cdowis Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) I am constantly engaged with the antis, and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting. For example, "Joseph Smith was a con man." And you know this... how? "Lots of members are upset with the church." I am still waiting to hear your point. "The Bible says that......" You are adding words to the Bible. You are quoting yourself. "Works cannot save us." We agree. Edited January 6, 2019 by cdowis 1 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 10 minutes ago, cdowis said: I am constantly engaged with the antis, and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting. For example, "Joseph Smith was a con man." And you know this... how? "Lots of members are upset with the church." I am still waiting to hear your point. "The Bible says that......" You are adding words to the Bible. You are quoting yourself. "Works cannot save us." We agree. What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?” 2 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 1 hour ago, SouthernMo said: What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?” To get out of the conversation. If that fails say something inflammatory and watch them sputter. I may be a bad example. 3 Link to comment
cdowis Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) The individual determines the course of the discussion: Correct misunderstandings and factual inaccuracies, have them examine their assumptions, OR crush them into silence under the weight of indisputable logic and a factual narrative. Demonstrate their total ignorance of the Bible == I quote the Bible, they quote themselves. 😎 You might find this of interest https://www.youtube.com/user/cdowis/videos and https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/57532-youtube-apologetics/ Edited January 6, 2019 by cdowis Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 Ben Shapiro has become a formidable debater because he researches the different issues thoroughly and has the facts and statistics in his head and can cite them without the use of notes, etc. when he is debating someone. I have not seen where he has changed the mind of any of the people he has debated, but I have seem him leave an opponent with nothing but emotions with which to reply. One of his lines is "Facts don't care about your feelings." There is little hope in changing the minds of a person who has an entrenched position in a debate. And, normally if two or more people are ready, eager, for a debate, they probably are pretty entrenched in their positions, whatever that may be. The only thing that either side can hope to accomplish is to marshal the facts they wish to use to bolster their arguments and present them in a coherent, persuasive manner so they will be able to sway those who may be listening in who have not already formed an entrenched type of opinion. But that is just my opinion. Glenn 1 Link to comment
Popular Post let’s roll Posted January 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 6, 2019 “Winning” isn’t the way I’d characterize the purpose for any conversation with anyone regarding spiritual matters. 6 Link to comment
cdowis Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 1 hour ago, let’s roll said: “Winning” isn’t the way I’d characterize the purpose for any conversation with anyone regarding spiritual matters. I agree. Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation. You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably influence the audience by discrediting him. 1 Link to comment
SouthernMo Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 52 minutes ago, cdowis said: I agree. Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation. You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably influence the audience by discrediting him. So you find yourself often in conversations with “antis” in front of audiences? Link to comment
cdowis Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said: So you find yourself often in conversations with “antis” in front of audiences? youtube forums -- I would not do anything live. Probably over a couple thousand posts in the anti videos. Edited January 6, 2019 by cdowis Link to comment
Popular Post cinepro Posted January 6, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 6, 2019 2 hours ago, Glenn101 said: One of his lines is "Facts don't care about your feelings." Glenn If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down. 10 Link to comment
cdowis Posted January 6, 2019 Author Share Posted January 6, 2019 (edited) 18 minutes ago, cinepro said: If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down. Yeah, that is what the other side uses. It is something I have to respond to when talking about a testimony. Edited January 6, 2019 by cdowis Link to comment
flameburns623 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 5 hours ago, cdowis said: I agree. Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation. You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably influence the audience by discrediting him. Congratulations. You win the Internet. Best quote I've seen all week. Link to comment
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 Winner..winner...winner!!! I have to LOL as no matter what the arguments, to learn and embrace patience makes us all winners. 1 Link to comment
The Nehor Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 43 minutes ago, Jeanne said: Winner..winner...winner!!! I have to LOL as no matter what the arguments, to learn and embrace patience makes us all winners. Oh great. Now I am a loser......... Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 8 hours ago, cinepro said: If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down. Fortunately that is not the ultimate argument. 1 Link to comment
Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Glenn101 said: Ben Shapiro has become a formidable debater because he researches the different issues thoroughly and has the facts and statistics in his head and can cite them without the use of notes, etc. when he is debating someone. I have not seen where he has changed the mind of any of the people he has debated, but I have seem him leave an opponent with nothing but emotions with which to reply. One of his lines is "Facts don't care about your feelings." There is little hope in changing the minds of a person who has an entrenched position in a debate. And, normally if two or more people are ready, eager, for a debate, they probably are pretty entrenched in their positions, whatever that may be. The only thing that either side can hope to accomplish is to marshal the facts they wish to use to bolster their arguments and present them in a coherent, persuasive manner so they will be able to sway those who may be listening in who have not already formed an entrenched type of opinion. But that is just my opinion. Glenn It is not as hopeless as you suggest. The minds of college students are malleable, and good arguments can have a salutary effect. I expect that Shapiro will run for political office one day, and will probably be quite successful in bringing a majority to agreement with him. That other Harvard Law School grad, Mitt Romney (J.D./M.B.A. '75,), has not been as successful on the national scene -- even though the Saints will always vote for him. 1 Link to comment
Popular Post Robert F. Smith Posted January 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2019 12 hours ago, cdowis said: The individual determines the course of the discussion: Correct misunderstandings and factual inaccuracies, have them examine their assumptions, OR crush them into silence under the weight of indisputable logic and a factual narrative. .............................. Recently, an anti-Mormon said the following about SLC and LDS Welfare: Quote We are just like any other large city. For the record, the mormons do very little to NOTHING to help this community. They just like to make people think they do. Gross. I replied as follows today on Quora: Quote Not true at all, [name withheld]. The LDS Church has always contributed large sums to local Salt Lake City welfare problems and concerns. During the past decade alone, the LDS Church has given over $42 million to relieve and care for the homeless in SLC (specifically to Catholic Community Services, Fourth Street Clinic, the Road Home, the Utah Food Bank, United Way of Salt Lake, Utah Community Action, Volunteers of America and the YWCA.). In November 2017, the LDS Church contributed $10 million to Shelter the Homeless, and just recently made another significant contribution to the new homeless shelters planned for SLC. There is an astonishing level of misinformation bandied about on nearly any given subject. Even snopes.com cannot keep up with all the garbage. 7 Link to comment
Glenn101 Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said: It is not as hopeless as you suggest. The minds of college students are malleable, and good arguments can have a salutary effect. I expect that Shapiro will run for political office one day, and will probably be quite successful in bringing a majority to agreement with him. That other Harvard Law School grad, Mitt Romney (J.D./M.B.A. '75,), has not been as successful on the national scene -- even though the Saints will always vote for him. I think that the wake up calls for college students mostly will come when they graduate and have to face the reality of making a living. The entrenched positions that I am referring to are with those who are older, past their college years, usually. Glenn 1 Link to comment
hope_for_things Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 8:47 AM, cdowis said: I am constantly engaged with the antis, and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting. For example, "Joseph Smith was a con man." And you know this... how? "Lots of members are upset with the church." I am still waiting to hear your point. "The Bible says that......" You are adding words to the Bible. You are quoting yourself. "Works cannot save us." We agree. I haven't followed Ben Shapiro much, I will admit that what little I've seen of him, he seems to court controversy in politics and he doesn't come across to me as a very deep or thoughtful individual, but more of a polarizing figure, essentially a younger Rush Limbaugh, but I may be incorrectly stereotyping him. Perhaps you can share a link or two that would demonstrate the best of Ben Shapiro that I could check out to evaluate? As for winning debates, these tactics don't seem to change minds at all. I guess if you're attempting to win a game of some kind this could be useful, but if you want to change minds and influence people, I don't see these tactics as very effective. Link to comment
Bernard Gui Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 On 1/6/2019 at 7:59 AM, SouthernMo said: What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?” To crush the enemies, to see them flee before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. 4 Link to comment
Popular Post Meerkat Posted January 7, 2019 Popular Post Share Posted January 7, 2019 (edited) 23 hours ago, cinepro said: If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down. I agree. When the opportunity came to speak with a family member/former member of the Church who had estranged himself from us for over four years, we put away our old way of communicating (preaching, defending, etc.) and expressed the love we truly feel. We listen carefully to his complaints and agree when we can. We allow him to have his points, and continue to wait patiently for God to do His mighty work. Allowing him the freedom to think, and know we love him no matter which path he chooses seems to defuse his anger. He is now attending church with us. He has said recently "There are some things I can never agree with. But there are some things I may not have understood. My biggest regret is having my name removed from the records of the Church when I did." I leave it to the apologists to make their defenses to their audiences. Where my family and others I care about are concerned, it's got to be love, love, love, acknowledgement of their well thought out positions, praying for them and patience waiting upon the Lord. Edited January 7, 2019 by Meerkat 5 Link to comment
MiserereNobis Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said: To crush the enemies, to see them flee before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women. Spoken like a true inquisitor 4 Link to comment
FunOnlineMan Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I’m finding this entire thread both interesting and strange. Thank you for posting this. Link to comment
LoudmouthMormon Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I'm fond of saying stuff like this: "The absolute best way to preserve your testimony, is to know what you believe, and why you believe it." There's historical or theological stuff. Almost without exception, when someone finds true things, whether historical or theological, hard to accept, it's because the person is missing one or both. They aren't sure what they believe, or they discover what they've always believed isn't true. 2 Link to comment
Jeanne Posted January 7, 2019 Share Posted January 7, 2019 I just feel in my heart today to let you all know that...anti mormons are not a stupid or uncaring people. To associate with us is not always a bad thing...in my case, there is no winner or loser. This thread in some ways is so sad to me. 4 Link to comment
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