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cdowis

Winning discussions with the antiMormons -- ala Ben Shapiro

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Posted (edited)

I am constantly engaged with the antis,  and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting.  For example, 

"Joseph Smith was a con man."
And you know this... how?

"Lots of members are upset with the church."
I am still waiting to hear your point.

"The Bible says that......"
You are adding words to the Bible.  You are quoting yourself.

"Works cannot save us."
We agree.

 

 

 

Edited by cdowis
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10 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I am constantly engaged with the antis,  and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting.  For example, 

"Joseph Smith was a con man."
And you know this... how?

"Lots of members are upset with the church."
I am still waiting to hear your point.

"The Bible says that......"
You are adding words to the Bible.  You are quoting yourself.

"Works cannot save us."
We agree.

 

 

 

What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?”

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1 hour ago, SouthernMo said:

What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?”

To get out of the conversation. If that fails say something inflammatory and watch them sputter. I may be a bad example.

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Posted (edited)

The individual determines the course of the discussion:

Correct misunderstandings and factual inaccuracies, have them examine their assumptions,
OR crush them into silence under the weight of indisputable logic and a factual narrative.  Demonstrate their total ignorance of the Bible == I quote the Bible, they quote themselves.  😎

You might find this of interest https://www.youtube.com/user/cdowis/videos and   https://thirdhour.org/forums/topic/57532-youtube-apologetics/ 

Edited by cdowis

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Ben Shapiro has become a formidable debater because he researches the different issues thoroughly and has the facts and statistics in his head and can cite them without the use of notes, etc. when he is debating someone. I have not seen where he has changed the mind of any of the people he has debated, but I have seem him leave an opponent with nothing but emotions with which to reply. One of his lines is "Facts don't care about your feelings."

There is little hope in changing the minds of a person who has an entrenched position in a debate. And, normally if two or more people are ready, eager, for a debate, they probably are pretty entrenched in their positions, whatever that may be. The only thing that either side can hope to accomplish is to marshal the facts they wish to use to bolster their arguments and present them in a coherent, persuasive manner so they will be able to sway those who may be listening in who have not already formed an entrenched type of opinion. But that is just my opinion.

Glenn

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1 hour ago, let’s roll said:

“Winning” isn’t the way I’d characterize the purpose for any conversation with anyone regarding spiritual matters.

I agree.

Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation.  You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably  influence the audience by discrediting him.

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52 minutes ago, cdowis said:

I agree.

Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation.  You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably  influence the audience by discrediting him.

So you find yourself often in conversations with “antis” in front of audiences?

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Posted (edited)
31 minutes ago, SouthernMo said:

So you find yourself often in conversations with “antis” in front of audiences?

youtube forums -- I would not do anything live.   Probably over a couple thousand posts in the anti videos.

Edited by cdowis

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Posted (edited)
18 minutes ago, cinepro said:

If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down.

Yeah, that is what the other side uses.  It is something I have to respond to  when talking about a testimony.

Edited by cdowis

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5 hours ago, cdowis said:

I agree.

Apologetics is a hobby, not a spiritual conversation.  You are not trying to win over the antiMormon, but to favorably  influence the audience by discrediting him.

Congratulations.  You win the Internet.  Best quote I've seen all week. 

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Winner..winner...winner!!!  I have to LOL as no matter what the arguments, to learn and embrace patience makes us all winners. 

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43 minutes ago, Jeanne said:

Winner..winner...winner!!!  I have to LOL as no matter what the arguments, to learn and embrace patience makes us all winners. 

Oh great. Now I am a loser.........

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8 hours ago, cinepro said:

If the ultimate argument/defense is going to be "facts don't care about your feelings", I'm not sure that's a path that believers should go down.

Fortunately that is not the ultimate argument.

 

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11 hours ago, Glenn101 said:

Ben Shapiro has become a formidable debater because he researches the different issues thoroughly and has the facts and statistics in his head and can cite them without the use of notes, etc. when he is debating someone. I have not seen where he has changed the mind of any of the people he has debated, but I have seem him leave an opponent with nothing but emotions with which to reply. One of his lines is "Facts don't care about your feelings."

There is little hope in changing the minds of a person who has an entrenched position in a debate. And, normally if two or more people are ready, eager, for a debate, they probably are pretty entrenched in their positions, whatever that may be. The only thing that either side can hope to accomplish is to marshal the facts they wish to use to bolster their arguments and present them in a coherent, persuasive manner so they will be able to sway those who may be listening in who have not already formed an entrenched type of opinion. But that is just my opinion.

Glenn

It is not as hopeless as you suggest.  The minds of college students are malleable, and good arguments can have a salutary effect.  I expect that Shapiro will run for political office one day, and will probably be quite successful in bringing a majority to agreement with him.  That other Harvard Law School grad, Mitt Romney  (J.D./M.B.A. '75,), has not been as successful on the national scene -- even though the Saints will always vote for him.

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11 hours ago, Robert F. Smith said:

It is not as hopeless as you suggest.  The minds of college students are malleable, and good arguments can have a salutary effect.  I expect that Shapiro will run for political office one day, and will probably be quite successful in bringing a majority to agreement with him.  That other Harvard Law School grad, Mitt Romney  (J.D./M.B.A. '75,), has not been as successful on the national scene -- even though the Saints will always vote for him. 

I think that the wake up calls for college students mostly will come when they graduate and have to face the reality of making a living. The entrenched positions that I am referring to are with those who are older, past their college years, usually.

Glenn

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On 1/6/2019 at 8:47 AM, cdowis said:

I am constantly engaged with the antis,  and found this video on Ben Shapiro very interesting.  For example, 

"Joseph Smith was a con man."
And you know this... how?

"Lots of members are upset with the church."
I am still waiting to hear your point.

"The Bible says that......"
You are adding words to the Bible.  You are quoting yourself.

"Works cannot save us."
We agree.

I haven't followed Ben Shapiro much, I will admit that what little I've seen of him, he seems to court controversy in politics and he doesn't come across to me as a very deep or thoughtful individual, but more of a polarizing figure, essentially a younger Rush Limbaugh, but I may be incorrectly stereotyping him.  Perhaps you can share a link or two that would demonstrate the best of Ben Shapiro that I could check out to evaluate?  

As for winning debates, these tactics don't seem to change minds at all.  I guess if you're attempting to win a game of some kind this could be useful, but if you want to change minds and influence people, I don't see these tactics as very effective.  

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On 1/6/2019 at 7:59 AM, SouthernMo said:

What is your goal when you talk to these “antis?”

To crush the enemies, to see them flee before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

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1 hour ago, Bernard Gui said:

To crush the enemies, to see them flee before you, and to hear the lamentation of their women.

Spoken like a true inquisitor ;) 

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I’m finding this entire thread both interesting and strange.

Thank you for posting this. 

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I'm fond of saying stuff like this: "The absolute best way to preserve your testimony, is to know what you believe, and why you believe it."  There's historical or theological stuff.  Almost without exception, when someone finds true things, whether historical or theological, hard to accept, it's because the person is missing one or both.  They aren't sure what they believe, or they discover what they've always believed isn't true.

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I just feel in my heart today to let you all know that...anti mormons  are not a stupid or uncaring people.  To associate with us is not always a bad thing...in my case, there is no winner or loser.  This thread in some ways is so sad to me. 

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