Popular Post cinepro Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 In the Church's recent press release regarding the Temple changes, they made the following claim: Quote Prophets have taught that there will be no end to such adjustments as directed by the Lord to His servants. https://www.mormonnewsroom.org/article/temple-worship This claim appeared to pique Bill Reel's curiousity, as nothing seemed to come to mind that would support such a claim. In the pursuit of knowledge, Bill issued a reward to anyone who could provide quotes supporting the claim. Others pitched in and the bounty climbed to $150. On January 12, Here is how Bill worded the challenge: Quote REWARD IS NOW $150.00 The reward is now at $150 for the two or more quotes from two prophets that substantiates the claim: "Prophets (PLURAL) have taught (INFERS SOMEWHERE ON THE PUBLIC RECORD) that there will be no end (TEMPLE CHANGES WILL BE ONGOING FOREVER) to such (TEMPLE CHANGES) adjustments (THINGS ADDED AND REMOVED) as directed by the Lord to His servants." Interestingly, today it was announced that the challenge has been met and the reward awarded! Here are the quotes that were found: Quote #1 Wilford Woodruff in the April 1894 general conference: “I want to say, as the President of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, that we should now go on and progress. We have not got through revelation. We have not got through the work of God. But at this period we want to go on and fulfill this commandment of God given through Malachi-that the Lord should send Elijah the prophet, "and he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse." Ye sons of men, I say unto you, in the name of Israel's God, those very principles that God has revealed are what have stayed the judgments of the Almighty on the earth. Were it not for these principles, you and I would not be here to-day. We have had prophets and apostles. President Young, who followed President Joseph Smith, led us here. He organized these Temples and carried out the purposes of his calling and office. He laid the foundation of this great Temple on this block, as well as others in the mountains of Israel. What for? That we might carry out these principles of redemption for the dead. He accomplished all that God required at his hands. But he did not receive all the revelations that belong to this work; neither did President Taylor, nor has Wilford Woodruff. There will be no end to this work until it is perfected.” Quote #2 Boyd K. Packer, "The Holy Temple," pages 137-139 "Revelation is a continuous principle in the Church. In one sense the Church is still being organized. As light and knowledge are given, as prophecies are fulfilled and more intelligence is received, another step forward can be taken. [Here he included an analogy of a builder getting plans from an architect all at once, and he said Joseph Smith didn’t get the temple revelation that way.] It was in response to the asking that Joseph Smith the Prophet received each line of the plans for the Church, each detail and each specification. Nor was it fully revealed in his lifetime. Nor has it been yet. The Restoration continues. [Here he included a lengthy quote from Wilford Woodruff which I already submitted, the one where he said “There will be no end to this work till it is perfected.”] In our day there has been a marvelous outpouring of revelations, setting in order this matter or that, and showing the way ahead as the fullness of the everlasting gospel is progressively restored to the earth." Quote #3 https://www.lds.org/…/19…/11/revelation-in-a-changing-world… "There were many such changes. None altered the doctrine. Each change, however small in detail, was carefully and prayerfully considered and approved by the Council of the First Presidency and the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles in a meeting in the temple. All such matters are determined that way. The Lord established that process when He gave revelations relating to temple ordinances. ...... Later, speaking on the same subject of temple ordinances, the Lord affirmed again that He will reveal His will to His authorized servants: “For him to whom these keys are given there is no difficulty in obtaining a knowledge of facts in relation to the salvation of the children of men.” (D&C 128:11.) That principle of revelation has been with the Church ever since. Those who hold the keys have obtained knowledge on what to do. When changes have come, they have come through that process. The Lord does as He said He would do: ....... There will be changes made in the future as in the past. Whether the Brethren make changes or resist them depends entirely upon the instructions they receive through the channels of revelation which were established in the beginning. The doctrines will remain fixed, eternal; the organization, programs, and procedures will be altered as directed by Him whose church this is."" Congratulations to "Kevin Owens", the winner, and thank you to Bill for issuing the challenge. Whether or not Bill actually expected the challenge to be met, I think it was an interesting exercise (and I suspect the writers of the press release themselves might be surprised to see that actual quotes were found...) 6 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 So it was answered before most people knew about it 1 Link to comment
cinepro Posted January 16, 2019 Author Share Posted January 16, 2019 23 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said: So it was answered before most people knew about it The challenge was originally issued on 1/7. I hadn't scrolled down far enough to see the original post. Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, cinepro said: ............................ Bill Reel $150 Challenge to Church Newsroom Quote The reward is now at $150 for the two or more quotes from two prophets that substantiates the claim: "Prophets (PLURAL) have taught (INFERS SOMEWHERE ON THE PUBLIC RECORD) that there will be no end (TEMPLE CHANGES WILL BE ONGOING FOREVER) to such (TEMPLE CHANGES) adjustments (THINGS ADDED AND REMOVED) as directed by the Lord to His servants." .................................. The form in which the challenge was made was improper to begin with. Bill should simply have asked whether changes in temple rites have in fact taken place over time, including during biblical times. Change in temple rites has been a feature of both LDS and Israelite practice since earliest times. The question which interests scholars has always been what changes, and for what purpose? Hugh NIbley's "What is a Temple?" has always been a good place to start -- https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-articles/what-temple . After that, one should look at his "Christian Envy of the Temple" -- https://www.preteristarchive.com/1959_temple_nibley_envy/ . Edited January 16, 2019 by Robert F. Smith 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Duncan Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 Just now, Robert F. Smith said: The form in which the challenge was made was improper to begin with. Bill should simply have asked whether changes in temple rites have in fact taken place over time, including during biblical times. Change in temple rites has been a feature of both LDS and Israelite practice since earliest times. The question which interests scholars has always been what changes, and for what purpose? Hugh NIbley's "What is a Temple?" has always been a good place to start -- https://rsc.byu.edu/archived/selected-articles/what-temple . After that, one should look at his "Christian Envy of the Temple" -- https://www.preteristarchive.com/1959_temple_nibley_envy/ . I'm surprised he asked the question, he also said he's looked into every "nook and cranny" of the Church and knows more than nearly everyone, so why is he asking? he should, by his own admission, already be familiar with this aspect of the Church. 14 Link to comment
blueglass Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) There's this quote by the disaffected John Hyde in 1857, Mormonism: Its Leaders and Designs "There is one thing that is utterly ridiculous, the pretending to claim inspiration as its source. Its signs, tokens, marks and ideas are plagiarized from masonry. The whole affair is being constantly amended and corrected, and [Heber c.] Kimball often says, 'We will get it perfect by-and-bye.'' Edited January 16, 2019 by blueglass 3 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Yawn. Just confirms what I have known and said about Bill from the beginning- that his understanding of the Church is pretty basic and actually from Bruce R and his relatives writings making it up as they go, in contradiction to the spirit of affirming change as Joseph did. It's that old Mormon tradition stuff instead of what the scriptures actually say. It reminds me of McConkie's statement of doctrine that Mormons do not use face cards. Just the whole concept of on-going revelation contradicts the idea that there "will be no changes". Either there can be revealed CHANGES - unprecedented - or there cannot. That seems to be the whole point of on-going revelation!! Even if the quotes were NOT found, on-going revelation revealed it in the statement of the 15 publicized on Jan 2 when the temple changes hit. The idea that on-going revelation requires the precedent of doctrine revealed before is self-contradictory!! "Oh you can have on-going revelation as long as it does not contradict what has been revealed before" is a complete contradiction of on-going revelation in the first place. But it's Reel-ality to him. Edited January 16, 2019 by mfbukowski 4 Link to comment
bluebell Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 If the church newsroom knew about the bet (which I doubt) I bet they would be tickled pink that Bill Reel paid someone to provide their references! That would be like Leah Remini paying someone for references supporting Scientology. 2 Link to comment
Calm Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 44 minutes ago, Robert F. Smith said: Bill should simply have asked whether changes in temple rites have in fact taken place over time, including during biblical times. But that doesn't address what was said in the press release. Perhaps the press release went about it wrongly and should have just pointed to changes over the eons to show consistency, but they appealed to prophets' comments so of course people will ask "what comments" if they are not personally aware of them, 1 Link to comment
Calm Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 45 minutes ago, Duncan said: I'm surprised he asked the question, he also said he's looked into every "nook and cranny" of the Church and knows more than nearly everyone, so why is he asking? he should, by his own admission, already be familiar with this aspect of the Church. I agree if one claims to be an expert on the Church, they should be aware of the quotes or find them relatively easily given they would likely know the context in which they could be found. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post juliann Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 So Bill, the expert in all things Mormon, still hasn’t gotten the memo that you can find just about anything in copious LDS writings/records? I couldn’t get past the misuse of “infer.” It’s like screeching chalk on a blackboard. 7 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 34 minutes ago, blueglass said: There's this quote by the disaffected John Hyde in 1857, Mormonism: Its Leaders and Designs "There is one thing that is utterly ridiculous, the pretending to claim inspiration as its source. Its signs, tokens, marks and ideas are plagiarized from masonry. The whole affair is being constantly amended and corrected, and [Heber c.] Kimball often says, 'We will get it perfect by-and-bye.'' Yep- I hope this gets us all past the Masonry thing. Using the same cultural symbols as others have used is like using an "R" as a symbol even though others have used "R"'s before! One does not make up a new private language for everything one wants to say- no one would get the meaning without the context. That is simply called "language" Christianity is not new to signs- Catholics genuflect, and point their folded hands to heaven and do the sign of the cross before praying and no one worries about where those signs originated. In older versions of the initiatories an ostensible sign of the cross was done across the back and shoulders of the patron. Similar practices in Orthodoxy also include similar signs. Symbols are a language- it is not surprising that they would have many possible "sources" in the culture 2 Link to comment
JAHS Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) Wilford Woodruff made a change, or maybe it was a correction, concerning the law of adoption where people were sealing themselves to other non related people: "I have prayed over this matter, and my brethren have. We have felt, as President Taylor said, that we have got to have more revelation concerning sealing under the law of adoption. Well, what are these changes? One of them is the principle of adoption. In the commencement of adopting men and women in the temple at Nauvoo, a great many persons were adopted to different men who were not of the lineage of their fathers, and there was a spirit manifested by some in that work that was not of God. I want every man who presides over a temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father. When a man receives the endowments, adopt him to his father; not to Wilford Woodruff, nor to any other man outside the lineage of his fathers. That is the will of God to this people... (May 28, 1894) There was the law of retribution or oath of vengeance that was removed where members were to pray the Father to avenge the blood of the prophets and righteous men that has been shed, etc. In the 1920's the length of the ceremony was reduced from 6 hours to 3 hours And, believe it or not, another element disappeared in 1927 when kissing over the altar during vicarious sealings for the dead was abolished. I wonder if this kissing was going on between unmarried couples? There have been a lot of changes over the decades so I don't know of any prophet who would claim that elements of the temple ceremonies would never change. Edited January 16, 2019 by JAHS Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 5 minutes ago, juliann said: So Bill, the expert in all things Mormon, still hasn’t gotten the memo that you can find just about anything in copious LDS writings/records? I couldn’t get past the misuse of “infer.” It’s like screeching chalk on a blackboard. Yeah that always drives me nuts as well. It's basic vocabulary as far as I am concerned and I don't understand why people confuse those two. 2 Link to comment
mfbukowski Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 1 minute ago, JAHS said: Wilford Woodruff made a change, or maybe it was a correction, concerning the law of adoption where people were sealing themselves to other non related people: "I have prayed over this matter, and my brethren have. We have felt, as President Taylor said, that we have got to have more revelation concerning sealing under the law of adoption. Well, what are these changes? One of them is the principle of adoption. In the commencement of adopting men and women in the temple at Nauvoo, a great many persons were adopted to different men who were not of the lineage of their fathers, and there was a spirit manifested by some in that work that was not of God. I want every man who presides over a temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father. When a man receives the endowments, adopt him to his father; not to Wilford Woodruff, nor to any other man outside the lineage of his fathers. That is the will of God to this people... (May 28, 1894) There was the law of retribution or oath of vengeance that was removed where members were to pray the Father to avenge the blood of the prophets and righteous men that has been shed, etc. In the 1920's the length of the ceremony was reduced from 6 hours to 3 hours And, believe it or not, another element disappeared in 1927 when kissing over the altar during vicarious sealings for the dead was abolished. I wonder if this kissing was going on between unmarried couples? There have been a lot of changes over the decades so I don't know of any prophet who would claim that the basic important elements of the temple ceremonies would never change. Agreed. It's funny that it is worded that one should be "adopted" to one's own natural father! So even then the concept itself seems not to have been fully developed. Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 So did he actually pay up? 1 Link to comment
LoudmouthMormon Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 Indeed. That's the real news here - did $150 change hands? Link to comment
helix Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 The conversation came from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ag5geb/bill_reels_150_challenge_to_substantiate_the_fp/ee4ue4p/ and here: https://www.reddit.com/r/mormon/comments/ag5geb/bill_reels_150_challenge_to_substantiate_the_fp/ee4nk8q/ Bill did not seem particularly persuaded and excited about declaring his contest had been won. Kevin Owen (and another user, John H2), supplied several other quotes which weren't deemed acceptable by Bill's standards. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post CV75 Posted January 16, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 16, 2019 Bill who? 5 Link to comment
CV75 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 hours ago, juliann said: So Bill, the expert in all things Mormon, still hasn’t gotten the memo that you can find just about anything in copious LDS writings/records? I couldn’t get past the misuse of “infer.” It’s like screeching chalk on a blackboard. Note to self: Don't get excommunicated. Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 So does this mean someone will be pulling down all the Joseph Smith vs Russel M. Nelson memes that have been gleefully posted all over the Apostatesphere over the past two weeks ... and apologising for being dead wrong? 2 Link to comment
Hamba Tuhan Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said: That's the real news here - did $150 change hands? I note that Mr Reel is soliciting contributions on his Facebook page to help cover the cost of paying out the wager ... 4 Link to comment
Avatar4321 Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 8 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I note that Mr Reel is soliciting contributions on his Facebook page to help cover the cost of paying out the wager ... Then perhaps he shouldn’t have made it 2 Link to comment
Duncan Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 12 minutes ago, Hamba Tuhan said: I note that Mr Reel is soliciting contributions on his Facebook page to help cover the cost of paying out the wager ... 🤣🤣🤣🤣 2 Link to comment
JLHPROF Posted January 17, 2019 Share Posted January 17, 2019 3 hours ago, JAHS said: "I have prayed over this matter, and my brethren have. We have felt, as President Taylor said, that we have got to have more revelation concerning sealing under the law of adoption. Well, what are these changes? One of them is the principle of adoption. In the commencement of adopting men and women in the temple at Nauvoo, a great many persons were adopted to different men who were not of the lineage of their fathers, and there was a spirit manifested by some in that work that was not of God. I want every man who presides over a temple to see performed from this day henceforth and forever, unless the Lord Almighty commands otherwise, is, let every man be adopted to his father. When a man receives the endowments, adopt him to his father; not to Wilford Woodruff, nor to any other man outside the lineage of his fathers. That is the will of God to this people... (May 28, 1894) I have to wonder how the exception clause would play out in today's Church. I believe it is still practiced in a way today when adopted children and blended families are sealed. The ordinance still exists, much like the plural marriage ceremonies. It is just not the current default. Link to comment
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