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Article on the social structures which bind Saints to the Church

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Interesting article which suggeets that while it us unfair to speak of Latter-Day Saints as "brainwashed", we have evolved a unique system of social structures which bind us to each other. 

I do wonder if a similar couldn't be done of Roman Catholicism,  Evangelical Christians,  or Amway.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/lds-indoctrination-and-retentive-socialization/

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Is this a bad thing?  Most people hunger for a sense of belonging ( in PT, not able to read yet)

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15 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Interesting article which suggeets that while it us unfair to speak of Latter-Day Saints as "brainwashed", we have evolved a unique system of social structures which bind us to each other. 

I do wonder if a similar couldn't be done of Roman Catholicism,  Evangelical Christians,  or Amway.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/lds-indoctrination-and-retentive-socialization/

I think you would find that this type of socialization is already very prevalent in a number of other religions: Judaism, Catholicism, Islam...just to name a few. It is not couldn't be done, it is done.

I agree with the premise of the article and concur that there is not morally good/bad in this proposition or description. 

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7 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

One faith to rule them all,

One faith to bind them,

One faith to bring them all

And in the light bind them.

On the Planet Kolob where the Gods dwell

I see what you did there.

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Just now, bluebell said:

I see what you did there.

Just realized I was promoting a common misconception. Fixed now. ;) 

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2 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

Just realized I was promoting a common misconception. Fixed now. ;) 

:lol:

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Posted (edited)
44 minutes ago, flameburns623 said:

Interesting article which suggeets that while it us unfair to speak of Latter-Day Saints as "brainwashed", we have evolved a unique system of social structures which bind us to each other. 

I do wonder if a similar couldn't be done of Roman Catholicism,  Evangelical Christians,  or Amway.

https://faenrandir.github.io/a_careful_examination/lds-indoctrination-and-retentive-socialization/

Or any other organization. It’s human nature.

Edited by Bernard Gui

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What a long and inclusive article.  Well-researched and sourced.  I (we) would do well to ponder the implications of the thoughts shared.

A couple people have so far commented that other faiths or groups have similar characteristics.  This may be true, but let's not dismiss these potential challenges in our faith community just because 'everyone else' does this too.  Let's fix what might need fixing, regardless of how we compare.

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So what in your opinion needs fixing?  And how can this be done without sacrificing the more positive aspects?

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2 hours ago, Calm said:

So what in your opinion needs fixing?  And how can this be done without sacrificing the more positive aspects?

I'm happy to share what I think, but some would say my suggestions would violate the orthodoxy of the church.  Also, as you suggest, some might think the things that I think are negative are positive for some.

But a few - for example:

Self conditioning may help some to believe in something they want to believe, but it's not a good tactic for gaining truth objectively.  Attributing causation has the same effects.  Limiting, or suggesting the limiting of what one studies has the same effects.

The zealous teachings emphasizing the importance of following the prophet may help some gain a needed focus on something tangible to follow, but for some this authoritarianism takes away from being focused on Christ by following the Holy Ghost.

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3 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

What a long and inclusive article.  Well-researched and sourced.  I (we) would do well to ponder the implications of the thoughts shared.

A couple people have so far commented that other faiths or groups have similar characteristics.  This may be true, but let's not dismiss these potential challenges in our faith community just because 'everyone else' does this too.  Let's fix what might need fixing, regardless of how we compare.

I don’t believe the author seeks to identify challenges that need fixing.  Instead, the author seeks to find a secular explanation for high levels of devotion among LDS folks, demonstrated by doing things like serving missions (and parents rejoicing in their children serving missions).

My takeaway from the article was that little, if any, of the proffered explanations have anything to do with my devotion, the source and drive of which is communion with the divine, which points me to, and confirms my continued devotion to His church.

The temple covenants cited are a consequence, not a source of, my devotion.

If there is a challenge to be discussed and addressed it is that the cited explanations might too often explain the source of devotion rather than a knowledge and love of God.

Btw, I don’t work in academia, but I kind of doubt compiling a bunch of information you receive from folks on reddit is considered rigorous researching and sourcing.

Edited by let’s roll
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6 minutes ago, let’s roll said:

My takeaway from the article was that little, if any, of the proffered explanations have anything to do with my devotion, the source and drive of which is communion with the divine, which points me to, and confirms my continued devotion to His church.

This.

I had a quick look over the main points in the article. I don't think anything there is wrong, but it doesn't read as something familiar to those who are supposed to be the subject of this research: the devout. I found myself saying, Yes, that may be true, but it's one little aspect of what's really going on in my life.

When I was writing my PhD thesis, this obstacle was foremost in my mind. Knowing that my account was unavoidably partial and, in parts, inaccurate, I sought to craft a narrative that would have felt familiar to the actual subjects of the piece, and that meant that I had to take their faith seriously even if I couldn't explain it academically.

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1 hour ago, Bob Crockett said:

Is this a true academic piece or just somebody's lay opinion?   Peer reviewed.?

Looks lay opinion, personal research piece to me.  "Peer reviewed" would depend on what qualifies as "peers".

From "About" for the site.

Quote

This site is a collection of resources, research, and thoughts on the truth-claims, teachings, and culture of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints (referred to as “the LDS Church” herein).

I undertook this research carefully and with as much objectivity as I was capable. If I am mistaken in what I have written or the conclusions I have drawn, then please do not hesitate to offer me correction.

From Acknowledgments:

Quote

Acknowledgements

Some personal communication with Benjamin Beit-Hallahmi influenced the general approach of this document.

Reddit user JohnH2 provided valuable critique’s of an early draft of this work which eventually prompted me to write this draft (he also provided useful critique of this draft).

Some examples were drawn from Luna Lindsay’s work (see Recovering Agency: Lifting the Veil of Mormon Mind Control)

Some examples and thoughts on approach were drawn from thoughtsonthingsandstuff by Jonathon Streeter.

Mormonism101 was helpful in considering ways to frame the psychological influence of the LDS Church.

Reddit user MaxSTX pointed out the 2017 mobile device standards.

Reddit user TracingWoodgrains provided some valuable suggestions.

Discussion and examples from /r/mormon and /r/exmormon were helpful in formulating this document. I did not give enough specific credit to all those who pointed out good/interesting socializing influences which this document benefited from.

Reddit user we-were-gods provided useful feedback and general encouragement to continue documenting my thinking on this and other LDS topics.

 

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I was in the Army when I was younger.  As part of it, I was assigned to a number of military units, some with history and traditions going back over a hundred years.  We were encouraged to become cohesive and proud of our heritage in these units, and indeed, in the Army itself.  There were promotion ceremonies, change of command ceremonies, and various other events that were designed to make us "all that we could be".  We celebrated the passing of difficult inspector general inspections, various tests of readiness and so on.  We wore uniforms with insignia to help us bond with each other and our common culture.

I don't know why this article singles out the Latter-day Saints.  It's the same everywhere, quite frankly.  Any organization that doesn't have cohesion is not going to be very effective.

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38 minutes ago, Stargazer said:

I don't know why this article singles out the Latter-day Saints.  It's the same everywhere, quite frankly.  Any organization that doesn't have cohesion is not going to be very effective.

Apparently he is still processing his leaving the Church:

Quote

Even though this has been a positive experience in general, it’s still very challenging to transition from the faith that I held dearly for the vast majority of my life. My wife and I are still working through the various stages of grief.

This transition has also influenced many of my relationships with friends and family.15 The process of rebuilding those relationships has been quite challenging but has generally gone well.

This time of viewing life from outside the Gospel/Church perspective—which is the only perspective I’ve ever really known—has been one of the most enlightening phases of my life (similar to the major enlightenment I experienced on my mission). Many things that never quite made sense suddenly have an explanation to my mind, and that’s extremely satisfying.16 And, as far as my own sense of moral obligation goes, I feel confident that morality transcends religious belief) and is still central to living a good life.

 

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On 1/9/2019 at 6:09 PM, SouthernMo said:

I'm happy to share what I think, but some would say my suggestions would violate the orthodoxy of the church.  Also, as you suggest, some might think the things that I think are negative are positive for some.

But a few - for example:

Self conditioning may help some to believe in something they want to believe, but it's not a good tactic for gaining truth objectively.  Attributing causation has the same effects.  Limiting, or suggesting the limiting of what one studies has the same effects.

The zealous teachings emphasizing the importance of following the prophet may help some gain a needed focus on something tangible to follow, but for some this authoritarianism takes away from being focused on Christ by following the Holy Ghost.

Objective truth?

Nope all there is is communities of believers, even in science. :) 

We are just involved in constant peer review 

So so you are saying that biologists should study geology because they are limiting their studies?

Look look at Juries. 12 peers determine the "facts".

Throw throw in thousands of peers and you have "science."

But hey thousands of people can't be wrong can they? ;)

 

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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