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Were jesus and Adam perfect?

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Adam had incomplete knowledge, and Jesus was half mortal - an imperfect body.

How do you define perfection?

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A resurrected immortal body that has obtained the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. When the following scripture is fulfilled:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132: 20)

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41 minutes ago, changed said:

Adam had incomplete knowledge, and Jesus was half mortal - an imperfect body.

How do you define perfection?

This assumes that perfection has a finite boundary.

Perfection can only be achieved within each sphere.  The progression to a higher sphere occurs.

 

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Well if Adam was perfect...it is only because Eve wasn't...

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19 minutes ago, JAHS said:

A resurrected immortal body that has obtained the highest degree of the Celestial kingdom. When the following scripture is fulfilled:

"Then shall they be gods, because they have no end; therefore shall they be from everlasting to everlasting, because they continue; then shall they be above all, because all things are subject unto them. Then shall they be gods, because they have all power, and the angels are subject unto them." (D&C 132: 20)

I don't believe in D & C section 132 and a lot of the so called revelations that JS had in the that book.

Edited by Tacenda

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31 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in D & C section 132 and a lot of the so called revelations that JS had in the that book.

Well which scripture do you believe accurately represents God's word on subjects?

Which dishes on the gospel buffett are we allowed to put towards building a belief?

Edited by JLHPROF

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35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in D & C section 132 and a lot of the so called revelations that JS had in the that book.

OK so how do you define perfection?

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22 minutes ago, JAHS said:

OK so how do you define perfection?

Loving unconditionally, seeking to help mankind, putting yourself in other's shoes, obeying the first two commandments of the ten, pretty much brings out a perfection in loving I guess. This was Jesus pretty much. And just because He got angry with people, just means He wanted others to not get hurt.

Edited by Tacenda

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4 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Loving unconditionally.

I agree, no particular set of scriptures needed, all you need is love.  :)

 

I suppose we could have another thread thread on what love is.

Edited by changed

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1 minute ago, changed said:

I suppose we could have another thread thread on what love is.

Which seems to be the big problem- Godly love being misapplied or defined incorrectly.

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There is no way to determine if Adam was sinless after the fall. Scriptures indicate that he was as prone to human mistakes as the next person. But I do not think that we really have a grasp on what perfect is. We have the dictionary definition as being complete, but is not that a human attempt to characterize something that we cannot really understand fully? After all, Noah is described as being "perfect in his generation" in both Genesis 6:9 and Moses 8:27. Job was described as being "perfect and upright." (Job 1:1,8). Yet neither of those men seemingly attained the level of righteousness as that of the inhabitants of the City of Enoch, Zion. Maybe JHLPROF is on to something about a person being able to be perfect in his or her own sphere.

Glenn

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7 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Loving unconditionally, seeking to help mankind, putting yourself in other's shoes, obeying the first two commandments of the ten, pretty much brings out a perfection in loving I guess. This was Jesus pretty much. And just because He got angry with people, just means He wanted others to not get hurt.

Jesus loved unconditionally.  For everything else he set conditions.

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2 minutes ago, changed said:

I agree, no particular set of scriptures needed, all you need is love.  :)

 

I suppose we could have another thread thread on what love is.

Sorry I couldn't add more to this. I also don't understand people discussing Adam and Eve, if they are supposed to be symbolic only in the temple. I believe in a Jesus, and don't believe He was perfect like a robot or something. I believe He made mistakes because he was humanized. But He loved perfectly to me. 

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2 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry I couldn't add more to this. I also don't understand people discussing Adam and Eve, if they are supposed to be symbolic only in the temple. I believe in a Jesus, and don't believe He was perfect like a robot or something. I believe He made mistakes because he was humanized. But He loved perfectly to me. 

Tacenda, I've come to really admire you over the years.  I've watched you working through your crisis of faith.  I've seen you cross back and forth in your feelings on the restored gospel.

Your recent posts seem to indicate you've made your decision.  I  hope I misread them.

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34 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry I couldn't add more to this. I also don't understand people discussing Adam and Eve, if they are supposed to be symbolic only in the temple. I believe in a Jesus, and don't believe He was perfect like a robot or something. I believe He made mistakes because he was humanized. But He loved perfectly to me. 

Yes, it is all metaphorical - a life for a perfect life, I just find it odd - that neither of them were perfect in the way God is supposedly perfect (perfect = complete, all-knowing, all-powerful etc. etc.)  Jesus was born as an ignorant/ baby like everyone else, grew in stature, had an imperfect mortal body while Adam was supposedly immortal before the fall?  

I do love the sermon on the mount - some beautiful thoughts in there.

Edited by changed

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38 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

obeying the first two commandments of the ten...

Depending on how you count, that would be one of these three:

1) Thou shalt have no other God’s before me.

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.

Interesting choices.

You are likely referring instead to the two great commandments of the New Testament, correct?

Edited by pogi

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31 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Jesus loved unconditionally.  For everything else he set conditions.

Some scriptures seem to set conditions for His love for us:
“If ye keep my commandments, [then] ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father’s commandments, and abide in his love.” (John 15:10)
“If you keep not my commandments, [then] the love of the Father shall not continue with you.” (D&C 95:12;)
“If a man love me, [then] he will keep my words: and my Father will love him.” (John 14:23)
“I love them that love me; and those that seek me … shall find me.” (Prov. 8:17)
The Lord “loveth those who will have him to be their God.” (1 Ne. 17:40)
“He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.” (John 14:21)

His love is perfect, infinite, and universal for all mankind.  God's love might be considered "unconditional" in that no matter how bad you are He will still love you, but a higher form of God's love which compels Him to grant us exaltation in heaven, is "conditional" upon our obedience and love towards Him. 
Divine Love - Russell M. Nelson

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21 minutes ago, JLHPROF said:

Tacenda, I've come to really admire you over the years.  I've watched you working through your crisis of faith.  I've seen you cross back and forth in your feelings on the restored gospel.

Your recent posts seem to indicate you've made your decision.  I  hope I misread them.

 God so loved the world...  the LDS version of the restored gospel is so defensive and prideful, looking down on all the other tribes out there - WWJD?  Jesus ate with the Samaritans, chose a diverse set of apostles - Jesus was not a Pharisee, not a Sadducee (those were the types of people who killed Jesus).

At some point we will all make the decision - if we are following Jesus and his ideas, or if we are following some man-made version, some organization instead... 

Do you have more faith in your particular brand of church? or do you have more faith in a loving god who is no respecter of persons, filled with unconditional love for all?  

Religious organizations - they are all perfect enough to start everyone on their journey, and imperfect enough to give everyone the freedom for personal inquiry and individual testimonies - by the end, those more spiritually attuned, rely on no middle-men.  

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28 minutes ago, pogi said:

Depending on how you count, that would be one of these three:

1) Thou shalt have no other God’s before me.

2) Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image.

3) Thou shalt not take the name of the Lord in vain.

Interesting choices.

You are likely referring instead to the two great commandments of the New Testament, correct?

I can't believe I thought these were the first two, now you know the truth, I'm awful about scripture reading. But atleast these two are the most important commandments of all. :)

 

Mark 12:30-31 New International Version (NIV)

30 Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind and with all your strength.’[a] 31 The second is this: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’[b] There is no commandment greater than these.”

 

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Perfection likely has a spiritual component in addition to a temporal. For me understanding Jesus' spirit was perfect helps me understand how His temporal life was measured. 

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1 hour ago, JLHPROF said:

Tacenda, I've come to really admire you over the years.  I've watched you working through your crisis of faith.  I've seen you cross back and forth in your feelings on the restored gospel.

Your recent posts seem to indicate you've made your decision.  I  hope I misread them.

I pm'd you.

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

Sorry I couldn't add more to this. I also don't understand people discussing Adam and Eve, if they are supposed to be symbolic only in the temple. I believe in a Jesus, and don't believe He was perfect like a robot or something. I believe He made mistakes because he was humanized. But He loved perfectly to me. 

Just because humans do symbolic things (as ritual acts) doesn't make them non-existent.  All humans are imperfect and have imperfect bodies, including Adam, Eve, and Jesus.  All robots are also imperfect.  Scripture does not say that their bodies are perfect, unless you are speaking about celestialized bodies. That Jesus had a human body does not mean that he made a mistake by having a human body.  The human condition is not a mistake, but is a test of our resolve to do the right thing.  Why else do you speak of love?

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3 hours ago, changed said:

Yes, it is all metaphorical - a life for a perfect life, I just find it odd - that neither of them were perfect in the way God is supposedly perfect (perfect = complete, all-knowing, all-powerful etc. etc.)  Jesus was born as an ignorant/ baby like everyone else, grew in stature, had an imperfect mortal body while Adam was supposedly immortal before the fall?  

I do love the sermon on the mount - some beautiful thoughts in there.

I would agree that it were odd if neither Adam nor Jesus were in some significant sense, perfect.

I hold that Jesus grew in stature (both physically and mentally). There is a distinction between experiential knowledge and that which is infused. I don't think you guys believe that Adam was literally created as an adult, but if you did, you would have to acknowledge that he was created with infused knowledge, else he would have had to learn like any baby. Adam's knowledge was limited but undoubtedly perfect, if you hold that he was created by God as an adult. Without learning classroom style, he completely knew everything that was becoming of the first adult man without even parents to teach him, needed to know, by way of a necessarily infused knowledge.

I hold that the Baby Jesus had to gain strength and learn how to articulate words. In that, Jesus was certainly a "baby like everyone else". The difference, as I see it, is that He was the Word...made flesh. (Jn. 1:14). God, the King of Creation, with all of His power, authority, and knowledge, became for our sakes, a "baby like everyone else", but retaining the divine perfections, and hiding His divinity, as it were, in the humblest and neediest of forms, a human infant. If the First Adam had knowledge infused at His creation, why should we assume that when the Word (all-knowing) is made flesh as the Last Adam, that uninfused knowledge is stripped away? I am not saying that these reflections prove my point. I suggest it is something to consider. 

Catholics do not hold that imperfection in Christ is odd. Catholics believe that we have perfection in a Baby. It is astounding, stupendous, and without faith, it is unbelievable what must follow if the Word of God really became flesh, and was born of the Virgin Mary. This is the mystery of Christmas which Catholics are instructed to ponder and celebrate for forty days of each year. It has led to those paintings which non-Catholics find strange, of the infant Jesus with an intelligence in the eyes, but chubby little baby hands, awkwardly raised in blessing.       

3DOP

Edited by 3DOP
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4 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I don't believe in D & C section 132 and a lot of the so called revelations that JS had in the that book.

Do you believe in the New Testament?  1 Cor 15:52-53 (St Paul's so-called revelations):

Quote

In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.  For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.  So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.  O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?

 

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3 minutes ago, 3DOP said:

............................. I don't think you guys believe that Adam was literally created as an adult, .................

Hi Rory,

You are correct.  Brother Brigham made it clear that Adam and Eve were born like everyone else.  The Brethren say that the Genesis Creation story is really highly symbolic and that the "rib" story is figurative.

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