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Investigator

Joseph Smith's Monogamy

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Considering the recent thread on "Modern Polygamy Timeline & Purpose - not sure I follow...

I thought it relevant to provide a link to an alternative view.

There is considerable evidence to support Joseph Smith not participating in or teaching plural marriage.

I have provided a link documenting that evidence...

 http://anonymousbishop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JosephSmithsMonogamy1.pdf

JosephSmithsMonogamy1.pdf

Edited by Investigator
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Some might argue that if Joseph Smith was a prophet it does not make a difference if he was monogamous or polygamous as that is only a secondary issue.

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4 minutes ago, Investigator said:

Considering the recent thread on "Modern Polygamy Timeline & Purpose - not sure I follow...

I thought it relevant to provide a link to an alternative view.

There is considerable evidence to support Joseph Smith not participating in or teaching plural marriage.

I have provided a link documenting that evidence...

 http://anonymousbishop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JosephSmithsMonogamy1.pdf

I've seen this before.  There is some valid perspective, but I think the evidence points heavily towards Joseph Smith's practice of 'the principle.'  The Community of Christ harbors this belief.

The persecution Mormons faced in Missouri is the most compelling evidence to me that the historical records were not 'doctored' en masse to add plural marriage to his teachings and practice.

The fact that we have no known children coming from Joseph Smith's alleged plural wives is the most compelling evidence to me that he did nor practice polygamy.

The number of historical records that needed to have been created to pin polygamy on Smith would have required quite a vast conspiracy.  I'm not convinced that such a conspiracy was likely given all that needed to happen for it to be so comprehensive.

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Uhhh, huhhhh.  And the Earth is flat, we didn't land on the moon, and 9/11 was an inside job.

Next.

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

This argument has been repeatedly debunked.  Every actual historian, Mormon, non-Mormon, and anti-Mormon agrees.  Joseph was a polygamist.  There may be disagreement on the details but not on whether he lived it.

Oh quite contraire, Joseph Smith did not ever teach plural marriage. To the contrary, he and his brother were continuously preaching against it and excommunicating those who were involved in it right up until his martyrdom. The evidence cited by historians is all non-contemporary accounts given by many women who have now been shown to be liars who claimed to have had children by Joseph but who did not.  

Here is another link to a paper which debunks what you claim has been debunked.  

 

Plural Marriage

 

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4 hours ago, Investigator said:

Considering the recent thread on "Modern Polygamy Timeline & Purpose - not sure I follow...

I thought it relevant to provide a link to an alternative view.

There is considerable evidence to support Joseph Smith not participating in or teaching plural marriage.

I have provided a link documenting that evidence...

 http://anonymousbishop.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/11/JosephSmithsMonogamy1.pdf

JosephSmithsMonogamy1.pdf

A lie perpetuated by Emma Smith. 

 

I believe the Church itself has records of J Smith’s sealings. 

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1 hour ago, Investigator said:

Oh quite contraire, Joseph Smith did not ever teach plural marriage. To the contrary, he and his brother were continuously preaching against it and excommunicating those who were involved in it right up until his martyrdom. The evidence cited by historians is all non-contemporary accounts given by many women who have now been shown to be liars who claimed to have had children by Joseph but who did not.  

Here is another link to a paper which debunks what you claim has been debunked.  

 

Plural Marriage

 

I guess that one can ignore everything or spin everything to fit a particular narrative or point of view. Painting a lot of women who lived great lives and sacrificed so much to live that principal as liars and imagining a vast conspiracy of great proportions just does not seem logical. There were negative contemporary sources concerning polygamy in the least in addition to William Clayton's diaries. Hopefully they will be released in full soon. In the meantime, take a trip to http://www.sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/IL/sign1844.htm.

There you can read "Buckey's Lamentations for the Want of More Wives" that was published in the the Warsaw Signal, February 7, 1844 edition. Here is an excerpt, one verse of the poem.

Quote

But Jo at snaring beats them all
    And at the rest does laugh;
For widows poor, and orphan girls,
    He can ensnare with chaff.
He sets his snares around for all, --
    And very seldom fails
To catch some thoughtless PARTRIDGES,
    SNOW-birds or KNIGHT-ingales!

 

4 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

This is a good example of pseudo scholarship.  Critical thinking skills and methodical evaluation of evidence have debunked these theories a long time ago.  I'm not aware of any credible historians who support these ideas.  

At least you and I do agree on something! 😊

Glenn

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2 hours ago, Investigator said:

Oh quite contraire, Joseph Smith did not ever teach plural marriage. To the contrary, he and his brother were continuously preaching against it and excommunicating those who were involved in it right up until his martyrdom. The evidence cited by historians is all non-contemporary accounts given by many women who have now been shown to be liars who claimed to have had children by Joseph but who did not.  

Here is another link to a paper which debunks what you claim has been debunked.  

 

Plural Marriage

 

Denver Snuffer?

As I said, every credible historian recognizes the reality of Joseph and polygamy.

If the best you have is Snuffer and the Price's etc I don't think the Mormon world will be flocking to deny what is well known in favor of such nonsense.

Sorry, conspiracy theories aren't historical proof.

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2 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Denver Snuffer?

As I said, every credible historian recognizes the reality of Joseph and polygamy.

If the best you have is Snuffer and the Price's etc I don't think the Mormon world will be flocking to deny what is well known in favor of such nonsense.

Sorry, conspiracy theories aren't historical proof.

It is very unfortunate that most judge an argument on the bona fides of the author and not the content of the message. You would be better served to read the message and not dismiss it because of the name of the messenger.

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I have read stuff by Snuffer and I have not been impressed by the quality.  Why should this be viewed differently? (Serious question)

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6 hours ago, Calm said:

I have read stuff by Snuffer and I have not been impressed by the quality.  Why should this be viewed differently? (Serious question)

The Jews had the same problem with our Lord or with John the Baptist. When we run up against a message that doesn’t fit within in our accepted paradigm, cognitive dissonance sets in and we don’t allow ourselves to objectively evaluate the message. Why should our test be any less difficult than that of the Jews. We, like them, think that a true message can not come from anywhere but from within our currently accepted belief structure. 

 

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I have read and studied this subject for many years.

The truth is, there is evidence pointing both ways. So for me the amount of evidence became less important than it's provenance. And in terms of provenance, the closer to the Prophet and the time, the better. Therefore I believe contemporary evidence has the greatest value in helping to resolve this issue.

In that regard, it is clear to me that Joseph was unlikely to have been involved in polygamy. "Sealings" on the other hand, are a entirely different matter.

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45 minutes ago, Investigator said:

The Jews had the same problem with our Lord or with John the Baptist. When we run up against a message that doesn’t fit within in our accepted paradigm, cognitive dissonance sets in and we don’t allow ourselves to objectively evaluate the message. Why should our test be any less difficult than that of the Jews. We, like them, think that a true message can not come from anywhere but from within our currently accepted belief structure. 

 

I realize you’re not responding to me. I agree with your premise that we need to be very open minded, and avoid the tendency to confirm our biases.

In this case, the magnitude of coordination (conspiracy) required to pin polygamy on Joseph Smith (both his practice and endorsement) is so vast, that for me the evidence that he practiced it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

I see where you’re coming from, though. There have been some compelling articles written. But, I view those like I do a good defense lawyer.  Authors will paint a picture using some evidence that favors a position and reframe evidence that refutes the contrary position.  I’d encourage anyone to hear all positions and weigh the evidence for themselves.

But - I’ve read enough to ‘convict’ Joseph of practicing plural marriage.

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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

 

In this case, the magnitude of coordination (conspiracy) required to pin polygamy on Joseph Smith (both his practice and endorsement) is so vast, that for me the evidence that he practiced it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

 

Actually, this is not true.

It would take very little effort to do this if the impetus came from authority figures. Very little indeed.

Of course, there would be people who refused to accept that impetus, and they would speak out at the time... which is exactly what happened.

Edited by Alan
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17 hours ago, Investigator said:

Oh quite contraire, Joseph Smith did not ever teach plural marriage. To the contrary, he and his brother were continuously preaching against it and excommunicating those who were involved in it right up until his martyrdom. The evidence cited by historians is all non-contemporary accounts given by many women who have now been shown to be liars who claimed to have had children by Joseph but who did not.  

Here is another link to a paper which debunks what you claim has been debunked.  

 

Plural Marriage

 

And this badly edited YouTube video proves that chem trails are a real thing.

conspiracy_theories.png

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7 hours ago, Investigator said:

The Jews had the same problem with our Lord or with John the Baptist. When we run up against a message that doesn’t fit within in our accepted paradigm, cognitive dissonance sets in and we don’t allow ourselves to objectively evaluate the message. Why should our test be any less difficult than that of the Jews. We, like them, think that a true message can not come from anywhere but from within our currently accepted belief structure. 

 

No, it wasn't that his stuff didn't fit within my paradigm, he was the one refusing to change his paradigm when running into stuff he didn't like.

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20 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

I realize you’re not responding to me. I agree with your premise that we need to be very open minded, and avoid the tendency to confirm our biases.

In this case, the magnitude of coordination (conspiracy) required to pin polygamy on Joseph Smith (both his practice and endorsement) is so vast, that for me the evidence that he practiced it is beyond a reasonable doubt.

I see where you’re coming from, though. There have been some compelling articles written. But, I view those like I do a good defense lawyer.  Authors will paint a picture using some evidence that favors a position and reframe evidence that refutes the contrary position.  I’d encourage anyone to hear all positions and weigh the evidence for themselves.

But - I’ve read enough to ‘convict’ Joseph of practicing plural marriage.

The problem with allowing yourself to “convict” Joseph of practicing plural marriage is that by doing so you must necessarily call both Joseph and Emma hypocrites and liars because they both denied plural marriage until their dying day. Joseph preached against plural marriage and excommunicated those found to be practicing it. I am just trying to gently persuade folks to take another look at this.

 

Quote

The ends of the earth shall inquire after thy name, and fools shall have thee in derision, and hell shall rage against thee;

While the pure in heart, and the wise, and the noble, and the virtuous, shall seek counsel, and authority, and blessings constantly from under thy hand.

And thy people shall never be turned against thee by the testimony of traitors.

I’m pretty sure believing Joseph and Emma were liars and hypocrites is to have them in derision. I chose not to do that.

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4 hours ago, Investigator said:

The problem with allowing yourself to “convict” Joseph of practicing plural marriage is that by doing so you must necessarily call both Joseph and Emma hypocrites and liars because they both denied plural marriage until their dying day. Joseph preached against plural marriage and excommunicated those found to be practicing it. I am just trying to gently persuade folks to take another look at this.

The problem here is that Joseph didn't excommunicate those found practicing it.  Leaving aside for one moment the question of Joseph and Hyrum living polygamy we can look at those who did.

We have the contemporary records of those who received their endowments, marriage sealings, and second anointings from Joseph.   Virtually every documented Nauvoo polygamist falls into that category. 

You list the plural children of Heber C. Kimball and William Clayton that were born during Joseph's lifetime.  In contemporary records these same men were inducted into Joseph's most elite circles, not excommunicated.

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If Joseph Smith did not practice plural marriage, what does that say about the Church creating a narrative in which he did?

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6 hours ago, Investigator said:

The problem with allowing yourself to “convict” Joseph of practicing plural marriage is that by doing so you must necessarily call both Joseph and Emma hypocrites and liars because they both denied plural marriage until their dying day. Joseph preached against plural marriage and excommunicated those found to be practicing it. I am just trying to gently persuade folks to take another look at this.

 

I’m pretty sure believing Joseph and Emma were liars and hypocrites is to have them in derision. I chose not to do that.

Except, of course, it has been pretty well documented that the denials were motivated (at least partially) by fear of additional persecution.

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On 1/24/2019 at 9:20 PM, 10THAmendment said:

Read the church essay on polygamy. It happened and the details are ugly. 

Whether something is ugly or not really is up to the individual.

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