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Status of Discovery in Denson Lawsuit

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3 hours ago, Calm said:

Yes, the dossier had most of the stories, though not the details.  And the existence of the dossier drew massive criticism, so few can claim not to be aware of it and its accusations if they were paying attention from the beginning.

When .I used to do a search on the bishop lawsuit and "razor blades", iirc the only thing that came up was the original Fox13 story and a few threads here where we had talked about it.  

https://fox13now.com/2018/03/21/family-of-former-lds-mission-president-accused-of-sexual-assault-responds-to-allegations/

It has always astonished me that those activists that accepted her as a poster child for their causes never bother to ask her for details to investigate, even if only to exonerate her.  How difficult would it have been when she was being interviewed to have simply asked for the time and place so they could have checked out the police report...especially when so many critics were applauding taking BYU Police to court to get an unredacted file on Bishop and others condemning the Church for coverup by not sharing info about Bishop.  Instead the vast majority appeared to be satisfied with her and her lawyer's remarks that she owned her mistakes of the past and some of the claims were misrepresentations, basically telling everyone to move on, it was all over with, in the past, nothing to see here, folks....even after she had just been charged with an identity theft.

There were a few voices, but when .I saw them speak up there also seemed several willing to label them protectors of sexual predators and church defenders even though they were quite critical of the Church at the same time they were urging people to take a closer look at Denson.

It creates, imo, a real credibility issue for those who claim to want only the truth no matter how hard it may be for some, but were so willing to ignore it when it suited their agenda until it was impossible to do so.

Hi Calm,

I'm not sure who you keep referring to here.  There is tons of tragedy in this story, on many sides.  I dont' see how Denson likely being a con who suffers from mental illness really exonerates the Church nor Bishop.  It's pretty scary stuff.  It seems apparent, for instance, that Bishop had a secreted little room in the MTC wherein he seemed to have pornography breaks--at the very least.  That a number of people at the MTC knew about his secret room, and there were some allegations beyond ms. Denson's about him and his activities.  We also know that the Church was made aware of this room, and possible pornography viewing, because Denson's Bishop (a representative for the Church for any victim under him) from decades ago confirmed he was told about it and dismissed it.  that seems to have been a main issue people were taking with this.  The Church knew about bad behavior, or at least were made aware of allegations of it, and seemingly did nothing.  By Bishop's own admission, as well, he got very inappropriate with young women while at the MTC and he admitted (which is concerning) he could have assaulted a young lady but has forgotten.  He asked a young woman to bare herself to him, he claimed, and he apparently did something inappropriate with another sister whom he invited into his home, at that time as MTC president.  I don't know there's a lot here for anyone who wishes to defend the Church or attack Denson's claims to get all smug about.  

"It creates, imo, a real credibility issue for those who claim to want only the truth no matter how hard it may be for some, but were so willing to ignore it when it suited their agenda until it was impossible to do so."

I don't understand this.  Does anyone know what happened ultimately?  Why does one side have credibility issues when the other seems just as unwilling to accept the whole story?  Her story added up.  I thought it sounded fairly credible as it was pieced together.  I completely disregarded past activities because that was all unrelated in my mind.  I'm foolish to have accepted her story so readily.  I tend to do that with people when they bare themselves and open up (not an excuse, just an explanation).  I listened to every defense of the Church I could find (so much for the didn't bother to investigate).  I went the rounds with Smac as I recall and it seemed to me he and I agreed on some of the material pieces, even if we concluded somewhat differently (and I say somewhat honestly since he seemed to think something inappropriate happened, which I agreed with).  But I don't know that all of this exonerates Bishop nor the Church, so I don't see why anyone would get all smug about it.  

And, yes, I still agree, the dossier, as leaked, was inappropriate.  And I tend to have tons of sympathy and pity for those who suffer mental illnesses of various sorts, even as they seem to take advantage and manipulate.  I've seen it and have been negatively effected by it my whole life and still go back for more.  So, I feel sympathy for Denson still.  

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, stemelbow said:

Hi Calm,

I'm not sure who you keep referring to here.  There is tons of tragedy in this story, on many sides.  I dont' see how Denson likely being a con who suffers from mental illness really exonerates the Church nor Bishop.  It's pretty scary stuff.  It seems apparent, for instance, that Bishop had a secreted little room in the MTC wherein he seemed to have pornography breaks--at the very least.  That a number of people at the MTC knew about his secret room, and there were some allegations beyond ms. Denson's about him and his activities.  We also know that the Church was made aware of this room, and possible pornography viewing, because Denson's Bishop (a representative for the Church for any victim under him) from decades ago confirmed he was told about it and dismissed it.  that seems to have been a main issue people were taking with this.  The Church knew about bad behavior, or at least were made aware of allegations of it, and seemingly did nothing.  By Bishop's own admission, as well, he got very inappropriate with young women while at the MTC and he admitted (which is concerning) he could have assaulted a young lady but has forgotten.  He asked a young woman to bare herself to him, he claimed, and he apparently did something inappropriate with another sister whom he invited into his home, at that time as MTC president.  I don't know there's a lot here for anyone who wishes to defend the Church or attack Denson's claims to get all smug about.  

"It creates, imo, a real credibility issue for those who claim to want only the truth no matter how hard it may be for some, but were so willing to ignore it when it suited their agenda until it was impossible to do so."

I don't understand this.  Does anyone know what happened ultimately?  Why does one side have credibility issues when the other seems just as unwilling to accept the whole story?  Her story added up.  I thought it sounded fairly credible as it was pieced together.  I completely disregarded past activities because that was all unrelated in my mind.  I'm foolish to have accepted her story so readily.  I tend to do that with people when they bare themselves and open up (not an excuse, just an explanation).  I listened to every defense of the Church I could find (so much for the didn't bother to investigate).  I went the rounds with Smac as I recall and it seemed to me he and I agreed on some of the material pieces, even if we concluded somewhat differently (and I say somewhat honestly since he seemed to think something inappropriate happened, which I agreed with).  But I don't know that all of this exonerates Bishop nor the Church, so I don't see why anyone would get all smug about it.  

And, yes, I still agree, the dossier, as leaked, was inappropriate.  And I tend to have tons of sympathy and pity for those who suffer mental illnesses of various sorts, even as they seem to take advantage and manipulate.  I've seen it and have been negatively effected by it my whole life and still go back for more.  So, I feel sympathy for Denson still.  

And the church admitted that there was another victim.

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Edited by Tacenda

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Posted (edited)
35 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

And the church admitted that there was another victim.

 

Multiple victims, recorded interview with Bishop admitting guilt - things were not handled well, and he should not have been serving in the MTC. Bashing McKenna does nothing to diminish the problems.
 

I have seen it time and time again - those who are abused, especially when young, or have grown up with it in their family - often they gravitate towards other unhealthy relationships as well.  People get all mixed up on what love is supposed to be, feel stained an unworthy to embrace healthy relationships, and can often lead to a string of messiness.  Those who have been silenced - told to be quiet and not say anything, tend to jerk the other direction and cry out the louder.  We are used to receiving information from academically prestigious, sophisticated, refined sources.  An abuse victim often does not fit this bill - but there is still information to be gleaned from it.  

The point of speaking out is to stop abuse, change policy, warn others, address problem areas.  I think the culture of the church trusts those called to leadership positions a little too much.  "Follow the prophet" is sung in primary, adults sustain local and all leaders - and mix this up with their devotion to God.  People mix up support and trust in church leaders with trust and faith in God.  Anyone who has read the NT can understand the frailties of God-appointed leaders - doubting Thomas, Peter denying Christ, apostles who did not stay awake, could not walk on water, could not heal, did not understand most of what Jesus was teaching - fallen unreliable leaders force everyone to go directly to the Savior.  Hopefully all of this will put "leaders" back in their proper place, and allow everyone more freedom to think and act for themselves - take ownership of their own agency... ownership of their own personal testimony.  There is no borrowed light.   Leaders or no leaders, we all need to act on our own agency... the war in heaven was over agency...  the chance to stand on our own two feet.

Edited by changed
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The coverup will never change.  It is the coverup no matter to what extent.

Yes, to those TBM's here savoring over a delicious meal...I own it   Eating crow for many weeks.  But my heart breaks for trust/faith in humanity on a different level.

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1 minute ago, Jeanne said:

... Yes, to those TBM's here savoring over a delicious meal ...

Who would that be?  I think this is a travesty all around, and there have been absolutely no winners. :(

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Tacenda said:

And the church admitted that there was another victim.

They admitted there was another complaint, not necessarily a victim...though it definitely shifts it to more likely imo.  There does seem to be a connection with that woman and the inappropriate behaviour, but it is not made explicit.  I would really like to know what she said...I doubt we will though since I doubt this goes to trial now,  Vernon has likely spent a ton of money and won't get anything imo unless it gets settled.

There may be a problem with Bishop's confession to police being tainted by his conversation with Denson, imo.  The story of his wife exposing herself at the dinner table could have been morphed into asking Denson to expose herself.  That Denson denied that happened to her puts into question his memory.  A doctor's report on his mental ability would be useful, but doubt we will get it.  

I don't see Bishop as a helpless victim, never have.  I don't like him, he blames his wives for his problems rather than owning them.  He describes them as having major issues.  If his stories are accurate, he has shared intimate details of their lives, what should be theirs and theirs alone to share with others carelessly, to make himself look good.

He has some hangups with sex and women at this point from how he talked in the recording.  My problem is we don't know if that was him back in the MTC or if he's rewritten it in his head for some reason.  I would need to listen to the recording again now I know how elaborate Denson's schemes can get to see how much is leading by her and how much is volunteered as well.  He went into a  convoluted story about his second wife's hangups prior to him knowing who Denson was, so there is something weird going on there.  That isn't the kind of story a competent person gushes out to a total stranger without provocation, imo. The gushing have been a result of the drugs he was on or a more permanent mental state.

Edited by Calm
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, changed said:

he should not have been serving in the MTC. 

Why not?  Nothing he confessed to save something as a young missionary he describes as nothing to tell iirc happened before the MTC.

His one admission was a frisky backrub that occurred while MTC President and appears not to have been reported at the time by anyone.

Appt canceled....

Edited by Calm
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22 minutes ago, Calm said:

Why not?  Nothing he confessed to save something as a young missionary he describes as nothing to tell iirc happened before the MTC.

His one admission was a frisky backrub that occurred while MTC President and appears not to have been reported at the time by anyone.

Appt canceled....

 

and here I thought the Spirit was supposed to guide and protect people at places like the MTC - I guess not.  

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5 hours ago, changed said:

could not walk on water,

You're faulting Peter for not being able to walk on water?  Could you? :)

 

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

Given the extremes that it is now known that Denson will go to because of the details in the police reports including risking the life of her baby and possibly (Norton has not confirmed it) even planting drugs on her own daughters, I think questioning everything that Denson has been involved in would be seen as a given, even all the way back to the alleged abuse by her stepfather before she joined the Church.

I don't say this to make excuses for the Church as I think the process needed to be improved back then and now, but because it is justice to give those who are accused a fair examination and examining the credibility of an accuser is part of that.  I accepted that at least Denson had been assaulted somehow recently because I had assumed the razor blades had just been found in the icing of the cake and there was no evidence of actual self harm, but once we know that line got crossed in the past, that she likely even forced herself to swallow the blades without them cutting her mouth (since she made an excuse of having nothing to chew by not only just taking a bite of the frosting, but removing the chocolate chips in it) so it was reasonable she didn't spit them out before they could do significant harm (I would like to know details about whether the laxative as first and lastly recommended was as dangerous as she claimed as well...no surgery with everything just naturally passing wouldn't have been viewed as damaging as something leaving a 15 inch scar), everything becomes questionable in my opinion.

If so, we need to separate out everything we 'learned' from Denson with what we learned independently.  We know she was called out of class to have sessions with Bishop.  From the story he fluently told in the recording, I think it reasonable to assume he counseled sisters he saw as vulnerable based on a history of past trauma, most likely sexual.  He described it as being proactive because the sisters were being triggered by something (probably the stress of being out of familiar surroundings and lifestyle).  He says he pushed to get a professional counselor, but was refused...so it is possible he was trying to fill that role rather than leaving it to the bishops alone, though why he would assume he could do a better job he didn't explain.  Denson said they first met as a group.  Perhaps he saw that as what was different.  He successfully got a professional after the attempted suicide of one of these sisters.  Now this is a story by Bishop and since I think we should apply the same standard of skepticism to him as his stories all have the commonality of him at center stage as the victim/hero, he may never have pushed for a professional and only used the alleged breakdowns of the sisters as excuses to groom, but at this point we don't know.  Because there is a known second complainant, it shifts his position to more suspect, but no details have been released, so I don't see what else can be judged.

There was a room used as a second office.  That is what we know from other sources besides Bishop or Denson.  We don't now what was in it at the the time Bishop was there (the MTC worker only saw it after Bishop was gone and it may have been used by others).  Denson may have known of it because she was shown, someone else was shown it and she heard of it from them, or Bishop might even had told her about it.  She could have seen the details she supplied, been told they were there, or added them.  No one can confirm there was actually porn there as far as we currently know.  Independently, we only have Bishop Leavitt's story he was told by Denson there was a room (confirming its existence imo) where she was shown porn (which may have been true or false because there is no confirmation from anyone else....and he says he told no one else.  Denson herself says she didn't see what the tapes were, iirc, so if she is being accurate I don't think one can claim he watched porn there (I think with Leavitt's testimony though we need to consider why she would change her story now from what she originally claimed; there is a possibility she sees herself as more appealing victim if she hadn't agreed to watch porn with Bishop).

So at the very least what we have is a second office that Bishop used.  The mention of porn came through Denson only as far as we know back in 87? and therefore must be held in doubt until confirmed independently.

Bishop's behaviour with other women...if you read the transcript and listen he passively agrees with her (says yes mostly) about molesting women, but is strongly refusing to admit to rape and begins to explain what he remembers...at which point Denson interrupts and never returns to, so we never hear his side of the story.  Context of his agreement needs to include at least two things....he was on pain medication, it having been only two days since surgery (likely not a lot if they let him out of the hospital and his caregiver who drove him---his exwife, I believe, was willing to leave on his own---but if he wasn't used to it there was likely an impact and perhaps significant) and he was aware that Denson had previously threatened to kill him with a gun, seems to me anyone intelligent would be at least cautious about upsetting someone who had done that.  I think a sign that he wasn't able to fully care for himself was he needed to ask to use the bathroom and Denson reacted as if that was her responsibility to handled in that she said she would get someone to help, iirc.  What competent grown man acts that way, what person would treat a competent individual in such a way?

So I think one has to be wary at accepting anything Bishop says in the recording, both what he accepts and what he downplays.  And same with Denson given her established history of elaborate and extreme lies.  Bishop does volunteer information in long stories he gets caught up in (though at least the one he tells about getting counseling comes across as a familiar 'war story' to me), but all the details he provides save one are with women he is watching in public, with no indication he instigated or did anything but look.  The one questionable case he describes is limited to a "frisky backrub" (completely inappropriate given she was a sister missionary, they were alone, he was married, and she was there due to a suicide attempt).  There is a possibility the backrub was asked for....still very wrong, imo, but not sure if it automatically qualified as abuse even with the power dynamics.  His stories present him as a passive person in my view, things happen to him even when trying to present himself as an active do-gooder.

So what does the Church coverup amount to that we can know for sure?  Bishop Leavitt is told something.  We can't know at this point if he lied about not reporting it or not.  There is no evidence that Denson had a meeting with Elder Asay.  She, iirc, uses her exhusband as a witness, but given her documented lies, I don't think we can assume that is true since we haven't heard from him (she also has set him up as a liar in her stories about him as a cheater, so if he denies it, she is well placed to say he is doing that because of a grudge).  The Church confirms she reported an assault in 2010 as well as volunteering the info of another woman complaining the same year.  The Church confirms nothing was done. Reason given was that he denied it and there was no other evidence besides the complaints. We know his books were at Deseretbooks so it appears the info was not taken seriously enough to reach out to anyone else to be cautious.  We know standard practice is not to share discipline choices with complainants (something I disagree with).  

Bottom line, imo, is I would like very much to know why two complaints in the same year didn't result in more action (was it simply left in the hands of locals or did an investigation take place into the background of the accusers or Bishop?).  If we accept Leavitt's account, there was no church coverup, just a crap decision by a local leader to ignore a complaint.

Got to go...

I’m confused by much of what you say.  I’ll start by wondering why you throw out his admissions.  I don’t think drugs nor fear was expressed in that initial interview.  Surprised to see you dismiss him on those bases.  

Im surprised to see you reject the notion that her bishop was a representative of the church, at least for her and her fellow congregants.  Of course it was crap but it was his role as representing the church in which he made that.  

Other than that I didn’t mention coverup or abuse.  I thought the case for porn was obvious but am not really willing to go back to find out.  With all of this I think there are plenty to question but a big part of me would like to see this die so not sure I’ll go beyond memory.  

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

 

Are you not aware that he had heart surgery two days before the recording and his son said he was medicated?

Are you not aware that he was told by Denson relatively early in the recording she had threatened to kill him?  (And his mind goes to wondering if she has connections with a biker gang...which could be interpreted as a memory of a sister telling him she had or could have been a random construction of him trying to figure out why she had a gun or would threaten him...his thought might go "sounds like something someone in a biker gang would do").  Here is a man sitting in a wheelchair iirc, who can't even take himself to the bathroom when he needs to go.  Don't you see it as possibly he might have been fearful?

I am not dismissing his comments (if I was, I wouldn't be in a position to say I don't like him), but saying caution needs to be taken.

If you define "Church cover up" as the actions of any leader, including on his own, one time event, then I agree there was a cover up.  It would not be the word I would use.  I would say that Bishop Leavitt failed in his duty to protect someone he should have because of personal prejudice and favoritism.

I generally see "coverup" as knowing there was something wrong and intentionally hiding it and I would define a Church coverup as involving multiple leaders conspiring together, not someone ignoring a complaint they saw as dramatizing from one person.

I’m not getting into it.  Surprised to see what appeared to be some partisan smugness but really not interested but n arguing it.  All the best

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Posted (edited)

Just an FYI, I did a "search" of the transcript of the recording Denson made in 2017 with "p-rn", "p-rn-gr-phy", "video", "videos" and nothing came up.  "Movies" is all she said with no description of what type of movies. (Included vowels, left out here to get past 403 error)

Iirc, it was Leavitt who first mentioned porn (though some of the stuff Bishop talked about could have been porn, could have been fantasizing, could have been something else...very vague when talking about what he did wrong through the interview, imo).

It should also be pointed out that post Bishop the room in the basement was cleaned by student janitors. Perhaps it was still used on occasion as a spare/second quiet office..  (If it was just a storage room, then why not empty it and leave it alone for the most part?)   If this happened as well during Bishop's tenure, calling it "secret" is inaccurate and inflammatory.  There is no reason to assume it was secret even if not well known.

Edited by Calm
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Soap Opera writers would be hard pressed to come up with a more convoluted plot than this presents. Perhaps we will find it was all " just a dream sequence " a la Dynasty . 

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11 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

Soap Opera writers would be hard pressed to come up with a more convoluted plot than this presents. Perhaps we will find it was all " just a dream sequence " a la Dynasty . 

I was shocked when I learned the details of the police report.  I had read the razor blade report as the police finding the metal shards in the cake itself, not that she had swallowed them.  I didn't think she had physically self harmed (there is a post that I say I am leaning towards believing she was assaulted based on that iirc).  The nitty gritty details are horrendous.  I am wondering how she managed to keep shared custody of her kids at this point, so I am thinking we still don't have enough of the story to judge decently or I overestimate what the Child Protection agencies will do.

I would have much preferred it as left with frauds that benefitted her, but did not harm.  I don't see it as making much difference in terms of the Church's case, but much less issues for her near and dear.

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Calm said:

I was shocked when I learned the details of the police report.  I had read the razor blade report as the police finding the metal shards in the cake itself, not that she had swallowed them.  I didn't think she had physically self harmed (there is a post that I say I am leaning towards believing she was assaulted based on that iirc).  The nitty gritty details are horrendous.  I am wondering how she managed to keep shared custody of her kids at this point, so I am thinking we still don't have enough of the story to judge decently or I overestimate what the Child Protection agencies will do.

I would have much preferred it as left with frauds that benefitted her, but did not harm.  I don't see it as making much difference in terms of the Church's case, but much less issues for her near and dear.

The kids...this whole thing, what is right, what is wrong, what is truth???  It comes down to these children.  Whatever really happened or happens next..I hope I can extend enough mercy for McKenna because of these children.  This is my priority thought in the whole mess right now.  What they have seen and been through and exposed to doesn't matter with truth.  It is a part of them now.  My hope is that she gets help and that the children will be safe...in their minds..in their spirits and in their future.

Edited by Jeanne
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6 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

The kids...this whole thing, what is right, what is wrong, what is truth???  It comes down to these children.  Whatever really happened or happens next..I hope I can extend enough mercy for McKenna because of these children.  This is my priority thought in the whole mess right now.  What they have seen and been through and exposed to doesn't matter with truth.  It is a part of them now.  My hope is that she gets help and that the children will be safe...in their minds..in their spirits and in their future.

I agree.  I haven't really wanted to talk about them because it just feels I am dragging them into things they shouldn't have to be involved in, but their situation highly colors how I look at the whole.

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1 hour ago, Calm said:

 Does being abused excuse abusing others?  Seems to me lying so that a man is jailed for months on false charges before being acquitted is abuse.  And to do it to multiple people is a habit of abuse.

Should not people speak out when they see abuse of any kind?  Should we not warn others when we encounter an abuser?  If not in Denson's case, why not?

Agreed. We hear talk about how generations of dads will beat their children, but while we might have sympathy in that family for the last dad to have been both abused and abuser we don't just keep letting him abuse kids. We try to put a stop to a cycle.

So if Denson did suffer abuse while young then we should try to put a stop to the cycle now.

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Posted (edited)
18 hours ago, ksfisher said:

You're faulting Peter for not being able to walk on water?  Could you? :)

 

 

No respecter of persons - "leaders" are no better than the rest of us.  Peter not walking on water, Judas betraying Christ, Bishop at the MTC center - we're all stumbling around, with followers learning they cannot and should not rely on anyone else's arms of flesh, and leaders learning they best thing they can encourage anyone else to do is to be self-reliant ;)...  

 

Edited by changed

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11 hours ago, Calm said:
On 5/29/2019 at 10:00 AM, changed said:

I have seen it time and time again - those who are abused, especially when young, or have grown up with it in their family - often they gravitate towards other unhealthy relationships as well. 

 Does being abused excuse abusing others?  Seems to me lying so that a man is jailed for months on false charges before being acquitted is abuse.  And to do it to multiple people is a habit of abuse.

Should not people speak out when they see abuse of any kind?  Should we not warn others when we encounter an abuser?  If not in Denson's case, why not?

No it doesn't excuse abusing others.  Yes people should speak out.  Yes we should warn others.    I don't think anyone is saying past abuse is an excuse, just an explanation, a factor in why abuse happens.  

Is it important to consider in the first place?  Absolutely.  We're commanded to forgive all men, even our abusers.  That job is made a bit easier when we can look at evil perpetrator x, and realize they were once young innocent child x getting abused.   Outside of religion, being able to deal with your strong negative feelings towards your abuser is often a goal of the theraputic healing process.  Again, understanding that abusers were probably abused themselves, can help.  Finally, it's important to understand that if you are abused, you're now at a higher risk of becoming one yourself, and an unfair burden has been placed on you to make sure you become something besides the next link in the chain. 

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Posted (edited)
On 5/29/2019 at 10:00 AM, changed said:


 

I have seen it time and time again - those who are abused, especially when young, or have grown up with it in their family - often they gravitate towards other unhealthy relationships as well.  People get all mixed up on what love is supposed to be, feel stained an unworthy to embrace healthy relationships, and can often lead to a string of messiness.   

This is true, but I am seeing it being used to explain Denson's fraud nonstop. So I'm going to ask again. Why do you believe this claim but discard others? Almost everything she said was taken at face value, with no demand for substantiation, which is why the exmo community was so hoodwinked.

What proof is there that her story of childhood abuse is anymore real than her rape concoctions?

For the record, NO one is saying that Bishop is blameless. (edited for meaning, thanks Calm.)

Edited by juliann
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Posted (edited)

 Moved to new thread.

Edited by Bernard Gui

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