Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
SouthernMo

Modern Polygamy Timeline & Purpose - not sure I follow...

Recommended Posts

The timeline and reasons of how the idea of polygamy evolved into practice is perplexing.  It is causing me doubt how scriptures are to be obeyed, and how to trust the revelatory process.  Let's look at the pattern Joseph Smith followed:

March 1830 - Joseph Smith publishes the Book of Mormon (supposedly scripture) which contains commandments from God.  The only discussion of polygamy is found in Jacob 2, which clearly condemns the practice.  However, there is a provision given for exceptions: only to 'raise up seed' if God commands it.

The Gospel Topics Essay on Plural Marriage in Kirtland and Nauvoo states that "After receiving a revelation commanding him to practice plural marriage, Joseph Smith married multiple wives and introduced the practice to close associates."  The only revelation I know of on polygamy came in July 1843 (D&C 132), yet Joseph Smith had married 22 (by some count) additional wives by July 1843.

2 Big Questions:

1. What revelation did Joseph Smith receive (per the mentioned Gospel Topic Essay) before the D&C 132 revelation that told him to practice polygamy, despite the Book of Mormon's 1830 prohibition (with exception)?

2. In light of the Jacob 2:30 provision for the allowance of polygamy to "raise up seed unto me..." why are there no (known) children that emerged from Joseph Smith's plural wives?  Joseph apparently did not use polygamy to 'raise up seed.'

Share this post


Link to post

1. Some have questioned its validity but there's this revelation:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/indianpolygamyrevelation.htm

2. Opportunity.  There's little evidence Joseph was able to room with many of his wives.  Odds of getting pregnant -

https://www.todaysparent.com/getting-pregnant/trying-to-conceive/what-are-your-odds-of-getting-pregnant-each-month/

There were a few who believed their children were Joseph's so we know those relationships were physical.  But more often than not they went back to their lives after the sealing.

Edited by JLHPROF
  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
34 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

1. Some have questioned its validity but there's this revelation:

http://www.utlm.org/onlineresources/indianpolygamyrevelation.htm

This revelation (if we are to accept it) indicates that polygamy is to be instituted with Native Americans to produce whiter children, and essentially eradicate the darker skins of those people.  Maybe that also falls under the Jacob 2 provision 'raise up seed?'  It does not appear that any of these men raised many children (if any?) with these Native American plural wives.

How was the Jacob 2 provision met?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

2. In light of the Jacob 2:30 provision for the allowance of polygamy to "raise up seed unto me..." why are there no (known) children that emerged from Joseph Smith's plural wives?  Joseph apparently did not use polygamy to 'raise up seed.'

We don't know that he did not use polygamy to raise up seed, all we know is that he was unsuccessful.  If we look at the practice of "raising up seed" as more of a group effort, there is justification for those who practice in good faith and are unsuccessful (sterile men for example). 

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, pogi said:

We don't know that he did not use polygamy to raise up seed, all we know is that he was unsuccessful.  If we look at the practice of "raising up seed" as more of a group effort, there is justification for those who practice in good faith and are unsuccessful (sterile men for example). 

Perhaps - but it is interesting to note that he seemed to have no trouble fathering children with his first wife Emma.  With so many wives thereafter, we don't have evidence or substantial claim (that I know of) of any children?  We could speculate as to why.  But (and I don't mean to be crude), with so many wives, he didn't seem to be trying too hard to raise up seed with them.  He clearly did not suffer from sterility.

Share this post


Link to post

 I believe the concept of plural marriage was one that developed in stages, the same way we learn many gospel principles; line upon line and precept upon precept (Isaiah 28:10). Joseph Smith at first learned and taught the spiritual aspects of it. Most sealings to him were primarily for the eternal aspects of it. Spiritual wives in the next life would also create seed in the form of spirit children. Those he was sealed to were with either single women or women whose husbands were either disaffected from the church or were non-members. They wanted to be sealed to someone who would be certain to obtain eternal life in the Celestial kingdom. Some were even sealed to him after he died. There were a few he was sealed to whose first husbands were active members, but they did that because they wanted to bind their families together to be linked into eternity. This would be more correctly called polyandrous marriages; marriage without cohabitation.
Aside from this we don't know for sure that Joseph Smith did not have any children with some of these women; there just isn't any verifiable record of any children being born to any of his "spiritual wives".

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

The only revelation I know of on polygamy came in July 1843 (D&C 132), yet Joseph Smith had married 22 (by some count) additional wives by July 1843.

Post-June 27, 1844, there was a lot seed raised unto the Lord as per Jacob 2.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
3 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Post-June 27, 1844, there was a lot seed raised unto the Lord as per Jacob 2.

What do you mean?

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, JAHS said:

 I believe the concept of plural marriage was one that developed in stages, the same way we learn many gospel principles; line upon line and precept upon precept (Isaiah 28:10). Joseph Smith at first learned and taught the spiritual aspects of it. Most sealings to him were primarily for the eternal aspects of it. Spiritual wives in the next life would also create seed in the form of spirit children. Those he was sealed to were with either single women or women whose husbands were either disaffected from the church or were non-members. They wanted to be sealed to someone who would be certain to obtain eternal life in the Celestial kingdom. Some were even sealed to him after he died. There were a few he was sealed to whose first husbands were active members, but they did that because they wanted to bind their families together to be linked into eternity. This would be more correctly called polyandrous marriages; marriage without cohabitation.
Aside from this we don't know for sure that Joseph Smith did not have any children with some of these women; there just isn't any verifiable record of any children being born to any of his "spiritual wives".

Joseph should have just sealed himself to these women's parents, wouldn't that do the same thing?

Share this post


Link to post
5 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

2. In light of the Jacob 2:30 provision for the allowance of polygamy to "raise up seed unto me..." why are there no (known) children that emerged from Joseph Smith's plural wives?  Joseph apparently did not use polygamy to 'raise up seed.'

I take this exception to be in be in in a general or collective sense rather than individual.   In other words, the practice was for many in the church. Whether Joseph himself had a bunch of kids or not is not the intent.  Appealing to individual cases or examples will always have problems.  It is said that one of the reasons for marriage itself is to multiple and fill the earth.  However there are many examples where married couples are not able to have kids for various reasons.  These examples do not refute or create problems for the overall directive in marriage to have kids.  I suppose there would be cases in polygamy where many kids did not happen if infertility issues existed with the guy.  So I see Jacob 2:30 to hold to the same basic premise.  The group is to practice polygamy to raise seed but there may be examples within the group that do not follow this for various reasons. 

 

I also believe that polygamy existed among the Jaredites.   The brother of Jared for example probably had more than one wife.

Edited by carbon dioxide
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

I take this exception to be in be in in a general or collective sense rather than individual.   In other words, the practice was for many in the church. Whether Joseph himself had a bunch of kids or not is not the intent.  Appealing to individual cases or examples will always have problems.  It is said that one of the reasons for marriage itself is to multiple and fill the earth.  However there are many examples where married couples are not able to have kids for various reasons.  These examples do not refute or create problems for the overall directive in marriage to have kids.  I suppose there would be cases in polygamy where many kids did not happen if infertility issues existed with the guy.  So I see Jacob 2:30 to hold to the same basic premise.  The group is to practice polygamy to raise seed but there may be examples within the group that do not follow this for various reasons. 

Perhaps - but then why did Joseph not bear more children from his many wives?

Share this post


Link to post
2 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

Perhaps - but then why did Joseph not bear more children from his many wives?

With fertility issues probably not be an issue I see three possibilities.  First, he just did not spend enough time around his wives have a lot of kids.   Second, he made a decision not to have a lot of kids as he knew his life was in constant danger and felt it better for him to personally not leave his wives with kids without him there to raise them.   Polygamy and having lots of kids works better in situations where there is some peace and stability.  Joseph Smith life was one with not much stability and more chaos.  Finally, perhaps and related to the 2nd point, there was not sex involved between him and these wives.  One can be married and not have sex.  So if Joseph viewed these marries more as spiritual marriages or eternal marriages rather than marriages in the normal sense,  he was sealed to these woman but nothing really beyond that occurred.

Share this post


Link to post
4 minutes ago, carbon dioxide said:

Finally, perhaps and related to the 2nd point, there was not sex involved between him and these wives.  One can be married and not have sex.  So if Joseph viewed these marries more as spiritual marriages or eternal marriages rather than marriages in the normal sense,  he was sealed to these woman but nothing really beyond that occurred.

I realize that this is a possibility, and no one else was in the bedroom, but come on!  Do any students of Joseph Smith (or LDS polygamy) see this as a legitimate possibility?  I'm sure there were instances (Jane Tippets?) of marriages that were not consummated, but I understand that the position that polygamy was a system of 'spiritual wives' without intercourse has been thoroughly debunked, despite it offending our Victorian sensibilities.

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

but I understand that the position that polygamy was a system of 'spiritual wives' without intercourse has been thoroughly debunked, despite it offending our Victorian sensibilities.

Like I said earlier there were women who had themselves sealed to Joseph after he died. Pretty sure there was no intercourse involved. And those spiritual wives may not produce seed in the mortality but certainly could be involved in the creation of spirit children in the next life.  

Share this post


Link to post
6 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

What do you mean?

That was the day Joseph was murdered. Within 50 years others had raised thousands of children to the Lord as per Jacob 2 giving a huge jumpstart to the Restoration.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

For some outside reading you can look at the 3 volume set about polygamy by Brian Hales. IIRC of all the documented women sealed to Joseph , there were only a couple+/_ where it was strongly shown to be intimate. 

Share this post


Link to post
36 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That was the day Joseph was murdered. Within 50 years others had raised thousands of children to the Lord as per Jacob 2 giving a huge jumpstart to the Restoration.

 Do you have data to show that women in polygamist families for more children and women in traditional families?

It’s still begs the question why Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy  in a manner contrary to the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

Share this post


Link to post
45 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

That was the day Joseph was murdered. Within 50 years others had raised thousands of children to the Lord as per Jacob 2 giving a huge jumpstart to the Restoration.

Also - how does having lots of children 15 years after the publication of the Book of Mormon and introduction of the priesthood  “jumpstart” the restoration?

Share this post


Link to post
9 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

For some outside reading you can look at the 3 volume set about polygamy by Brian Hales. IIRC of all the documented women sealed to Joseph , there were only a couple+/_ where it was strongly shown to be intimate. 

Ok - so why be sealed to so many wives if not to fulfill Jacob 2:30?

Share this post


Link to post
1 minute ago, SouthernMo said:

It’s still begs the question why Joseph Smith was practicing polygamy  in a manner contrary to the teachings of the Book of Mormon.

The reality is you are asking people a question of why someone (in this case Joseph Smith) did or acted a certain way 175 years later.   All we can do is guess and I suspect that whatever answers we come up with simply will probably not be completely accurate.  If you had a time machine and you could go back to 1844 and ask Joseph, he would give you the correct answer and one that you probably would agree with or accept.   This is one issue that people have a hard time with.  They try to get all the answers in history but all the answers simply do not exist.  I believe that a lot of what Joseph did he  and why he did it he was not asking himself at the time  "what will people think or how will they interpret this action 175 years from now. "  He is just like us.  I make decisions in my life with no regard on how people long after I am gone would ask or questions why I did this or that and don't leave a record of why I did things.  We can never know what people will be thinking or will bother them a century from now.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
1 hour ago, carbon dioxide said:

He is just like us.

Do you really mean this?  You hold Joseph Smith to the same standard of judgement that you do anyone else?

Share this post


Link to post
33 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

You hold Joseph Smith to the same standard of judgement that you do anyone else?

You need to spend a little time reading about the prophets , both ancient and modern. People have a tendency to put them on spiritual pedestals. God chooses them mostly because they are willing to follow Him and His counsels . Did Noah have any flaws?, Moses? Elisha? We recently had a thread about Joseph F Smith and his response to the priesthood question. Was he flawed? Probably, and yet if one actually looks at his entire life and accomplishments one would be hard pressed to do a tenth of what he did to further the Kingdom. You seem to want the prophet to be a marionette that moves at the slightest touch and never puts a foot wrong. With what judgement you judge , you will be judged. Personally , I cut the prophets all a fair amount of slack in the hope that God does a bit of cutting when it's my turn. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
2 hours ago, Hamba Tuhan said:

The command to practise plural marriage did not fit anywhere into that list. It required sincere, 'unceasing' seeking; the willingness and the ability to obtain revelation; and the desire to obey the conviction once it came. The end result: people who 'heard the words of the prophets' and 'hearkened unto their words' -- i.e., seed unto the Lord. Without it, the Church would have remained barren. Instead, it flourished.

It's the same process today. The authorised mouthpieces of the Lord are, like the Master they represent, stones of stumbling and rocks of offence for some, sanctuaries for others. One response produces seed unto the Lord; one results in sterility.

This is what I have come to understand as the main purpose for polygamy--to create a people who are all prophets--direct line to God.

Edited by Maidservant
  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
7 minutes ago, Maidservant said:

This is what I have come to understand as the main purpose for polygamy--to create a people who are all prophets--direct line to God..

Exactly! It's the rock of personal revelation that makes us Saints so frustrating to some, inscrutable to most. Trying to find a motive or motives for early Saints' embrace of plural marriage whilst bracketing revelation is a fool's errand.

Edited by Hamba Tuhan
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post

Join the conversation

You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.

Guest
Reply to this topic...

×   Pasted as rich text.   Paste as plain text instead

  Only 75 emoji are allowed.

×   Your link has been automatically embedded.   Display as a link instead

×   Your previous content has been restored.   Clear editor

×   You cannot paste images directly. Upload or insert images from URL.

Sign in to follow this  
  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

  • Similar Content

    • By nuclearfuels
      https://www.sltrib.com/news/2019/09/11/robert-gehrke-utah-should/comments/#twt-comments
      Surprised to see the Trib advocate this but here we are.
      My own take on the issue: the gov't of UT and State Supreme Court won't legalize polygamy at all.
      It won't really matter though, some US state (MN?) will legalize it after Canada does (following Kenya, other African countries, Denmark which already have), and based on freedom of religion (not the freedom of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter day Saints, no; but the freedom of religious practice of other groups.
      Wondering though when we might hear an announcement about this in General Conference, 5, 10 20 years? 
       
       
       
    • By nuclearfuels
      Kenya legalized polygamy in 2014.  Any readers here serve mission there and have to tell investigators they'd need to stop the practice before being able to be baptized? I understand in Latin America a lot of married people split up but forgo the legal part of making the divorce official and that has to be done before they can be baptized.
      Germany is trying to indirectly legalize polygamy for one of their migrant culture's beliefs. 
      My wife and I support our ancestors who practiced polygamy, to say nothing of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob practicing polygamy.
      Curious as to your thoughts:
      Will other African countries and European countries following suit? Will / Should people in Congress - Ilhan, Tlaib, Romney, Bishop, etc. allow migrants here to practice what their faith encourages?  Declining populations (Japan, Europe) really have two options: welcome in higher fertility populations from other countries or legalize polygamy. 
       
      Pushed by politicians, polygamy enjoys a heyday among Christians in ...
      Germany: Citizenship for Polygamous Migrants?  
    • By blueglass
      Here is the 2019 end of year seminary assessment my kids received yesterday. Would love to hear your thoughts on the questions, the probable answers, and the doctrine taught.  Don't forget the last 4 questions pertaining to the Explain Doctrine section.  
      https://ibb.co/Dfz4JNr
      Read instructions before you start the test:
      Exam code: 8
      If you have difficulty taking the learning assessment in the traditional way, please talk with your teacher to figure out the best way to help you succeed.
      Use a no. 2 or HB pencil. Indicate your response by completely filling in the bubble on your answer sheet.
      Section name: Multiple Choice
        1.  Who will receive a place in a kingdom of glory? (1 mark)
      a) Every individual born into mortality
      b) All of God's children except the sons of perdition
      c) Only individuals who are worthy of exaltation
        2. Which of the following is a specific responsibility mentioned in the oath and covenant of the priesthood? (1 mar)
      a) To magnify their callings
      b) To pay a generous fast offering
      c) To not be idle
        3. Because of the Atonement of Jesus Christ, in the Resurrection all individuals will receive ____ (1 mark)
      a) at least a terrestrial glory
      b) celestial glory
      c) glory according to the law they obeyed
        4. Which of the following blessings does God offer to those who keep the Word of Wisdom? (1 mark)
      a) They will not be burned at the Second Coming.
      b) Their bodies will be protected from all illness.
      c) They will receive wisdom and great treasures of knowledge.
        5. To be endowed in the temple means to receive ____ (1 mark)
      a) a guarantee of eternal life
      b) spiritual power and knowledge
      c) unique physical gifts from the Lord
        6. What does the existence of the precious truths in the Pearl of Great Pric teach us about the Prophet Joseph Smith? (1 mark)
      a) He no longer needed the power of God to help him translate.
      b) He was a prophet, seer, and revelator.
      c) He is the only prophet of this dispensation that can receive new scripture.
        7. As watchmen on the tower, modern prophets have a responsibility to ____ (1 mark)
      a) warn us of coming dangers
      b) stop Satan from tempting members of the Church
      c) change truth to fit modern times
        8. What is a bishop's or branch president's main responsibility when a teenager confesses sin to him? (1 mark)
      a) To prevent the person from being part of the Church
      b) To help the person receive forgiveness of the sins and regain peace of mind
      c) To inflict severe consequences and punishments from sinning
        9. Who visited the Prophet Joseph Smith and Oliver Cowdery in the Kirtland Temple to restore priesthood keys? (1 mark)
      a) Jeremiah, Isaiah, and Malachi
      b) Moses, Elias, and Elijah
      c) Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob
        10. According to the Doctrine and Covenants, what are tithing funds used for? (1 mark)
      a) They are the main fund the Church uses to support the poor and the needy.
      b) They are used to build temples and to accomplish the work of the Lord.
      c) They are used to pay ward and branch members for serving in the Church.
        11. While the Prophet Joseph Smith was falsely imprisoned in Liberty Jail, the Lord taught him that adversity and affliction
      (1 mark)
      a) will not occur if we trust in God
      b) are always a consequence of our poor choices
      c) can give us experience and be for our good
        12. Which of the following is a true statement about Relief Society? (1 mark)
      a) It was divinely organized to assist in the work of salvation.
      b) It was established during the trek west to help Saints who were suffering.
      c) It did not exist during the lifetime of the Prophet Joseph Smith.
        13. A man and a woman will receive eternal life and glory if _____ (1 mark)
      a) they love each other more than they love themselves
      b) they keep the new and everlasting covenant of marriage they made in the temple
      c) they are married in the temple
        14. Why do our ancestors who die without having a knowledge of the gospel need us to perform ordinances for them in the temple?
      a) Without these ordinances, our ancestors cannot progress toward eternal life. (1 mark)
      b) Without these ordinances, our ancestors cannot be saved in any kingdom of glory.
      c} Without these ordinances, our ancestors will not be resurrected.
        15. Marriage between one man and one woman is the Lord's standing law. Wen is the only time plural marriage is justified?
      a) Wen there are more women than men in the Church (1 mark)
      b) Whenever local laws and traditions allow members to practice it without breaking the law
      c) When the Lord authorizes it through the priesthood keys given to the President of the Church
        16. When the President of the Church dies, which quorum becomes the presiding quorum of the Church? (1 mark)
      a) The Quorum of the Twelve Apostles
      b) The Quorum of the First Presidency
      c) The Presiding Bishopric
        17. Which of the following shows the correct chronological order (first to last) of places the Saints were told to gather to? (1 mark}
      a) A stake in their homeland; Nauvoo, Illinois; Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Salt Lake City, Utah
      b) Nauvoo, Illinois; Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Salt Lake City, Utah; a stake in their homeland
      c) Winter Quarters, Nebraska; Nauvoo, Illinois; Salt Lake City, Utah; a stake in their homeland
        18. After the Savior visited the spirit world, what did righteous spirits there begin to do?
      a} They were all resurrected and began entering the highest kingdom of glory.
      b) They began performing ordinances for those who had not received them.
      c) They began teaching the gospel to those in spirit prison.
      (1 mark)
        19. According to Official Declaration 2, the Lord revealed that all worthy male Church members may ___ _ (1 mark)
      a) receive the ordinance of baptism
      b) serve a mission at age 18
      c) receive the priesthood and enjoy temple blessings
        20. What principle is emphasized in Doctrine and Covenants 121:36, 41-2? (1 mark)
      a) Priesthood holders can draw upon the powers of heaven only if they live righteously.
      b) lf we actively seek to learn through study and faith, our faith in Jesus Christ will increase.
      c) If we obey the Lord, He will always keep His promises to bless us.
        21. Which of the following accurately describes Heavenly Father? (1 mark)
      a) He is without feelings or emotions.
      b) He is a personage of Spirit and can dwell in us.
      c) He has a body of flesh and bones as tangible as man's.
        22. Which of the following is a requirement for receiving exaltation in the celestial kingdom? (1 mark)
      a) Bearing testimony of the Savior is all that is needed.
      b) Receiving a patriarchal blessing
      c) Receiving and being valiant in the testimony of Jesus Christ
        23. Of the following groups, who will inherit the celestial kingdom? (1 mark)
      a) All children who die before they reach the age of accountability
      b) All members of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints
      c) All individuals who have been baptized
        24. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "God doesn't care how marriage is defined"? (1 mark)
      a) Ever individual born into morality is a child of God, and God loves each of us.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God changes truth to meet the circumstances and needs of His children.
        25. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "It isn't as important for couples to have children today as it used to
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      c) God's commandment fr husbands and wives to have children remains in force today.
        26. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "As long as two individuals love each other, physical intimacy is
      acceptable"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
        27. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "As governments continue to redefine marriage, God's definition of
      marriage will change to reflect the values of modern society"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      b) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      c) Changes in the civil law do not change the moral law that God has established.
        28. Which eternal truth corrects the following worldly philosophy: "The only purpose of marriage is for adults to find fulfillment and
      happiness"? (1 mark)
      a) Marriage between a man and a woman is the ideal setting for children to be born, reared, and nurtured.
      b) Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God.
      c) God has commanded that the sacred powers of procreation are to be employed only between a man and a woman who are
      lawfully wedded as husband and wife.
      Section name: Explain Doctrine _
      Instructions: Write your answer on a piece of paper. Compare your response with the correct answer received from your teacher. After self-grading the explain-doctrine question, bubble in your answer sheet.
      Self-grade your answer for each question:
      a. Yes, I explained this in my response.
      b. No, I left this out of my response.
        29. What is an example of a truth that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the truth you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        30. What is an example of an ordinance that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why the ordinance you chose can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        31. What is an example of priesthood authority that was restored through the Prophet Joseph Smith? Explain why this authority of the priesthood can help you receive eternal life. (1 mark)
        32. Share your personal thoughts on the importance of the Prophet Joseph Smith. (1 mark)
    • By Bernard Gui
      In Helaman 13, Samuel the Lamanite gives dire prophetic warnings to the Nephites from the walls of Zarahemla. He predicts their destruction will come in 400 years as the result of wickedness, rejecting the Prophets,  pride, and seeking after wealth. He warns, 
      Then he says, 
      Two questions:
      1. Is anyone aware of other literary references to such notions as slippery treasure, tools, swords, etc., especially in the Early Moden English time period?
      2. This is often used by BoM critics as evidence Joseph Smith was writing from his experience with the treasure-seeking atmosphere in early 19th-century upstate New York. Does the EModE theory that Joseph was not the author of the BoM text but was reading someone else’s words, whatever their source, resolve this issue?
    • By HappyJackWagon
      I want to respond to a couple of statements made by Julianne from the now closed "Weed" thread, because she absolutely nails it. She is spot on and I think the discussion at this level needs to occur before any progress can be made on the SSM issue.
      She wrote...
      Speaking as a straight, white, man, I recognize that I come to the traditional church teachings of priesthood, sealing, polygamy/polyandry, and SSM from a certain privileged position. The church's teachings and practices benefit me and they always have. Even though there is little to no evidence for how celestial families will actually be organized and function in the CK I used to think I had it all figured out. Obviously, I thought, marriage is essential to have legal physical intimacy which is necessary for creating offspring with one or multiple wives. Yet there is no firm teaching about how spirits are created. Are they born like a baby is born into mortality? There is no evidence or teaching for that, but it is widely assumed. That assumption then justifies polygamy while discrediting polyandry and even SSM. After all, if the entire purpose is to create spirit offspring and it is thought that it happens in a way similar to creating biological offspring, then it makes sense. But that is ALL based on assumptions.
      Based on these assumptions many are willing to condemn others to lives (and possibly even an eternity) of loneliness.
      So (we) don't even know what the afterlife looks like. It is unknown. Yet we think (we) have enough information to condemn and judge others, and since most of us come at it from positions of privilege, we are in the position to enforce our dogma upon the less privileged. The church is not unique in behaving this way. It is how society has always worked. But recognizing the assumptions for what they are and being humble about how much we really don't know, can help society improve.
      Julianne also stated...
      How can one categorically dismiss SSM when there is little to nothing known about family organization in the next life, even regarding a variety of heterosexual family organizations. Which sealings will be valid? Polygamy/polyandry? Only those which benefit men? Who are the children sealed to? There is a lot of "The Lord will work it out" mentality, which is fine because it acknowledges a lack of understanding and knowledge. The problem comes when one then loses all humility and attempts to define how family relationships will or will not work for other people. I agree with Julianne that the polygamy/polyandry topic is closely tied to the SSM topic and must be ironed out.
      So maybe this can be a thread that can be commented on instead of derailing other threads when this subject comes up.
       
      *Julianne, I hope I didn't misunderstand or misrepresent you. I really appreciated where you were trying to take the discussion.
×
×
  • Create New...