct me, and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Don't mention there are tons of scriptures that prove me wrong, yet you don't mention any of them?  very convenient of you.  and don't quote mormon "scripture"; as I don't recognize that as scripture, but if the bible shows i'm wrong, i'll buy you a car

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Emphasis on even as

Cinepro enjoy your car

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18 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

so how does that verse say you can be a God?

It is a commandment from Jesus Christ to be "even as He is"

 

Quote

But some people can't wrap their head around God being greater than man,

I do not know of a single member of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints who thinks they will be equal (let alone greater) than God.  We will in eternity worship God and be mindful of His superiority over us. We might in a far distant future beable to create like he has, that does not mean or never has meant being greater than he is. 

Of course you already know this. You just spit out your hateful, anti-LDS, condescending,  rhetoric for your own prideful purposes.

 

Quote

so mormons are perfect and gods?  interesting

Please be more comprehensive in your reading skills. CFR where one single person on this board has said that "mormons are perfect and gods?" You will not be able to find one, but only yourself. Thus, you are criticising us for your ill perceived notions of what you think we believe.  

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4 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

Cinepro, if i'm wrong with my interpretation of mormon doctrine, please correct me, and I'll admit I'm wrong.  Don't mention there are tons of scriptures that prove me wrong, yet you don't mention any of them?  very convenient of you.  and don't quote mormon "scripture"; as I don't recognize that as scripture, but if the bible shows i'm wrong, i'll buy you a car

Revelation 21:7 King James Version (KJV)

7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

What does "inherit all things" mean to you?

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SMD, what "given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness" and "might be partakers of the divine nature" mean to you?

Quote

3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:

4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

 

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Posted (edited)
6 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

Revelations 21:7, clearly states he "WILL BE YOUR GOD"; so how can you be a God, if you have a God

Is Jesus God?

https://biblehub.com/john/20-17.htm

Edited by Calm

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9 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

you didn't say where the other scripture quote is from, so i'm not commenting on a source that isn't quote

My apologies, I got careless assuming you were familiar with the Bible enough.

2 Peter 1:3-4

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Posted (edited)
7 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

i'm sorry, did i say i memorized the bible?  great comeback though... but it doesn't say anything about you becoming God, not even remotely, not close at all...just that you'll be rewarded in heaven... doesn't say youll be God at all, not even close... explain how you can interpret that?  just like if you lost your job, but you were a good son, and your earthly father said, its cool, come live with us, all that is mine is yours... does that make you Father of the home?  is your name on the title of the house now?  are you God of the house and can kick your father out, cause your god, and god doesn't answer to anybody

What does divine nature mean to you?  Heaven or God himself?

It was not a comeback, but a clumsy explanation of why I was lazy about identification.  I had to look it up myself, only remembered the phrase, not the whole verse and I understand others use different translations which may not say it the same way.  So I am not familiar enough with the Bible to identify what verse it was.  Nothing wrong with that, I hope.

Edited by Calm

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11 minutes ago, SMD1976 said:

Satan said that though, Eve eat this fruit, you will become like God... sounds like Calm ate a couple dozen pieces of satans fruit, ate the whole fruit basket... but its a nice thought, you'll be God!!!! tons of wives!!! your own planet!!! probably a S class mercedes benz 2020 model, fully loaded as well...its going to be awesome for you... couldn't be the same lie he told Eve at the beginning of the world, why would satan recycle his material?  even if its one of his most successful tools?  

That is not what I believe or was taught (though as kids we speculated about having our own planets, I see it as a childish interpretation of God's promise to be one with him) and all you have done is show you don't know my beliefs, so why should I pay attention to you?

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9 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

I quit my job to search for answers CA Steve, so why don't you give me some answers if you're so smart?  Why do the mormons preach you can become a god?  equal to my Heavenly Father, seems like another blasphemy to me, mormons don't respect or worship God, why should they, they view him as a peer, or inferior, since they may be "god's" boss one day? i mean it sounds nice, what's better than being God oneday?  most people (think rock stars, actors, etc.) satan has to give truck full of money to, to get them to follow him and worship him.  With the mormons, its the opposite, they pay to worship Satan, really breaks my heart. 

Show me one place in the bible that supports that doctrine of becoming a God?  after reading the bible dozens of times, I found where Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, if she ate the fruit she could become like God.  ZERO other mention of us becoming God.  To me, it seems like mormons are falling for Satan's very first lie. He didn't even have to re-write his play book, just went to his "greatest hits", you fell for the same fruit that Eve did, kinda embarrasing right? he didn't have to work hard to fool you CA Steve, but isn't life easier if you dont question things? just go along with what you were born into?  I mean the all seeing eye of satan in front and center on the SLC temple, if you put a cross on the building, the building would get hit by lightning with only the cross surviving. I call all mormons to repent of their blasphemy, and embrace the love of Jesus Christ.  Beg him in prayer that he will forgive you for practicing witchcraft, using satans powers and calling them the "priesthood"?  

Many major world religions believe in some type of exaltation to "godhood," or at least obtaining, and/or rising to a higher state.

Doesn't sound so far fetched to me.

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10 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I hear and feel you on this one. It was a huge stumbling block for me as well. I went to Fairmormon about 8 or so years ago and corresponded with Greg Smith, an LDS apologist, I saved his emails even. But what he said didn't quit relieve my struggle. Have you tried asking Fairmormon? Maybe they could be of some help. I know that if your journey has been like mine it is a ride like no other and difficult to get off. Bless you and hope you get some answers. 

Not everyone at FAIR thinks the same way on the issue. I've not worked with FAIR in ages, but back when I did I tended to view Masonry rather differently from others responding with emails.

3 hours ago, SMD1976 said:

that verse, Revelations 21:7, clearly states he "WILL BE YOUR GOD"; so how can you be a God, if you have a God? a King doesn't have a King,...

Sub-Kings were rather common in the Ancient Near East. So for instance Zedekiah was King of Judea but was installed by Nebuchadnezzar who was king over him. When Zedekiah didn't submit to Zedekiah then the Babylonians came in and destroyed the kingdom.

The relationship between Jesus and the Father is of course complicated historically (ignoring Mormon views for the moment). The ontological conception of the trinity is one way but there are obviously a lot of ways to interpret things especially the passage in places like John speaking of the divinization of the saved.

 

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On 2/2/2019 at 3:31 PM, Storm Rider said:

No, all of the people I worked with on living endowments and others I have been with during their first endowment appeared as individuals that could understand English and not a single one ever left the session or commented afterward, "Dang, I should have had an attorney review this contract before putting put into the position of signing off on it."  

Haters are going to hate and then there is everyone else having a good time. Cheers

I understand that this is probably given in humor, but just in case anyone tries to seriously take this position:
 

1) What´s the likelihood that anyone that genuinely felt uncomfortable with the endowment would suddenly be fine with making such a statement afterward to the very people who, by their actions, seemed to have no problem with it?

2) Haters are going to hat but everyone else cannot be assumed to be a part of the party - there are those who don´t say anything and simply never return or even go inactive. If only there were stats for how many never return or how many go inactive within months of endowment.

3) The changes to the penalties would seem to indicate that some were uncomfortable, were not written off as simply ¨haters¨, and whose discomfort or inactivity was strong enough to make changes to a revealed sacred ceremony.

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13 hours ago, Anijen said:

Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.

Emphasis on even as

Cinepro enjoy your car

It'll probably be a used Yugo.

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@SMD1976 wrote:

Quote

 

I quit my job to search for answers CA Steve, so why don't you give me some answers if you're so smart?  Why do the mormons preach you can become a god?  equal to my Heavenly Father, seems like another blasphemy to me, mormons don't respect or worship God, why should they, they view him as a peer, or inferior, since they may be "god's" boss one day? i mean it sounds nice, what's better than being God oneday?  most people (think rock stars, actors, etc.) satan has to give truck full of money to, to get them to follow him and worship him.  With the mormons, its the opposite, they pay to worship Satan, really breaks my heart. 

Show me one place in the bible that supports that doctrine of becoming a God?  after reading the bible dozens of times, I found where Satan tempted Eve in the Garden of Eden, if she ate the fruit she could become like God.  ZERO other mention of us becoming God.  To me, it seems like mormons are falling for Satan's very first lie. He didn't even have to re-write his play book, just went to his "greatest hits", you fell for the same fruit that Eve did, kinda embarrasing right? he didn't have to work hard to fool you CA Steve, but isn't life easier if you dont question things? just go along with what you were born into?  I mean the all seeing eye of satan in front and center on the SLC temple, if you put a cross on the building, the building would get hit by lightning with only the cross surviving. I call all mormons to repent of their blasphemy, and embrace the love of Jesus Christ.  Beg him in prayer that he will forgive you for practicing witchcraft, using satans powers and calling them the "priesthood"?  

 

Since all of SMD's content has been deleted (except for quotes appearing in others' posts), I doubt he/she/it will be responding to anything.  But perhaps a new sockpuppet will arise, like a Phoenix, from the ashes! :D

And his/her/its posts in this thread were actually rather off-topic, so perhaps we should just let them be.  But I just had to comment that his/her/its posts seemed to come from the point of view of a caricature, rather than of a former long-term member.  Although Alma 12:11 does say something about it: "And they that will harden their hearts, to them is given the lesser portion of the word until they know nothing concerning his mysteries..."

I say "he/she/it" because I don't really know if the person behind the posts is male, female, or a automated process.

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On 2/1/2019 at 11:35 AM, Tacenda said:

I was asked to make covenants without knowing what the covenants were but told before the session started that I could leave if I felt like I couldn't make those covenants. So how was I to know if it wasn't something I'd like to do? Terrible way to go about something, even in a contract you sign you go in knowing the details, something wrong with this picture. I wonder if the church will change the temple so much that one day they'll give members the information before they have to make those unseen covenants.

I’ve heard that before and I’m highly critical of it. The covenants made are nothing new. They are really the same thing you covenant at baptism and what you answer during the recommend interview. The only thing you promise besides those is to not share them outside the temple. And even that can’t possibly be new to most people. 

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