"Why some people leave the Church"

[Bernard Gui 6,021]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

And I was with God yesterday while spending time with my family up in the beautiful mountains near my home.  I was a better man for it too.

And I was with God while visiting dear friends who have had tragedy strike their family. We should do more things to be with God, not fewer. We would all be better people.

Edited February 10 by Bernard Gui

[ALarson 4,954]

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

This sounds more defensive than anything else.

Not at all.  Just pointing out that one does not have to be inside the temple to be with God.  

5 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

I strongly doubt that your wonderful time spent with your family was spiritually edifying

You could not be more wrong.  Many of the times when I'm with my beautiful family are the moments when I feel the spirit the strongest and am most spiritually edified.  I also feel the same way about being out in nature....so when I can combine the two, it's a very spiritual experience for me.

I understand that's not the same for everyone.

Edited February 10 by ALarson

[Tacenda 3,406]

12 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

These things - temple recommends, temple ordinances, etc., - should never be construed to mean that an individual is guaranteed to enter the Celestial Kingdom. They have never meant that nor is that their purpose. A disciple of Jesus Christ seeks to draw closer to him. We do that by striving to emulate him, follow his teachings, do what he commands us to do. Why do we believe so strongly in baptism? To fulfill his command and to emulate him. Temple ordinances fulfill the same purpose. 

We do nothing in the Church of Jesus Christ that allows us to achieve one thing and then are able to sit back and coast. To be a disciple of Jesus Christ is to hunger after him, to have an eye single to his glory and to the presence of the Holy Spirit in our lives. 

Temples are literally houses of the Lord. In the temple we make sacred covenants, or promises, with God that are necessary for us to be with Him in the highest degree of heavenly glory (see D&C 131:1–4). These temple covenants lead to the great blessings available through Jesus Christ.

[Storm Rider 5,600]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Temples are literally houses of the Lord. In the temple we make sacred covenants, or promises, with God that are necessary for us to be with Him in the highest degree of heavenly glory (see D&C 131:1–4). These temple covenants lead to the great blessings available through Jesus Christ.

Agreed and nothing you have stated conflicts with what I have stated.

[bluebell 21,096]

50 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Temples are literally houses of the Lord. In the temple we make sacred covenants, or promises, with God that are necessary for us to be with Him in the highest degree of heavenly glory (see D&C 131:1–4). These temple covenants lead to the great blessings available through Jesus Christ.

Yes, going to the temple and receiving the blessings available within give us access or lead us to exaltation.  But they do not guarantee exaltation.  The doctrine of the church is clear, ordinances must be ratified (for lack of a better word) by the Holy Spirit before they have any power.

[Hamba Tuhan 7,655]

4 hours ago, ALarson said:

And I was with God yesterday while spending time with my family up in the beautiful mountains near my home.  I was a better man for it too.

Great! 

[Stargazer 4,584]

5 hours ago, ALarson said:

And I was with God yesterday while spending time with my family up in the beautiful mountains near my home.  I was a better man for it too.

Gosh, yes. Mountains.

There was a period of time in my life when I could not qualify for a temple recommend.  My life was a bit of a mess: newly divorced and broke. I took a week off work and went up to Mount Rainier National Park to do some solo camping.  I spent three days on a solitary trail leading up to Eagle Peak, across a valley from the massive volcano, always visible through the trees.  On the second day at mid morning I broke from the upward hike near a running stream, and having eaten a Mountain House beef stroganof meal, I leaned back against a tree and read in the Ensign magazine.  Minutes later I started hearing odd noises, as if someone were sneaking up on me in the brush.  I turned my head and spied a deer fawn, followed by its mother, as they strolled slowly under the trees.  The same sound assailed me from the other side, and I turned my head in that direction and saw another doe/fawn pair moving in the same direction as the other two.  Astonished, I watched as they strolled along ignoring me until they went out of sight.  By the afternoon, I had climbed to an alpine meadow and in full sight of Mount Rainier I sat on a ridgeline and read out loud the entire D&C 76.  That section caused my  heart to soar! That evening, after setting up my tent on my chosen campground, I sat at the edge of a hundred foot high cliff near some bushes and watched the sun go down.  Suddenly I was surrounded by a large flock of little birds who swooped in, out and around the bushes for several minutes before moving on.  One or two of the little birds perched on one of the bush twigs and looked at me curiously, as if they had never before seen such a big, flightless bird.  I was a changed man upon my return from this little adventure.  I would break out in smiles at odd times, whenever I thought back on that glorious hike.  It was a pivotal time in my life.  I love the mountains!

And do you know what?  Having recently been called to be temple workers in the London Temple, my wife and I now get to have a similar experience nearly every week!  Climbing the mountain of the Lord's house.

Oh, by the way, my wife loves mountains, too!  Here we are in the Austrian Tyrol last year:

Edited February 10 by Stargazer

[Hamba Tuhan 7,655]

2 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Gosh, yes. Mountains ...

That section caused my  heart to soar! ...

Having recently been called to be temple workers in the London Temple, my wife and I now get to have a similar experience nearly every week!  Climbing the mountain of the Lord's house.

Exactly. I'll second mountains and the ability to feel close to God in them. And wilderness in general. There's a river crossing not too far from my house that was a favourite of our young men when I was serving as Young Men president. We would walk about 10 minutes downstream to a shady rock pool to swim and swing off a rope someone had hung in one of the trees, to play water rugby across a shallow section, to build fires with wood and then, often, as we sat in the warm glow, to build fires of faith and testimony. I have so many memories that I could share! For example, I remember kneeling in the cool sand one Saturday evening with three boys who, determined to fast for their very first times, had asked me to join with them and show them how it was done. One of those young men is now wrapping up his mission. The other two both served, and one of them was sealed to his wife last month. I also remember our tradition of heading to the same spot after General Priesthood Meeting each April and October, to swim and toast marshmallows ... and the evening when one of the boys who had stepped away from the fire to dress, spontaneously began singing 'The Spirit of God' in the inky darkness, and without thinking, we all joined in, a single chorus of praise and gratitude on the banks of a muddy river. I think every heart must have soared like mine!

At the same time, if I want to hear the voice of God distinctly or feel cleansed from all unrighteousness, it's far more likely to occur in the temple for me. It's a privilege I wouldn't trade for anything else in the world.

I like taking an 'all of the above' approach, and I'm happy for others to obtain revelation and correction and sanctification where- and however they can.

[Calm 28,978]

7 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I strongly doubt that your wonderful time spent with your family was spiritually edifying...

I think that contradicts what the Church teaches in general.

For example:

Quote

Families are as diverse as individuals. The activities they do together vary, but one thing is true for all of them: as President Dieter F. Uchtdorf said, “In family relationships love is really spelled t-i-m-e,time.”1 Whether family members get together for scheduled outings, sharing interests, or serving others, these gatherings strengthen relationships that can be eternal. The families below share what they’ve learned about making time together a priority

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/07/t-i-m-e-spells-love?lang=eng

If eternal impact, seems to me there has to be a spiritual quality involved.

From a Priesthood manual, family activities are part of bringing the Spirit into family bonds, the first example used was going skiing yearly:

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/home-and-family-relations/lesson-14-having-fun-together-as-families?lang=eng

Edited February 10 by Calm

[Tacenda 3,406]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think that contradicts what the Church teaches in general.

For example:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/07/t-i-m-e-spells-love?lang=eng

If eternal impact, seems to me there has to be a spiritual quality involved.

From a Priesthood manual, family activities are part of bringing the Spirit into family bonds, the first example used was going skiing yearly:

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/home-and-family-relations/lesson-14-having-fun-together-as-families?lang=eng

I'll never forget telling my dad how much I loved our boating/camping trips. It was a reoccurring statement that I told my dad through the years, along with my siblings. With all of the siblings together, my mom piped up, for the first time ever, and said that dad had it easy. He would call her and tell her that after work he wanted to go boating/camping and it was her who gathered the items and food in order to go! We all felt very bad that we gave him that credit and left our poor mom out of the praise. But I'm glad she finally stuck up for herself. We were all older and had families before she finally said something. 

I do think it's so important to play, those that play together stay together!

Edited February 11 by Tacenda

[Storm Rider 5,600]

1 hour ago, Calm said:

I think that contradicts what the Church teaches in general.

For example:

https://www.lds.org/ensign/2011/07/t-i-m-e-spells-love?lang=eng

If eternal impact, seems to me there has to be a spiritual quality involved.

From a Priesthood manual, family activities are part of bringing the Spirit into family bonds, the first example used was going skiing yearly:

https://www.lds.org/manual/duties-and-blessings-of-the-priesthood-basic-manual-for-priesthood-holders-part-b/home-and-family-relations/lesson-14-having-fun-together-as-families?lang=eng

Would you quantify a difference between personal prayer and spending time with your family?  You are conflating building eternal relationships by spending time with family and personal growth by spending time conversing with God. I equate prayer with attending the temple. Obviously, I must be completely off base given the responses to my previous statement.

[MustardSeed 319]

Some people (well, members of the church if Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints) use the word “spiritual” to describe Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints events/Holy Ghost experiences .  

I think of the word spiritual much more broadly, and indeed my most spiritual experiences in my life have been at work.  

I have had spiritual experiences at church too but much of the moving things I’ve felt at church have to some large degree have been emotional.  Many have been indeed spiritual.  

When I miss church I miss more than spiritual experiences.  I miss the connection and routine to my identity as a member of the church.  That cannot be replicated in nature.  But absolutely nature is a spiritual place for me too! 

[Tacenda 3,406]

4 hours ago, Stargazer said:

Gosh, yes. Mountains.

There was a period of time in my life when I could not qualify for a temple recommend.  My life was a bit of a mess: newly divorced and broke. I took a week off work and went up to Mount Rainier National Park to do some solo camping.  I spent three days on a solitary trail leading up to Eagle Peak, across a valley from the massive volcano, always visible through the trees.  On the second day at mid morning I broke from the upward hike near a running stream, and having eaten a Mountain House beef stroganof meal, I leaned back against a tree and read in the Ensign magazine.  Minutes later I started hearing odd noises, as if someone were sneaking up on me in the brush.  I turned my head and spied a deer fawn, followed by its mother, as they strolled slowly under the trees.  The same sound assailed me from the other side, and I turned my head in that direction and saw another doe/fawn pair moving in the same direction as the other two.  Astonished, I watched as they strolled along ignoring me until they went out of sight.  By the afternoon, I had climbed to an alpine meadow and in full sight of Mount Rainier I sat on a ridgeline and read out loud the entire D&C 76.  That section caused my  heart to soar! That evening, after setting up my tent on my chosen campground, I sat at the edge of a hundred foot high cliff near some bushes and watched the sun go down.  Suddenly I was surrounded by a large flock of little birds who swooped in, out and around the bushes for several minutes before moving on.  One or two of the little birds perched on one of the bush twigs and looked at me curiously, as if they had never before seen such a big, flightless bird.  I was a changed man upon my return from this little adventure.  I would break out in smiles at odd times, whenever I thought back on that glorious hike.  It was a pivotal time in my life.  I love the mountains!

And do you know what?  Having recently been called to be temple workers in the London Temple, my wife and I now get to have a similar experience nearly every week!  Climbing the mountain of the Lord's house.

Oh, by the way, my wife loves mountains, too!  Here we are in the Austrian Tyrol last year:

Cute photo of the two of you Stargazer, I knew you before you met her, haha. Well kind of!  

Wanted to share this pic of a man's face in the mountains that I thought was cool, it was taken at Lone Peak Mountain in Utah. 

[flameburns623 784]

On 2/10/2019 at 12:20 PM, Tacenda said:

Temples are literally houses of the Lord. In the temple we make sacred covenants, or promises, with God that are necessary for us to be with Him in the highest degree of heavenly glory (see D&C 131:1–4). These temple covenants lead to the great blessings available through Jesus Christ.

My BODY is a House of the Lord, within which I make sacred covenants. 

[pogi 5,277]

On 2/10/2019 at 5:49 PM, Storm Rider said:

Would you quantify a difference between personal prayer and spending time with your family?  You are conflating building eternal relationships by spending time with family and personal growth by spending time conversing with God. I equate prayer with attending the temple. Obviously, I must be completely off base given the responses to my previous statement.

I think that both personal prayer and family time are essential aspects of becoming edified and one with God.  We can't leave one or the other undone and pretend like we can be edified in the one or the other.  There is a definite spiritual yin and yang relationship between introverted prayer and extroverted relationships.  You all probably know by know that I practice meditative prayer for 20 minutes twice daily.  That time for introspection and intimacy with God is beyond edifying for me. But one thing that I have found is that all of my praying is useless unless I apply in life what I am inspired to do in prayer.  My life then becomes an extension of prayer.  My life is prayer.  How I form relationships with others becomes a form of prayer to God.  Introspection and meditative prayer teaches me how to be a better person on the outside, a better husband, and a better father.  I am edified in God through those righteous relationships.  That is the point of prayer.  We go inward to better live outward.  Our lives become a prayer to God.  That is how we fulfill the commandment to "pray always".

I will share one powerful lesson that I remember from one specific prayer.  I was meditating on being one with God.  Without going into much detail about the experience, which was beyond powerful, I received the personal revelation that if I want to be one with God, I first have to be one with my wife.  I can't explain to you adequately how that revelation, and subsequent revelations on how to become more at one with my wife, has affected my relationship with both my wife and my God.  Our familial union and oneness draws me closer to God and we are edified together. 

I can't really quantify a difference between personal prayer and family relationships.  To me, it is all a form of prayer, and it is all edifying. 

Edited February 14 by pogi

[2BizE 22]

On 2/4/2019 at 11:41 AM, Robert F. Smith said:

Sorry, 2BizE, but sociological research has shown consistently over many years that social reasons are the most common source of religious switching.  Very few people concern themselves with church history, and sexual abuse and sexism are not major issues of the LDS faith (as they definitely are for the Roman Catholic Church).  LDS leaders are generally held in high trust by most members of the Church.  If you have actual scholarly sources which say otherwise, please clue me in.  Thanks.

Try this article and study.  Yes, there is a comprehensive, scholarly study...

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/12/4-myths-about-ex-mormons/

[Tacenda 3,406]

13 minutes ago, 2BizE said:

Try this article and study.  Yes, there is a comprehensive, scholarly study...

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/12/4-myths-about-ex-mormons/

Thanks for bringing this up! Read it earlier today and was glad that people can see for themselves that there are misconceptions on why people leave the church.

[Storm Rider 5,600]

31 minutes ago, pogi said:

I think that both personal prayer and family time are essential aspects of becoming edified and one with God.  We can't leave one or the other undone and pretend like we can be edified in the one or the other.  There is a definite spiritual yin and yang relationship between introverted prayer and extroverted relationships.  You all probably know by know that I practice meditative prayer for 20 minutes twice daily.  That time for introspection and intimacy with God is beyond edifying for me. But one thing that I have found is that all of my praying is useless unless I apply in life what I am inspired to do in prayer.  My life then becomes an extension of prayer.  My life is prayer.  How I form relationships with others becomes a form of prayer to God.  Introspection and meditative prayer teaches me how to be a better person on the outside, a better husband, and a better father.  I am edified in God through those righteous relationships.  That is the point of prayer.  We go inward to better live outward.  Our lives become a prayer to God.  That is how we fulfill the commandment to "pray always".

I will share one powerful lesson that I remember from one specific prayer.  I was meditating on being one with God.  Without going into much detail about the experience, which was beyond powerful, I received the personal revelation that if I want to be one with God, I first have to be one with my wife.  I can't explain to you adequately how that revelation, and subsequent revelations on how to become more at one with my wife, has affected my relationship with both my wife and my God.  Our familial union and oneness draws me closer to God and we are edified together. 

I can't really quantify a difference between personal prayer and family relationships.  To me, it is all a form of prayer, and it is all edifying. 

Said another way, you are stating that personal prayer is the same as spending time with your family.  I don't see any activity replacing personal prayer and I think it is a mistake to attempt to make them equivalents. My only point is that there is unique about personal prayer (and attending the temple) and spending time in nature or with family. I see each of these activities as easily capable of bringing us closer to God, but one does not, cannot, replace any of the others. 

[pogi 5,277]

4 minutes ago, Storm Rider said:

Said another way, you are stating that personal prayer is the same as spending time with your family.  I don't see any activity replacing personal prayer and I think it is a mistake to attempt to make them equivalents. My only point is that there is unique about personal prayer (and attending the temple) and spending time in nature or with family. I see each of these activities as easily capable of bringing us closer to God, but one does not, cannot, replace any of the others. 

I agree that one can’t replace the other.  They are both essential.  In fact, I made that point when I said that we can’t leave one undone and expect to be edified in the other.  They are two sides of the same coin.  The one is an extension of the other.

[Jeanne 3,607]

33 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Thanks for bringing this up! Read it earlier today and was glad that people can see for themselves that there are misconceptions on why people leave the church.

I loved this  Thank you!!  Sometimes I get so tired of the why did you leave question.  One day...I was asked and just said I offended everybody....😄

[Robert F. Smith 14,379]

5 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Try this article and study.  Yes, there is a comprehensive, scholarly study...

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/12/4-myths-about-ex-mormons/

I carefully read that study and found that what I had told you remained true:

Quote

Sorry, 2BizE, but sociological research has shown consistently over many years that social reasons are the most common source of religious switching.  Very few people concern themselves with church history, and sexual abuse and sexism are not major issues of the LDS faith (as they definitely are for the Roman Catholic Church).  ....................................................

You need to read the actual study and look at the stats, as I did.

[Tacenda 3,406]

Jeanne: "I loved this  Thank you!!  Sometimes I get so tired of the why did you leave question.  One day...I was asked and just said I offended everybody....😄"

🤣

 (I highly doubt that, if there is ever a time I'm asked, I've got to use this. But for now, still in limbo.)

Edited February 14 by Tacenda

[Calm 28,978]

7 hours ago, 2BizE said:

Try this article and study.  Yes, there is a comprehensive, scholarly study...

https://religionnews.com/2019/02/12/4-myths-about-ex-mormons/

Where is canard?  I want his analysis of the data collecting methodology.

https://thenextmormons.org/methodology/

[Gray 6,105]

On 2/10/2019 at 5:04 PM, Hamba Tuhan said:

Exactly. I'll second mountains and the ability to feel close to God in them. And wilderness in general.

I feel the same. In the Biblical record, the prophets often go to the mountains or wilderness to feel communion with God.

[Tacenda 3,406]

1 hour ago, Gray said:

I feel the same. In the Biblical record, the prophets often go to the mountains or wilderness to feel communion with God.

To me weekly attendance in church can hurt some people's spirits. Sure we can go to the mountains on a Saturday, but a break from church is good for the soul. Speaking as an inactive though, I still have memories of going to church and being depressed afterwards and longing to be in nature instead. It's no wonder that people like two hour church, or it's no wonder when people are a little excited when church is cancelled. Sometimes a church vacation can be good and make oneself seek their own communion. 

Edited February 14 by Tacenda