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Duncan

"Why some people leave the Church"

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Calm I don’t have any scientific digits for you.  Is that the requirement here, to state an observation? 

Im a systems scientist, it’s the language I use, it’s what I observe, and if we disagree that’s fine.  I don’t understand why it’s debatable.  Mormons are known inside and outside to be exclusionary. The trust in an lds community is higher than in society at large. (No digits for that either.)  The elevated trust creates a level of exclusive bond which makes for a closed system. 

I suspect this is a semantics issue.  I’m stumped as to the discord.  

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2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Birchtal (sp) of the documentary should never have been a temple worker.  Some repentance processes need to require more than others.  

He will have hell to pay. Trust me. 

Berchtold has abused at least 7 girls that we know of. In 2004 he attended a women's conference that his victim Jan Broberg Felt was speaking at. He showed up and wanted one of the biker gang dudes that help with child abuse efforts to pass out literature and the biker said he had to read it first. And then Berchtold got in his van and tried to run him over! Here is the article: https://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/women-s-conference-interrupted-by-former-kidnapper/article_deb2ccd1-7d09-5e1f-b52d-9d5710f408f6.html He doesn't seem like he should have been a temple worker to me.

 

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I don’t need my veil workers, my bishops, my church president to be any more perfect than I am. We are all just people. 

this guy though?  Dangerous. 

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38 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Calm I don’t have any scientific digits for you.  Is that the requirement here, to state an observation? 

Im a systems scientist, it’s the language I use, it’s what I observe, and if we disagree that’s fine.  I don’t understand why it’s debatable.  Mormons are known inside and outside to be exclusionary. The trust in an lds community is higher than in society at large. (No digits for that either.)  The elevated trust creates a level of exclusive bond which makes for a closed system. 

I suspect this is a semantics issue.  I’m stumped as to the discord.  

To state something as a fact or given, anyone can require a CFR or documentation.  You want to state something as your personal experience or opinion, no CFR required.

It is not a closed system if I understand the definition of a "closed system" given we are constantly, eargerly inviting people to join us.

The " discord" on my part is due to the implications of assuming a "closed system" socially speaking.  Images of Amish communities (who btw do allow converts, though it is rare; they do not proselyte) and such are likely what most people think of when thinking "closed social system" and that is just not an accurate template for what typical happens in LDS culture.

You also appear to see the cohesion as something unusual in human society, when it is not as far as I can tell from research.  Yes, it is a tight knit culture, but we also have the unusual feature of high missionary work and service to the surrounding communities so it leads to a greater interaction with noncommunity leaders than many social systems people would define as "closed".  Our members work and live in the context of the greater society.  Vast majority of members allow TV, internet, and all other forms of communication in their homes.  Unusual cases of withdrawal from greater society appears to me to be more family dynamics than Church cultural dynamics, the Church is only used as a context for the withdrawal.  If the Church was absent, another cause would likely be chosen...such as any number of political contexts.

And btw, labeling disagreement as "discord" is, imo, dismissive.  I tend to prefer precision in discussion if claiming facts.  I will disagree with those who claim the Church is highly inclusive as much as those who define it as a "closed system".

Edited by Calm
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My bad.  It is my Opinion that the culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which I am a willing card carrying member of, fits the definition that I have of a closed system.    

Systems theory definition of a closed system:
Open boundary systems allows elements and situations outside the organization to influence it. It may even welcome external influences. Closed boundary systems isolate its members from the environment and seems isolated and self-contained. No system is completely closed or completely open. 
Berchtold got away with too much because of a closed system, both within the family and within the church 40 years ago.  While much has changed, it is “my opinion” that too much remains the same.  That opinion comes from observation of my ward families, my personal family, my friends, their wards, the news, and my profession that deals directly with all of it. We cannot change the human tendencies but we can balance it with education and Free Discussion which is proving to be rather laborious here. 
Edited by MustardSeed

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10 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

Thanks. I was wondering about a letter or the like read in the various congregations. A lot of people do not check into a lot of the stuff there.

Glenn

An email was sent out on the Church's member list.  That was how I found out about it.

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Calm I apologize for making you feel dismissed by using the word discord. 

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2 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

My bad.  It is my Opinion that the culture of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints, which I am a willing card carrying member of, fits the definition that I have of a closed system.    

Systems theory definition of a closed system:
Open boundary systems allows elements and situations outside the organization to influence it. It may even welcome external influences. Closed boundary systems isolate its members from the environment and seems isolated and self-contained. No system is completely closed or completely open. 
I am not a fan of this type of discussion. It’s exhausting and neither of us are learning anything useful.  

What type of discussion?  Debate?  This is the wrong board if you think it is just to allow people to state their ideas without being challenged on them.

And the above definition would appear to agree with my description more than yours since I pointed out the external influences of missionary and service work.

Even in Utah with its very unusual Church population density, the Church culture is not significantly self contained, as evidenced by the use of public schools and many community activities (no one checks Church membership in any of the kids' activities my grandkids are involved in after school) even though much social activity occurs through Church avenues. The Church encourages its members to get out and get involved in the greater community.  It encourages higher education.  It also encourages families and individuals to create homes and wards that are refuges from immoral influences, but how this is done is left pretty wide open except for extremes such as porn.

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1 minute ago, MustardSeed said:

Calm I apologize for making you feel dismissed by using the word discord. 

I don't, I am just pointing out to assume emotion as the motivator of comments is not helpful to having actual discussion or in exploration of others' opinions and knowledge.  As a long time participant here, I have noticed conversations end up most informative (imo of course) when people don't assume someone is being contentious or emotional, focusing on actual content and the implications of such.

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Ok.  I agree with you. The church is very involved in the world, and we do missionary work .  We get excited about baptisms and want people to join us.  We are open to serving people who are not like us, and we are open to people becoming one of us. 

Im exhausted because of don’t think you are at all interested in hearing me, or understanding. 

 

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21 minutes ago, Calm said:

This is the wrong board if you think it is just to allow people to state their ideas without being challenged on them.

Sometimes it seems that people here just debate because they are bored and need the stimulation of a good or bad debate.  This feels like a weak debate because I think we are talking about two different things, to be honest. I suspect you just don’t know or have any interest in what I’m talking about.  There is no way. I can’t be that far off. 

Edited by MustardSeed

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41 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Sometimes it seems that people here just debate because they are bored and need the stimulation of a good or bad debate.  This feels like a weak debate because I think we are talking about two different things, to be honest. I suspect you just don’t know or have any interest in what I’m talking about.  There is no way. I can’t be that far off. 

And your purpose for posting is?

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1 minute ago, Calm said:

your purpose for posting is?

Tacenda was upset by the documentary. I wanted to validate her experience and also offer an explaination and a solution to what happened to that family. I believe that our tendency to “keep it in the (ward) family” be it business, or healing, or justice, has been and remains an issue. 

Im posting because I believe I have a point of view that is inclusive to people who are on their way out and people who are firmly in.  I like to think I can make a difference.  I also post to be part of a community that can provide answers to questions I occasionally have.  I don’t want to lurk without contributing . 

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30 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

and also offer an explaination and a solution to what happened to that family.

That family appears to be an extreme case as well as something that occurred 35 years ago which was a significantly different culture in many ways (communication options have expanded greatly, so has the general culture willingness to discuss child abuse though there are still the problems that may be inherent to the crime as abuse often carries guilt and shame not just created by the predator, but often by the victim...possibly in an attempt to feel in control).  Solutions based on extreme cases are not as effective or useful imo as ones based on a more common experience. 

The Church can definitely improve the way it communicates in terms of abuse.  The move to promoting abuse helplines is great as is improving the effectiveness of the hotline and annotation process.  I am hoping the next step will be opening up the hotline officially and not just unofficially.  There are several policies the Church allows to be shared by word of mouth that need, imo, to be made official and/or easily accessed.

Edited by Calm
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Editing out what sounds dramatic to instead say, I see that you aren’t going to accept my point if view on this so we will just proceed with our own valid experience of the open/closed nature of our religions culture and the impact of such.  Onward. 

Edited by MustardSeed

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20 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Editing out what sounds dramatic to instead say, I see that you aren’t going to accept my point if view on this so we will just proceed with our own valid experience of the open/closed nature of our religions culture and the impact of such.  Onward. 

I am curious as to what you mean by "accept my point of view".  If you mean you have had different experiences that you see your local ward(s) was typically more closed than open, I am in no way challenging this.  There will be variations dependent on local greater community (such as a country's culture), local family involvement (there are areas dominanted by longtime families who typically hold leadership callings), environment issues (such as poverty), and probably a host of other things that make each ward culture unique in details, even as it shares many qualities with the rest of the wards of the Church.

If you mean what appeared to me as a global statement about Church culture, I disagree that all interpretations are equally valid and studies/research are definitely going to be more persuasive to me than people's personal opinion or anecdotes.

Edited by Calm
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2 hours ago, Calm said:

An email was sent out on the Church's member list.  That was how I found out about it.

That is a problem because  not all members actually get those emails. I get some but I think gmail may send some to my spam folder. Did this email ask the bishops and branch presidents read it in a Sacrament meeting?

Glenn

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4 minutes ago, Glenn101 said:

That is a problem because  not all members actually get those emails. I get some but I think gmail may send some to my spam folder. Did this email ask the bishops and branch presidents read it in a Sacrament meeting?

Glenn

I appear to have deleted my own copy, so I don't know.  I will ask around.

I know there are many who don't get the emails, I can't even remember if I signed up or it just started coming to my email due to it being listed for my membership.

Edited by Calm
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I’m not a master debater lol 😆 

I have observations that go beyond my ward boundaries.  I think we have a more closed system and that there are way more safe options outside the religion available to people to glean resources they need than is perceived. 

That is my opinion.  What else is there to debate?  

Edited by MustardSeed

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Found this:

https://www.lds.org/church/news/new-church-website-provides-hope-and-healing-for-victims-of-abuse?lang=eng

Not the email/letter I am talking about obviously (not a bishop :P ), but I thought interesting info:

Quote

Abuse.lds.org is just one of several recent efforts from the Church to prevent, identify, and respond to abuse.

In a March 26 letter, the First Presidency encouraged Church leaders to reach out in love to assist those suffering from abuse: “This global issue continues to be of great concern to us today. Our hearts and prayers go out to all those who are affected by this serious problem.”

Accompanying the letter was a resource document updating guidelines for how bishops and stake presidencies counsel victims of sexual abuse and how they conduct interviews with Church members. (Read the four new important policy statements.)

Recently the Church also launched “Protect the Child,” a video outlining the responsibilities of ward and branch councils for preventing child abuse, updated the Gospel Topics page on abuse, and joined in signing the Safe Children Initiative for Utah Faith Leaders.

 

Edited by Calm
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Another relevant article.  I like that donations bring attention and therefore increase reporting:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865653138/LDS-Church-outlines-how-it-prevents-child-sexual-abuse-makes-donation.html

Quote

Sister Oscarson also presented $25,000 to the 25-year-old Children's Justice Center program administered by the Utah Attorney General's Office. The LDS Church gave that program $100,000 a year ago, and a program leader said news stories about that donation motivated a welcomed spike in reports of abuse.

"The power goes above and beyond the financial contribution," said Suzanne Mitchell, executive director of the Children's Justice Centers of Salt Lake County. "Just as impactful is the awareness, the signal to the community and to the children that it's OK to come forward and not suffer in silence."

She said she has prepared her staff to handle additional calls. The program provides child-friendly atmospheres at 22 centers across the state where investigators and caseworkers interview abused children to help them begin to heal and to prosecute abusers. Mitchell said the new donation will mean the difference between remote children's justice centers being able to help a family or not.

Looks like it is a yearly donation, description of the Children's Justice Centers is encouraging:

https://www.deseretnews.com/article/865678248/Mormon-women-leaders-give-120000-to-Childrens-Justice-Center-in-Salt-Lake-Valley.html

Edited by Calm
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That is awesome. I love the good that the Church does in the world.

 

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