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Winning discussions with the antiMormons -- ala Ben Shapiro

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11 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I just feel in my heart today to let you all know that...anti mormons  are not a stupid or uncaring people.  To associate with us is not always a bad thing...in my case, there is no winner or loser.  This thread in some ways is so sad to me. 

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

And Jeanne, you don't seem to be an anti Mormon at all! You just aren't a Mormon on record.

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Posted (edited)
40 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

I just feel in my heart today to let you all know that...anti mormons  are not a stupid or uncaring people.  To associate with us is not always a bad thing...in my case, there is no winner or loser.  This thread in some ways is so sad to me. 

Thanks for your testimony ;)

By the way, I agree with Tacenda, you don't come off as anti mormon, so, thank you!  Either that or you are just really bad at what you do :)

Edited by pogi
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1 hour ago, Tacenda said:

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

Pretty sure this is when you start pushing it to drive whoever is doing this crazy and have fun with it. Why would you leave when you can have fun? Wear this next week:

51PowlmHYXL._UY445_.jpg

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2 hours ago, The Nehor said:

Pretty sure this is when you start pushing it to drive whoever is doing this crazy and have fun with it. Why would you leave when you can have fun? Wear this next week:

51PowlmHYXL._UY445_.jpg

😁

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6 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I haven't followed Ben Shapiro much, I will admit that what little I've seen of him, he seems to court controversy in politics and he doesn't come across to me as a very deep or thoughtful individual, but more of a polarizing figure, essentially a younger Rush Limbaugh, but I may be incorrectly stereotyping him.  Perhaps you can share a link or two that would demonstrate the best of Ben Shapiro that I could check out to evaluate?  

This thread is not abt him

As for winning debates, these tactics don't seem to change minds at all.  I guess if you're attempting to win a game of some kind this could be useful, but if you want to change minds and influence people, I don't see these tactics as very effective.  

Read my previous posts

 

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3 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

Even as a teenager, a recent convert, , I had a snappy response to someone "I am a high councilman" making a similar comment at a dance.

"The bishop is here and will let  me know  if there is a problem."  He was silent and walked away.

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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, Meerkat said:

I agree.  When the opportunity came to speak with a family member/former member of the Church who had estranged himself from us for over four years, we put away our old way of communicating (preaching, defending, etc.) and expressed the love we truly feel.  We listen carefully to his complaints and agree when we can.  We allow him to have his points, and continue to wait patiently for God to do His mighty work.  Allowing him the freedom to think, and know we love him no matter which path he chooses seems to defuse his anger.  He is now attending church with us.  He has said recently "There are some things I can never agree with.  But there are some things I may not have understood.  My biggest regret is having my name removed from the records of the Church when I did."

I leave it to the apologists to make their defenses to their audiences.  Where my family and others I care about are concerned, it's got to be love, love, love, acknowledgement of their well thought out positions, praying for them and patience waiting upon the Lord.

This is pretty much how we usually counsel people who write into Fairmormon on how to engage friends and family, make sure they know you love them rather than debate them. Avoid any discussion that goes to contention. No hearts are changed for the better when arguing. 

Edited by Calm
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Discussion with an atheist 

>>To have faith means to not have proof of what you believe.

I agree with you.
In the spiritual realm, faith is a prerequisite to knowledge. Likewise, if we are to gain an understanding (knowledge) in science, such as astronomy == we have a "faith" that our scientific instruments will give us data (proof) which then will lead to knowledge.
I think of faith as the telescope of the spiritual realm. Refuse to look in the telescope, you will continue to believe your unaided, unenhanced eyes that the sun revolves around the earth.

 

I suggest that you read Alma 32, starting with verse 17 to read more about this process of going from faith to knowledge before responding.

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15 hours ago, cdowis said:
22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I haven't followed Ben Shapiro much, I will admit that what little I've seen of him, he seems to court controversy in politics and he doesn't come across to me as a very deep or thoughtful individual, but more of a polarizing figure, essentially a younger Rush Limbaugh, but I may be incorrectly stereotyping him.  Perhaps you can share a link or two that would demonstrate the best of Ben Shapiro that I could check out to evaluate?  

This thread is not abt him

As for winning debates, these tactics don't seem to change minds at all.  I guess if you're attempting to win a game of some kind this could be useful, but if you want to change minds and influence people, I don't see these tactics as very effective.  

Read my previous posts

 

Since you didn't provide any additional supporting links about Ben Shapiro, I went to Youtube and tried to find some thoughtful debates.  Unfortunately, I only found very one sided interactions that seemed to glory in how Shapiro "crushes" or "destroys" his competition.  I wasn't impressed to say the least.  If this guy is anything more than just a shallow firebrand, I would love to know, so if you could please guide me towards something of substance it would be helpful, otherwise I'm left with this other impression of Shapiro.   

I just re-read every one of your posts in this message thread, and it does sound to me like you aren't going to change any minds with these tactics.  You mention "discrediting" your opponent to hopefully sway the minds of others who are watching the exchange.  Do you have any supporting evidence that this kind of an approach actually influences others in the ways you're hoping?  Also, I'm wondering if you have considered whether this approach would even be considered Christian or more specifically if the values of the Mormon tradition are compatible with these kinds of tactics.  I'm talking about how treating others is so important and the way we go about that treatment.  Some things to consider.  Thanks

 

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22 hours ago, Tacenda said:

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

And Jeanne, you don't seem to be an anti Mormon at all! You just aren't a Mormon on record.

My experience is that many people have a restaurant they continue to frequent because the food is so delicious even though the staff isn’t as friendly as they could be.

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On 1/7/2019 at 8:40 AM, hope_for_things said:

I haven't followed Ben Shapiro much, I will admit that what little I've seen of him, he seems to court controversy in politics and he doesn't come across to me as a very deep or thoughtful individual, but more of a polarizing figure, essentially a younger Rush Limbaugh, but I may be incorrectly stereotyping him.  Perhaps you can share a link or two that would demonstrate the best of Ben Shapiro that I could check out to evaluate?  

As for winning debates, these tactics don't seem to change minds at all.  I guess if you're attempting to win a game of some kind this could be useful, but if you want to change minds and influence people, I don't see these tactics as very effective.  

JFYI, I think the main value in Ben Shapiro is in his challenging the assumptions of many liberals, and actually get them to think about what the liberal professors and media have been stuffing into their minds. In this way I think cdowis makes a valuable point in this thread. Many Church critics have some big assumptions and incorrect beliefs about the Church. As Church members it is our responsibility to try to correct these misconceptions and incorrect facts getting bantied about on the internet. We may not change that person's narrow interpretation of things, but often we can help the reader to gain a better appreciation concerning what the Church is really about. It is not about winning the battle, but helping Christ win the war.

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On 1/7/2019 at 7:41 PM, Tacenda said:

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

And Jeanne, you don't seem to be an anti Mormon at all! You just aren't a Mormon on record.

In other words, he let the Mormons drive him out of the Church of Jesus Christ. Or, he let his pride do so. Why do people give backbiters so much authority over their lives? It's a sad thing.

I like to chuckle at my critics (though I have few of those -- I'm the worst of that lot). I like to wear a black shirt to church occasionally. Nobody says anything, and if they did I'd just smile at them.  My Elders Quorum President has a full, and I mean full, beard. Don't know if anyone criticizes him for it. Doubtful.

Although if I were called to the bishopric I'd probably not wear my black shirt to church -- but just to avoid drawing attention to myself. Unless the rest of the bishopric wore colored shirts!

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32 minutes ago, RevTestament said:

JFYI, I think the main value in Ben Shapiro is in his challenging the assumptions of many liberals, and actually get them to think about what the liberal professors and media have been stuffing into their minds. In this way I think cdowis makes a valuable point in this thread. Many Church critics have some big assumptions and incorrect beliefs about the Church. As Church members it is our responsibility to try to correct these misconceptions and incorrect facts getting bantied about on the internet. We may not change that person's narrow interpretation of things, but often we can help the reader to gain a better appreciation concerning what the Church is really about. It is not about winning the battle, but helping Christ win the war.

I'm in support of challenging assumptions, and I would apply this all across the board, to every segment of society.  I think critics of the church often challenge the assumptions of church goers, and this can be a positive exercise.  Where things go wrong, with challenging assumptions is with the tone and engagement with the other side. 

Influencing others is important and approaching things diplomatically and engaging with others is a skill that is necessary to be effective.  This is where I see Shapiro's method as flawed, and for that matter the method of harsher critics of the church as well.  I'm interested in effective engagement and dialogue in an increasingly polarized society. 

As for misconceptions on the internet, I would agree that people could try to correct the misconceptions, but again, do you think the Shapiro method is the right way to go about this?  

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8 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

Since you didn't provide any additional supporting links about Ben Shapiro, I went to Youtube and tried to find some thoughtful debates.  Unfortunately, I only found very one sided interactions that seemed to glory in how Shapiro "crushes" or "destroys" his competition.  I wasn't impressed to say the least.  If this guy is anything more than just a shallow firebrand, I would love to know, so if you could please guide me towards something of substance it would be helpful, otherwise I'm left with this other impression of Shapiro.   

Yes, Shapiro isn't the topic of the thread, but...

The "crushing" videos are not a good intro. If you watch one of the complete campus addresses he gives that will give you a better view. Like this one at the University of Utah, which includes the Q&A. I suggest that you also have a listen to Shapiro's show on The Daily Wire. Try this one.

This is in the nature of a FYI, not a call to discuss Shapiro.

8 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I just re-read every one of your posts in this message thread, and it does sound to me like you aren't going to change any minds with these tactics. 

I think he's trying to say that he's not expecting the mind of his interlocutor to be changed, but that he be given food for thought, and that onlookers see a rational debate instead of an "uncontested slam dunk".

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Posted (edited)
On 1/7/2019 at 11:41 AM, Tacenda said:

I was reading on another board a man's statement about leaving. He was very active, many callings, TR holder etc. He had one problem, he had a closely shaven beard. Time and time again, someone in his ward said something about it and it connecting to a calling or not getting a calling. One day he didn't have a clean white shirt and wore a grayish shirt. Well someone said something about white shirts. I guess he had had it by then and walked away from the church never to return. So it's not always history that does it. I wonder what some on this thread would say to that?

And Jeanne, you don't seem to be an anti Mormon at all! You just aren't a Mormon on record.

Once after a stake presidency meeting (I was an executive secretary to the second counselor), I was asked by the stake clerk, referring to my mustache, “I don’t understand why anyone would cultivate on their lip something that grows wild on their ###.”

I guess I should have walked away and never returned, but instead I have spent some amusing private moments thinking of clever rejoinders such as, “There is an ### in here, but it’s not connected to my lip.” We don’t have to take offense, even when offense was intended.

That’s what I would say to that.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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2 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

Once after a stake presidency meeting (I was an executive secretary to the second counselor), I was asked by the stake clerk, referring to my mustache, “I don’t understand why anyone would cultivate on their lip something that grows wild on their ###.”

I guess I should have walked away and never returned, but instead I have spent some amusing private moments thinking of clever rejoinders such as, “There is an ### in here, but it’s not connected to my lip.” We don’t have to take offense, even when offense was intended.

That’s what I would say to that.

Love these answers, can we just all go to the same ward?? ;)

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Posted (edited)
On 1/6/2019 at 9:22 PM, Robert F. Smith said:

Recently, an anti-Mormon said the following about SLC and LDS Welfare:

I replied as follows today on Quora:

There is an astonishing level of misinformation bandied about on nearly any given subject.  Even snopes.com cannot keep up with all the garbage.

Snopes even bandies about some of its own. Who can you trust?

Edited by Bernard Gui
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Posted (edited)
5 hours ago, RevTestament said:

JFYI, I think the main value in Ben Shapiro is in his challenging the assumptions of many liberals, and actually get them to think about what the liberal professors and media have been stuffing into their minds. In this way I think cdowis makes a valuable point in this thread. Many Church critics have some big assumptions and incorrect beliefs about the Church. As Church members it is our responsibility to try to correct these misconceptions and incorrect facts getting bantied about on the internet. We may not change that person's narrow interpretation of things, but often we can help the reader to gain a better appreciation concerning what the Church is really about. It is not about winning the battle, but helping Christ win the war.

Back when Reagan was a presidential candidate, Dave Hunt, (a notorious anti-Mormon, co-author of The God Makers) was on a Seattle Christian talk radio show explaining how the LDS were going to take over the country. 

According to Hunt, Reagan might choose George (?) [EDIT] Romney as his VP. If he were to be elected, something would “happen” to Reagan, Romney would take over and then abdicate to the LDS prophet. All the embedded LDS in the government would be appointed to powerful positions, and the thousands of LDS with their year’s suplly of food, guns, and ammunition would rise up to finish the coup. Thus the LDS Church would achieve its plan to take control of the US.

I called the show to correct the silliness, but when the host and Dave learned I was LDS, they cut me off. Lose the battle, win the war?

 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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Posted (edited)

Here's an idea, why not ask them what they've done for the Kingdom of God lately?  Who have they helped?  What have they done?  I'd try this with a bunch of people around, esp. if you've done a lot of charity work.  Just my 2 cents, people like this just want to run their mouths off, I'd do what Jesus did with the Pharisees, i.e the most passive aggressive pimp hand style verbal backhand you can muster.  Always thought that was a genius move, show em up in front of the everyday people who already didn't like them that much.

Edited by poptart

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

Reagan was thinking about picking Mitt Romney as his VP.

There is no way this is true. Mitt Romney was 33 when Reagan was running for office in 1980. He had just five years of work experience working for Bain. Despite his earning an impressive Harvard MBA/JD, no campaign leader would even allow the suggestion of such an inexperienced individual as a running mate.

Where on earth did you hear such a tale?  Weren’t you of voting age in 1980?

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Posted (edited)

More likely Orrin Hatch (though even he just became a senator in 77).

Maybe he means George?

Edited by Calm

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23 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

There is no way this is true. Mitt Romney was 33 when Reagan was running for office in 1980. He had just five years of work experience working for Bain. Despite his earning an impressive Harvard MBA/JD, no campaign leader would even allow the suggestion of such an inexperienced individual as a running mate.

Where on earth did you hear such a tale?  Weren’t you of voting age in 1980?

I’ll try to find the transcript I made after recording the program. If not Romney, it was another well-known LDS politician. I heard the tale on a live radio show.

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Posted (edited)
45 minutes ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’ll try to find the transcript I made after recording the program. If not Romney, it was another well-known LDS politician. I heard the tale on a live radio show.

My error. George Romney IIRC..

Edited by Bernard Gui

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