"Why some people leave the Church"

[Teancum]

2 hours ago, Storm Rider said:

I think you are saying that they have a towering intellect incapable of being bamboozled by nonsense. Nothing offensive there. 

No that is not what I said.

People are fooled all the time.  Religious history certainly demonstrates this.😎

Edited February 1, 2019 by Teancum

[Teancum]

On 1/29/2019 at 12:20 AM, JLHPROF said:

I can agree with this.

Which leads to the follow up questions - what do people expect from a religion and what do they expect from God?

What does "works for them" mean?

For me personally I have come to the point that I believe strong supernatural claims need strong evidence. Feelings don't work for me.  President Eyring of BYUI said in a recent talk that as a law intern he had run into challenging info from a co worker on the BoA.  So he decided to call his GA father and ask him about it. Surely his father would have answers to refute the critic. When he called the now President Eyring of the FP his father simply asked if his son had read the BoA.  His son said yes.  Dad asked how his son had felt.  His son said good.  His father the asked so what else do you need to know.

Recently the church has tried to address the sticky issues. There is the Renlund fireside, a talk by Elder Corbridge of the 70 and others. Mostly they paint the person who leaves as lazy and seeking the easy path.  Elder Rendlund even called them indolent and lazy scholars. And then there is always the feelings people had when they gained a testimony.  This should trump everything I guess.  It does not work for me. Perhaps it works for some.  And it seems the church is doubling down on this tactic. I expect honesy and openess and not skim milk abd pablum along with an effort to marginalize those who have honestly examined the truth claims and the evidence for them and found them lacking.  I expect this from an organization that demands my time, money,total devotion and making it the center of all me and my family do.

The church does not earn this type of fealty from me any more.  That could change. I am open to it.  But not currently and the current trend is not helping me.

[MustardSeed]

I admit as a card carrying rule following high participation member it drives me nuts when we  sit in Sunday class and disparage folks for inactivity or for leaving or for sin.  We tsk tsk Laman and Lemuel rather than exercising verbally looking inward and taking accountability for our own rebellion and in my mind THAT is what’s lazy. 

[Teancum]

On 1/29/2019 at 2:36 PM, bluebell said:

Isn't there a prophecy about the last days and how even the elect will be deceived?  (Sincere question. I can't remember but it sounds familiar).

Well yes.  But these are good thnings to put in "scripture" to help keep people in line and in the pews.

[bluebell]

47 minutes ago, Teancum said:

Well yes.  But these are good thnings to put in "scripture" to help keep people in line and in the pews.

If the people who were writing down the scripture didn’t believe it was true, why would they care how many people were in the pews?  

[Robert F. Smith]

7 hours ago, Teancum said:

Do you have stats to back this up?

Yes, and I quoted them twice already on this thread.

[Robert F. Smith]

4 hours ago, Teancum said:

................................

People are fooled all the time.  Religious history certainly demonstrates this.😎

P. T. Barnum and all that?

[california boy]

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the people who were writing down the scripture didn’t believe it was true, why would they care how many people were in the pews?  

There is a scripture for every side of every argument.  There are scriptures people use prophesizing church growth and church shrinkage.  Scriptures that say you should get married and scriptures that say marriage is for only the weak.  Scriptures saying that murder is sometimes righteous and sometimes the worst sin a person could commit.  Need I go on?  

Honestly, I can't see how anyone can use scriptures as some kind of test for truthfulness when there is so much contradiction found in them.  Hence, thousands of churches using the same exact scripture with completely different beliefs and doctrine.

[carbon dioxide]

9 hours ago, california boy said:

Like I said.  Some people are able to navigate through some of these issues.  Others are not.  They look at all of the paintings the church commissioned with Joseph actually using the Gold Plates to translate and find those representations deceiving as to what actually took place.   They ask themselves, would a church of God use deceit in portraying its history?  For them, the answer is no and they leave.  For you, you don't consider it deceitful, so you stay and continue in your belief.  No one should fault either group.

Ok but I will fault people who for whatever reason think that artwork or painting is equivalent to a high definition picture from a camera.  One could easily find any painting of a historical event and find flaws or misrepresentations in the painting.  It is common in astronomy for artists to make picture of black holes and other things that they have not seen.  They are simply painting an idea but I am sure if one compared their paintings to real image of a black hole, (if we ever get one) there probably will be some big differences the artist got wrong.  The church has some pictures of events in church history to at least bring a person's mind closer to the event but the pictures have never been presented at 100% accurate. Anyone who lets this stuff bother them are looking for things to bother them.  They are not being reasonable in my mind. 

[Tacenda]

I'm having a terrible day with feeling positive about the church. Last night I listened to a podcast https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/278-to-win-at-all-costs-the-lds-church-and-its-heartless-legal-machine-craig-vernon/ with attorney Craig Vernon. He made a statement that made a lot of sense and would be so easy and probably eliminate all of the problems the church is having with people suing because the church gets in the middle of it. Mr. Vernon asked, why don't the leaders of the church get up in church and state that every member should call law enforcement if they are or have ever been harmed/abused, not go to the bishop. How easy can it get than this?!?!

He mentioned that there was a case with a YW's leader that was approached by a young woman in her class that her dad was sexually abusing her. And the YW's leader knew to go to the bishop just as it is outlined in the Handbook 2 guidelines. Then in Handbook 1 it tells the bishops to call the helpline. So nothing about the police.

Then I recently watch the Netflix documentary with Jan Broberg called "Abducted in Plain Sight", who was kidnapped twice by a friend of the family. And nothing was really ever done to her captor. He spent 19 days in jail. He was LDS as well as Jan's family. The man that did it was Robert E. Berchtold, but he died in 2005, and according to his obituary he had served in the Las Vegas temple just prior to his death. And I wonder how this could be. I'm shocked! He sexually abused the young Jan Broberg over and over. How can this be?!? Wasn't there a notation on his record anywhere? The obituary now has been shortened to not include those things any longer, but there are witnesses that know he served in the temple and in a bishopric I believe. I don't have any references as of yet.

Craig Vernon also made a comment about Sam Young who got ex'd for speaking for the youth not having one on one interviews with bishops/couselors because of the real danger of something going wrong. And then Vernon said, but then we have an MTC president that admitted to sexually abusing a couple of women and he hasn't been ex'd. So definitely something wrong here. 

These are things that make a person really want to leave. When is the church going to do what Vernon has suggested, when are they going to do the morally correct thing?

Edited February 2, 2019 by Tacenda

[california boy]

3 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

Ok but I will fault people who for whatever reason think that artwork or painting is equivalent to a high definition picture from a camera.  One could easily find any painting of a historical event and find flaws or misrepresentations in the painting.  It is common in astronomy for artists to make picture of black holes and other things that they have not seen.  They are simply painting an idea but I am sure if one compared their paintings to real image of a black hole, (if we ever get one) there probably will be some big differences the artist got wrong.  The church has some pictures of events in church history to at least bring a person's mind closer to the event but the pictures have never been presented at 100% accurate. Anyone who lets this stuff bother them are looking for things to bother them.  They are not being reasonable in my mind. 

Hmm. OK.  Looks like you have worked through this issue.   I am glad it works for you.  

[JLHPROF]

5 hours ago, california boy said:

There is a scripture for every side of every argument.  There are scriptures people use prophesizing church growth and church shrinkage.  Scriptures that say you should get married and scriptures that say marriage is for only the weak.  Scriptures saying that murder is sometimes righteous and sometimes the worst sin a person could commit.  Need I go on?  

Honestly, I can't see how anyone can use scriptures as some kind of test for truthfulness when there is so much contradiction found in them.  Hence, thousands of churches using the same exact scripture with completely different beliefs and doctrine.

Which is why Brigham Young once commented that he "would not give the ashes of a rye straw for these three books [The Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants] so far as they are efficacious for the salvation of any man that lives, without the living oracles of God." 

[MustardSeed]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I'm having a terrible day with feeling positive about the church. Last night I listened to a podcast https://www.athoughtfulfaith.org/278-to-win-at-all-costs-the-lds-church-and-its-heartless-legal-machine-craig-vernon/ with attorney Craig Vernon. He made a statement that made a lot of sense and would be so easy and probably eliminate all of the problems the church is having with people suing because the church gets in the middle of it. Mr. Vernon asked, why don't the leaders of the church get up in church and state that every member should call law enforcement if they are or have ever been harmed/abused, not go to the bishop. How easy can it get than this?!?!

He mentioned that there was a case with a YW's leader that was approached by a young woman in her class that her dad was sexually abusing her. And the YW's leader knew to go to the bishop just as it is outlined in the Handbook 2 guidelines. Then in Handbook 1 it tells the bishops to call the helpline. So nothing about the police.

Then I recently watch the Netflix documentary with Jan Broberg called "Abducted in Plain Sight", who was kidnapped twice by a friend of the family. And nothing was really ever done to her captor. He spent 19 days in jail. He was LDS as well as Jan's family. The man that did it was Robert E. Berchtold, but he died in 2005, and according to his obituary he had served in the Las Vegas temple just prior to his death. And I wonder how this could be. I'm shocked! He sexually abused the young Jan Broberg over and over. How can this be?!? Wasn't there a notation on his record anywhere? The obituary now has been shortened to not include those things any longer, but there are witnesses that know he served in the temple and in a bishopric I believe. I don't have any references as of yet.

Craig Vernon also made a comment about Sam Young who got ex'd for speaking for the youth not having one on one interviews with bishops/couselors because of the real danger of something going wrong. And then Vernon said, but then we have an MTC president that admitted to sexually abusing a couple of women and he hasn't been ex'd. So definitely something wrong here. 

These are things that make a person really want to leave. When is the church going to do what Vernon has suggested, when are they going to do the morally correct thing?

I just watched that myself, today. 2 minutes in I knew they were Mormon, and I just groaned.  The level of absolute naïveté.... I mean I get manipulation and brainwashing but this was next level stuff.  

I agree, people go to bishops and im thinking “hello.... cops?  Therapists? Doctor?” 

We grant our bishops a LOT of power and knowledge that they straight up just do not possess.  We are very odd that way. 

*the documentary has sexual abuse triggers for sure. Be warned. It’s intense.  It will make you want to throat punch the nearest idiot. 

[Glenn101]

1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

These are things that make a person really want to leave. When is the church going to do what Vernon has suggested, when are they going to do the morally correct thing?

I understand those feelings. But what if the church is true??? If it is true, wouldn't it be a better idea to help solve the problems in the church? You have to realize these stories, these problems are real, but they are anomalies that need to be corrected. When those anomalies take place it is because the authorities involved do not follow policies I know that have been in place for over thirty years.

The truth claims of the Catholic Church do not hinge upon the sexual abuse of young boys and nuns that has been reported and the ongoing cover ups. It hinges upon whether or not the priesthood authority, the authority for mortal men to act for God was taken from the earth and had to be restored. If the Catholic Church were the actual Church of Jesus Christ, it would mean that the known evil actors and those enabling them would have to be purged from the church, much as evil in the Children of Israel had to be purged over and over.

In just that way, the truth claims of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints do not hinge upon whether there are some bad actors among its ranks and in positions of responsibility. It hinges upon whether or not it is the restored Church of Jesus Christ. To me, it is incumbent upon those who learn of possible abuse to report it. Not only to the pertinent church leaders, but to the law enforcement community. If what one branch told me is true, confessions to an LDS authority are not privileged when a crime is involved. Such information is supposed to be forwarded to the appropriate civil authorities. If I had reason to believe that a person was being abused, I would report it to the civil authorities, not matter if the suspect were a member of the church or not.  But I would have to be pretty sure of myself because I would never want to be the cause of an innocent person having his or her life ruined by false accusations.

I really wish that the First Presidency would put forth a clear statement on what our leaders should do in the case of reported abuse and what we as individuals should do if we learn of abuse so that everyone will be on the same page.

In the mean time, I cannot walk away from the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints because of some bad actors within because I firmly believe in its truth claims and I believe that I would be walking away from my salvation and hopeful exaltation.

Glenn

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

what one branch told me is true, confessions to an LDS authority are not privileged when a crime is involved. S

It depends on the location, different states, countries, and provinces have different reporting rules.  This is why the Church has bishops call a hot line; both to give access to all possible resources the Church has to help victims and to ensure legal rules are strictly followed, to ensure the Church leaders do not cause problems for law enforcement as well as protecting leaders and victims.

[Calm]

This is what the Church counsels now...if you are going to urge the Church to change, you should at least take long enough to learn what they are actually doing now and not past procedures they have discarded.

They are not telling people to go to bishops first:

https://www.lds.org/get-help/abuse/in-crisis-talk-now?lang=eng

Quote

If you or someone you know has been abused, seek help immediately from civil authorities, child protective services, or adult protective services. You may also seek help from a victim advocate or medical or counseling professional. These services can help protect you and prevent further abuse.

In addition, the help lines listed below are free and are staffed by people who are trained to help. These resources are not created, maintained, or controlled by The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.

Only at the end of an extensive list of nonChurch resources do they mention Church leadership:

Quote

Additionally, Church leaders and members should fulfill all legal obligations to report abuse to civil authorities. No Church leader should ever dismiss a report of abuse or counsel a member not to report criminal activity. Bishops, branch presidents, and stake presidents should call the Church’s ecclesiastical help line immediately each time they learn of abuse for assistance in helping victims and meeting [legal] reporting requirements. Go to counselingresources.lds.org for the help line number and more information.

 

[Calm]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

agree, people go to bishops and im thinking “hello.... cops?  Therapists? Doctor?” 

The research show people everywhere seek out familiar faces or those they trust to report to....and kids will go to those they have access to...teachers, librarians, Church leaders.  Cops are intimidating.  Cop shows show them as aggressive, loud, even violent.  It should hardly surprise anyone that the symbol of safety in most wards for youth will be their immediate leaders and the Bishop.  It is human nature to go to someone you see as strong, but not overwhelming, not some brainwashing scheme.

[Calm]

1 hour ago, Glenn101 said:

really wish that the First Presidency would put forth a clear statement on what our leaders should do in the case of reported abuse and what we as individuals should do if we learn of abuse so that everyone will be on the same page.

They have:

https://www.lds.org/get-help/abuse/in-crisis-talk-now?lang=eng

[MustardSeed]

4 hours ago, Calm said:

The research show people everywhere seek out familiar faces or those they trust to report to....and kids will go to those they have access to...teachers, librarians, Church leaders.  Cops are intimidating.  Cop shows show them as aggressive, loud, even violent.  It should hardly surprise anyone that the symbol of safety in most wards for youth will be their immediate leaders and the Bishop.  It is human nature to go to someone you see as strong, but not overwhelming, not some brainwashing scheme.

All the more reason for us to remind each other here at grass roots level that there are more appropriate and effective ways of dealing with problems.  Just because something feels right, that doesn’t make it right which of course we all know  

Edited February 2, 2019 by MustardSeed

[MustardSeed]

More on this topic, I do wish bishops were more intensively trained in this issue of what needs to be handled outside the office.  They aren’t.  Maybe some are but with the knowledge that so many people turn to bishops for Problems beyond scope of practice (spiritual issues) due to what calm refers to, as well as a culture of Do All Your Business From Within and Don’t Trust Outsiders (which is toxic imo)... I think more emphasis for assistance where appropriate would be good 

Edited February 2, 2019 by MustardSeed
Sp

[MustardSeed]

53 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

not some brainwashing scheme.

Just saw that part- I agree, there is no scheme.  But it is an unhealthy thing to be such a closed system that common sense cannot prevail. 

At the very least , that is the case in the TCD that has Tacenda and frankly lots of other people pretty upset and examining church mentality right now. 

Tacenda, these are opportunities to call for change. 

[Teancum]

19 hours ago, bluebell said:

If the people who were writing down the scripture didn’t believe it was true, why would they care how many people were in the pews?  

Control.

[Teancum]

16 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

Yes, and I quoted them twice already on this thread.

Yes sorry.  I saw then after I replied.

[Teancum]

10 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Which is why Brigham Young once commented that he "would not give the ashes of a rye straw for these three books [The Bible, Book of Mormon, and Doctrine & Covenants] so far as they are efficacious for the salvation of any man that lives, without the living oracles of God." 

Sure he said that.  Gives him and the other "oracles of God" a lot of power to impose their will on the church that they lead.  Pretty sweet position to be in.

[Robert F. Smith]

1 minute ago, Teancum said:

Sure he said that.  Gives him and the other "oracles of God" a lot of power to impose their will on the church that they lead.  Pretty sweet position to be in.

You don't think he intended to mean that, without a prophet, the exegesis of Scripture might very well turn into eisegesis?  The negative notion that leaders are only interested in imposing their will on their underlings (rather than serving them) could just as well be applied to Jesus as leader of his Church when he was living in Palestine.  Is that really what Jesus was all about?  Or might he have had pure motives?