Missionary work

[sunstoned]

9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Some things get better and some things get worse.

I do see our current state as dangerous though. I think a lot of the good stuff is a feeling of safety we have gotten from not facing real physical conflict in a real threat to our way of life in decades. I think the inclusiveness will fade away if a real threat emerges. Look at how people went to pieces after 9/11 and that was not much of a threat.

I would tend to agree that our society is fragile and things could change in a heartbeat.   But it has always been that way.  Human nature. 

[Avatar4321]

11 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I agree with the basic underlying foundational ideas here, but I think this overly, way overly, simplifies the opiate epidemic.

Oh I have no doubt that there’s much more to the epidemic than that. I just think that without Spiritual healing that it can never be  solved

[Stargazer]

On 1/11/2019 at 12:24 AM, SouthernMo said:

I’ve found preaching Christianity (Atonement) rather than a focus on Mormonism (Joseph Smith, Book of Mormon, Word of Wisdom, etc...) is more effective. 

With Christianity being less and less of a common thing in the world, including in the US, this is actually not a bad idea at all.  Plenty of people now who do not count themselves Christians by default.

[Stargazer]

On 1/11/2019 at 3:34 AM, Avatar4321 said:

How do we bring the fullness of the gospel into their lives if we ignore important parts?

What happens if you find yourself among non-Christian cultures?  You almost have to start with Christ.  The Book of Mormon is a second witness of Jesus Christ, but if they haven't really heard of Christ yet, it might be helpful to start with the Bible.  If they don't know Christ's story, especially including the crucifixion, the resurrection and the atonement, your first priority would appear to be to start there.

[Stargazer]

On 1/11/2019 at 4:48 AM, sunstoned said:

 

I do not accept the old standard mormon chestnut that the world is getting more wicked day by day.   Reality just does not support that.  While we are not perfect, right now, this very minute, is the best time to be alive on this planet. This is a much better time than any other time in history.  Hunger is down, disease is down and crime is down.   Here is one example:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

It is true that more and more people are finding religion, including Mormonism, unattractive.  It is also true  that more people have become more inclusive and have shown increased support of basic civil human rights. This however, does does not equate to wickedness. 

You know, the USA is not the world.  It's different in other countries.  In the UK, where I am now, violent crime is on the increase, especially in London.

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/10/2019 at 9:48 PM, sunstoned said:

 

I do not accept the old standard mormon chestnut that the world is getting more wicked day by day.   Reality just does not support that.  While we are not perfect, right now, this very minute, is the best time to be alive on this planet. This is a much better time than any other time in history.  Hunger is down, disease is down and crime is down.   Here is one example:

https://www.statista.com/statistics/191219/reported-violent-crime-rate-in-the-usa-since-1990/

It is true that more and more people are finding religion, including Mormonism, unattractive.  It is also true  that more people have become more inclusive and have shown increased support of basic civil human rights. This however, does does not equate to wickedness. 

What does wickedness have to do with hunger, disease and even overall crime?  Wickedness is determined by a violation of God's law and not mans law. Its a violation of the mans law to drive over the speed limit but that is not wickedness.  Just perhaps foolishness.  However many things are wicked but legal.  Gay marriage, gambling, pornography, ect are legal.  Even prostitution is legal in some parts.   Secularism does not bring people closer to righteousness.  Secularism does not bring the power of the atonement to make people clean.  Our society is better today than other times but that is more due to technology than righteousness.  Want to see our advanced society degenerate into a barbaric state quickly.  Take away electricity and things crash and burn in not too much time.

Edited January 13, 2019 by carbon dioxide

[JLHPROF]

6 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

What does wickedness have to do with hunger, disease and even overall crime?  Wickedness is determined by a violation of God's law and not mans law. 

This exactly.  When we say the world is increasing in wickedness a statistical reduction in violent crime or poverty is irrelevant.

Wickedness and righteousness are measured in how near or far from God we are, in how disobedient or obedient to him we are.  The world definitely is moving away from God, not nearer.  Society says as much often.

[Hamba Tuhan]

On 1/12/2019 at 2:36 PM, carbon dioxide said:

Not sure that is true.  They have time in fact I bet many of them spend a lot of time on social media.  They may not have time for a discussions or become too involved with something but they can spare 5 minutes for a spiritual message.

I'm not sure you've spent much time around people who are genuinely struggling. People who don't know where their next meal is coming from don't have access to social media, as a rule. And though five minutes may exist in their lives, it's the constant spectre of fear and worry and hunger that crowds their thoughts.

[sunstoned]

12 hours ago, carbon dioxide said:

What does wickedness have to do with hunger, disease and even overall crime?  Wickedness is determined by a violation of God's law and not mans law. Its a violation of the mans law to drive over the speed limit but that is not wickedness.  Just perhaps foolishness.  However many things are wicked but legal.  Gay marriage, gambling, pornography, ect are legal.  Even prostitution is legal in some parts.   Secularism does not bring people closer to righteousness.  Secularism does not bring the power of the atonement to make people clean.  Our society is better today than other times but that is more due to technology than righteousness.  Want to see our advanced society degenerate into a barbaric state quickly.  Take away electricity and things crash and burn in not too much time.

I'm sorry, I was confused.  I didn't know we were judging the world by your version of wickedness and righteousness.  

P.S.  I know many people who are secularist who live charitable lives and do just fine without religion.

[Stargazer]

18 hours ago, sunstoned said:

I'm sorry, I was confused.  I didn't know we were judging the world by your version of wickedness and righteousness.  

Well, now you know.

18 hours ago, sunstoned said:

P.S.  I know many people who are secularist who live charitable lives and do just fine without religion.

So do I.  But what about their eternal souls?  I get it that you don't believe that they have eternal souls and that even those living charitable lives are not unspotted from the world -- meaning they are sinners.  And as sinners they are in need of the Atonement.  Yet they do not recognize this, nor do you seem to.

As for religion, "Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, to visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world" (James 1:27)  Perhaps many secularists do their best to be all that this verse states.  In fact, I do not doubt that many secularists are better than many religious types in this respect.  I do not cast aspersions upon them, and it seems certain that they will be rewarded for the righteousness that they do.  But it isn't enough for the fulness.  These are they who will be worthy of the Terrestrial Kingdom, which is a kingdom of glory.  DC 76:75-76 -- These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.  These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.

So they do just fine without religion, in the sense you mean it.  I'll grant this.  But they could have done so much more with it.  

I'm sure you disagree.

[gopher]

I'm not sure missionary work would be more effective by removing the emphasis on the JS story and the BOM. During the five years I spent as WML, i saw that both continue to be key to conversion.  One heavily tattooed convert still bears testimony every month about JS.  A black sister went against her Baptist family and was baptized because of her testimony of the BOM.  Another sister had a powerful spiritual expedience watching the Restoration video and was baptized.  Another prayed to find truth about God and three days later the missionaries knocked on her door.  She bore testimony of the BOM at her baptism.  Not all stick with it - one sister left after a year due to intense opposition from her family.  At her baptism, she told me she felt like she was walking on air. Hopefully she'll come back.

As long as God continues to let people know JS was a prophet and the BOM is holy scripture, it seems the church should continue to use them (in addition to preaching of Christ) in missionary work.

Edited January 17, 2019 by gopher

[Hamba Tuhan]

17 minutes ago, gopher said:

I'm not sure missionary work would be more effective by removing the emphasis on the JS story and the BOM.

The stake president and I went on a ministering visit together tonight. Afterwards we had a 45-minute drive back to the city, and we got talking about the role of personal revelation in the Church. I pointed out that in many ways, the Church in its early days was exactly what people had been hoping for: a restoration of the primitive church, complete with apostles and prophets and books of scripture that almost perfectly complemented the Bible, thus making it relatively easy for both investigators and converts to find in the Church pretty much what they had been hoping and even looking for. But in Nauvoo, both doctrine and practice started to be more than many people had wished for. Those who survived the clandestine introduction of polygamy, to take just one example, were those who knew how to both seek and obtain revelation. Those who refused to or didn't really understand what it was or how to get there mostly didn't adjust.

I'm strongly of the opinion that true conversion requires revelation, and revelation isn't really an issue as long as people are telling us familiar things or easy things. The reality of prophets and additional scripture overwhelmingly forces people into a position where they have to sort things out with God. That's a good thing, I'm certain!

Quote

At her baptism, she told me she felt like she was walking on air. Hopefully she'll come back.

I feel optimistic that a great many people will come back. I've lived long enough to see it happen quite a few times already.

[carbon dioxide]

On 1/13/2019 at 9:01 PM, sunstoned said:

I'm sorry, I was confused.  I didn't know we were judging the world by your version of wickedness and righteousness.  

P.S.  I know many people who are secularist who live charitable lives and do just fine without religion.

I am sure that is true but that has nothing to do with whether the world is getting more wicked or righteous.  God determines the classifications of wickedness and righteousness.  Not me or the secular world.   Have no doubt there are secularists that are living happy and charitable lives.  I have no doubt about that.  If that was not the case, there would not be that many secularists.