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Accepting God's Will

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8 hours ago, changed said:

Do you think everything that happens in life is caused by God?  Just submit to everything?

My abused kids - up again all night with nightmares last night - that abuse was Gods will?

Submitting to things in life is not healthy.  

Working to change what you do not like is healthy. 

Personal responsibility, admitting mistakes that led to bad situations (rather than saying its God's will)  

Things happen through cause and effect... God's will has very little to do with it.... or is Calvanism still a thing?

Obviously, you are not Mary. It may be that both Mary and Joseph were not overly offended by their circumstances. They did the best they could with what was available. 

The scriptures provide a brief history of this event. It is strange that you would make so many assumptions that are NOT in evidence. Seems...unhelpful to condemn them or their supposed family members. When exactly and how were they to notify these people they were coming? Did they exist? You are creating a problem that did not exist and/or is not supported by any scripture. 

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There was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, army came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer.

On 1/4/2019 at 10:50 AM, changed said:

accepting God's will.

How do you know what God's will is?

"God's will" was once a massive struggle for me, until more recently when it has unfolded into a beautiful mystery for me now.  But in the past, I think getting to come to this very creative place, planet Earth, I didn't want to be TOLD anything (as I imagined God's Will equaled God Telling Me What To Do).  I wanted to make my path all by myself; I was pretty sure God's ideas would be stifling and boring.  I wanted to be free.  That may or may not go along with your motivations, but just to say those were mine, and it led to me 'kicking against the pricks' about God's will.  This doesn't mean that I wasn't doing everything I knew how to do to be a good member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It wasn't in that arena for me; it was more in personal choices and personal path and my internal experience of who I was and what I needed to do and could do.  Although I also remember as a very young person, the worst thing I could imagine was being an unwed mother; and I really wondered if it was God's will that unwed mothers (teens) should be stigmatized and, say, disowned from their families, which was going on at the time, very much so.  It was the token sample in my mind and heart of people 'disowning' in the name of God, because that girl had gone against God--hadn't she?  But it troubled me.  And I always imagined that I would grow up and make a place at my table, literally, for those girls, I would invite them into the refuge of my home and feed them and bind up their hearts and so forth.  But I imagined I might have to hide from God to do that.

In order to give the rest of the answer, I am going to reveal a way that I think that may be different than most Latter-day Saints.  I don't share this very often, because I feel too vulnerable about it and it is not mainstream.  Although I think it could be explained within the scriptures or even Latter-day Saint cosmology, but I still don't think too many arrive at this conceptual place.  But it is integral to my understanding of God's will.

First of all, for me GOD is not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, primarily.

GOD is GOD.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are human beings, and have entered the presence of GOD.  I could say more, but this is not the post for that subject.  I'm just trying to give enough for what I do have to say that does apply to the subject.

GOD is EVERYTHING.  GOD is LOVE.  GOD IS THE FABRIC OF LIFE AND CREATION.  GOD is UNION.  GOD is the INHALE.  GOD is the EXHALE.  GOD is the ANSWER.  GOD is the question.  GOD is the part of the sky you can see, knowing that you can't see all of the sky.  GOD is crucified, wounded, crying.  GOD is risen.

There is only God. 

God is you.

So . . . the will of GOD could never be a decision that Heavenly Father, Jesus, or any other person could make over you.  The will of GOD is not a set of commandments.  It is not a timeline or chronology or something done to you or for you.  It is not future or past.  It is not a consideration of obedience nor of submission (at least not to an 'overlord').

The will of God is life and liberty and love.  The will of God IS your agency.  The will of God is knowledge and protection and integrity.   The will of God is your liberation and joy and your capacity to overcome all things (which IS liberation).  The will of God will change in every moment to fit that moment, to be perfectly meet and fitted for that moment, to balance with Up what was once Down, to balance with Down what was once Up (as a metaphor), and will arise like a stream of living water from within YOU (child of God! God!), as far as the details of how life liberty love knowledge protection integrity etc. --those details will change, but the deep sound will not. Sometimes you will know to write a title of Liberty on a cloth and call your community to defensive arms for their family; sometimes you will know to kneel on the ground and allow yourself to be slaughtered because you have covenanted to do no murder.  The will of God is the whisper or the shout that moves you to your next answer or your next question--your next exodus or your next promised land--your next tree of life or your next iron rod you have to hold on to for a while before you taste the fruit.   The will of God is the exquisite, nectar perfection of having the step right in front of you--how to love yourself, how to love the person(s) in your path, how to live right now, how to let go, how to hold on, what to say, do, think, feel right now (not yesterday or tomorrow)--even if that step is in the dark, after all it's not, because the will of God is the map, the voice, the calm within you.  You may surrender to this . . . you don't have to fight anymore . . . that is the only submission.

Once I understood this as God's will, I very clearly understood that GOD would reach the door ahead of me to open it for the unwed mother (++++++ etc) and invite her in to GOD'S house.

On 1/4/2019 at 11:25 AM, changed said:

Sarah vs Elizabeth- who better accepted God's will?

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:50 AM, changed said:

Let's say you have cancer - what should you have faith in - faith to be healed?  Faith to die peacefully?  What do you have faith in?

 

On 1/4/2019 at 11:40 AM, changed said:

caused by God

 

As I already described above, but to repeat, since you are framing this as either-or . . . . God's will is not the same thing in every time or place etc . . . it is perfectly fitted to the time or place etc.

 

On 1/4/2019 at 12:59 PM, changed said:

 saving others

I am already in my 'celestial kingdom'.  This is it.  I'll come back a million times if anything I can do can lift even one person.

On 1/4/2019 at 7:52 PM, changed said:

I have never felt comforted by God, nothing but darkness - feeling completely hollow and empty.

Me too.

But I feel comforted by myself, my friends, my mother, and sweet ministering people.

I felt completely empty for most of my life until I started taking magnesium; and otherwise learned by experience for myself that my internal experiences were a result of my lack of nutrients my brain and emotional (nervous) system needed.

I still don't enjoy traditional prayer; and most of my life, it has been the most excruciating experience -- to kneel and hit WALL, to hit revulsion and fear and humiliation.  (I am also coming to a new understanding of prayer, though.)

I don't feel that Heavenly Father loves me.  I never have.

My body won't let that take place.

Or?

I don't know.  If I knew, I'd do it.

But I do have peace from a journey of agency and of nourishing myself and my body.

////

When Laman and Lemuel and Sam and Nephi were in the boat and the storm came, was it God?  Nephi saw a God who loved him.  Laman saw a God who was in his way.  But God was carrying them both to the Promised Land (which doesn't equal 'everything you ever wanted').  God never withheld anything from any of them.  Laman and Lemuel withheld themselves.

///

I refer you to a book called Whatever Arises, Love That, by Matt Kahn.  Or listen to anything he says on YouTube.

/////

changed, I don't know you, but from what I can tell from your posts here, you are in massive pain, grief, confusion, and fear--and with good reason.  If we were best girlfriends, my friendly but straight up advice for you right now is that you do not need to worry about these kinds of questions and answers right now and maybe never.  It's okay.  You don't have to figure it out.  You don't have to get it right.  You're not doing it wrong.  You're amazing.  You're brave.  The only thing you need to do right now is to find a way, and allow yourself, to REST

changed, you are accepted of the Lord right now just the way you are.

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17 hours ago, changed said:

Do you believe there will ever be a time when there are no more others to "save", a time where all intelligence are refined.... 

The essential part of "eternal progression" is that it never ends.

And what you prefer while clothed in imperfect mortality may not reflect what you would prefer once your spirit is freed from this "mortal coil" of limitations great and small.

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19 hours ago, Buffy said:

I agree with you - we are to problem solve and do what we can improve our situation.  That is why we are given challenges in the first place.  I don't think for a minute you are supposed to just sit and take it.

I agree.  It seems that for the things you can't change - many shrug and say "I guess its God's will"  and I don't like that mentality.  I would rather blame the laws of nature than do the mental gymnastics of rationalizing how a "loving" God would inflict pain and suffering.

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8 hours ago, Maidservant said:

There was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, army came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer. [/quote]

Love that story - a few of the Eastern religions have been giving me great comfort through this.

"God's will" was once a massive struggle for me, until more recently when it has unfolded into a beautiful mystery for me now.  But in the past, I think getting to come to this very creative place, planet Earth, I didn't want to be TOLD anything (as I imagined God's Will equaled God Telling Me What To Do).  I wanted to make my path all by myself; I was pretty sure God's ideas would be stifling and boring.  I wanted to be free.  That may or may not go along with your motivations, but just to say those were mine, and it led to me 'kicking against the pricks' about God's will.  This doesn't mean that I wasn't doing everything I knew how to do to be a good member of The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints.  It wasn't in that arena for me; it was more in personal choices and personal path and my internal experience of who I was and what I needed to do and could do.  Although I also remember as a very young person, the worst thing I could imagine was being an unwed mother; and I really wondered if it was God's will that unwed mothers (teens) should be stigmatized and, say, disowned from their families, which was going on at the time, very much so.  It was the token sample in my mind and heart of people 'disowning' in the name of God, because that girl had gone against God--hadn't she?  But it troubled me.  And I always imagined that I would grow up and make a place at my table, literally, for those girls, I would invite them into the refuge of my home and feed them and bind up their hearts and so forth.  But I imagined I might have to hide from God to do that.

In order to give the rest of answer, I am going to reveal a way that I think that may be different than most Latter-day Saints.  I don't share this very often, because I feel too vulnerable about it and it is not mainstream.  Although I think it could be explained within the scriptures or even Latter-day Saint cosmology, but I still don't think too many arrive at this conceptual place.  But it is integral to my understanding of God's will.

First of all, for me GOD is not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, primarily.

GOD is GOD.

Thanks for that.  I can no longer pray to a Father - the Male patriarchal thing, I just can't do it.  I pray to any loving Spirit who is willing to take pity on me - just trying to find something loving out there.  Not all powerful, not judgmental- just loving.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are human beings, and have entered the presence of GOD.  I could say more, but this is not the post for that subject.  I'm just trying to give enough for what I do have to say that does apply to the subject.

GOD is EVERYTHING.  GOD is LOVE.  GOD IS THE FABRIC OF LIFE AND CREATION.  GOD is UNION.  GOD is the INHALE.  GOD is the EXHALE.  GOD is the ANSWER.  GOD is the question.  GOD is the part of the sky you can see, knowing that you can't see all of the sky.  GOD is crucified, wounded, crying.  GOD is risen.

There is only God. 

God is you.

The Tao .... love the Tao Te Ching.

So . . . the will of GOD could never be a decision that Heavenly Father, Jesus, or any other person could make over you.  The will of GOD is not a set of commandments.  It is not a timeline or chronology or something done to you or for you.  It is not future or past.  It is not a consideration of obedience nor of submission (at least not to an 'overlord').

The will of God is life and liberty and love.  The will of God IS your agency. 

Quote

The eastern theologies of connectedness are a beautiful thing - jealousy, hatred, anger - it is all gone when you see yourself in others and others in yourself, including a connection with the Great Dao.

 

The will of God is knowledge and protection and integrity.   The will of God is your liberation and joy and your capacity to overcome all things (which IS liberation).  The will of God will change in every moment to fit that moment, to be perfectly meet and fitted for that moment, to balance with Up what was once Down, to balance with Down what was once Up (as a metaphor), and will arise like a stream of living water from within YOU (child of God! God!), as far as the details of how life liberty love knowledge protection integrity etc. --those details will change, but the deep sound will not. Sometimes you will know to write a title of Liberty on a cloth and call your community to defensive arms for their family; sometimes you will know to kneel on the ground and allow yourself to be slaughtered because you have covenanted to do no murder.  The will of God is the whisper or the shout that moves you to your next answer or your next question--your next exodus or your next promised land--your next tree of life or your next iron rod you have to hold on to for a while before you taste the fruit.   The will of God is the exquisite, nectar perfection of having the step right in front of you--how to love yourself, how to love the person(s) in your path, how to live right now, how to let go, how to hold on, what to say, do, think, feel right now (not yesterday or tomorrow)--even if that step is in the dark, after all it's not, because the will of God is the map, the voice, the calm within you.  You may surrender to this . . . you don't have to fight anymore . . . that is the only submission.

Once I understood this as God's will, I very clearly understood that GOD would reach the door ahead of me to open it for the unwed mother (++++++ etc) and invite her in to GOD'S house.

 

 

As I already described above, but to repeat, since you are framing this as either-or . . . . God's will is not the same thing in every time or place etc . . . it is perfectly fitted to the time or place etc.

 

I am already in my 'celestial kingdom'.  This is it.  I'll come back a million times if anything I can do can lift even one person.

Me too.

But I feel comforted by myself, my friends, my mother, and sweet ministering people.

I felt completely empty for most of my life until I started taking magnesium; and otherwise learned by experience for myself that my internal experiences were a result of my lack of nutrients my brain and emotional (nervous) system needed.

I still don't enjoy traditional prayer; and most of my life, it has been the most excruciating experience -- to kneel and hit WALL, to hit revulsion and fear and humiliation.  (I am also coming to a new understanding of prayer, though.)

I don't feel that Heavenly Father loves me.  I never have.

My body won't let that take place.

Or?

I don't know.  If I knew, I'd do it.

But I do have peace from a journey of agency and of nourishing myself and my body.

////

When Laman and Lemuel and Sam and Nephi were in the boat and the storm came, was it God?  Nephi saw a God who loved him.  Laman saw a God who was in his way.  But God was carrying them both to the Promised Land (which doesn't equal 'everything you ever wanted').  God never withheld anything from any of them.  Laman and Lemuel withheld themselves.

///

I refer you to a book called Whatever Arises, Love That, by Matt Kahn.  Or listen to anything he says on YouTube.

/////

changed, I don't know you, but from what I can tell from your posts here, you are in massive pain, grief, confusion, and fear--and with good reason.  If we were best girlfriends, my friendly but straight up advice for you right now is that you do not need to worry about these kinds of questions and answers right now and maybe never.  It's okay.  You don't have to figure it out.  You don't have to get it right.  You're not doing it wrong.  You're amazing.  You're brave.  The only thing you need to do right now is to find a way, and allow yourself, to REST

 

Rest - Haha, my vacation is almost over, time to get back to work for me.  

Thank you thank you and thank you again for your kind words, going to save them for later and will read them again when I'm feeling down, so thanks. 

  I know how you feel.  ... be the change you want to see in the world - we can only control ourselves, to see love in the world or in anything, the only thing to do is to give out what you want to see I think.  Relying on others leaves emptiness, relying on yourself brings hope and empowerment.

  thanks manservant, that was beautiful.

 

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32 minutes ago, changed said:

I agree.  It seems that for the things you can't change - many shrug and say "I guess its God's will"  and I don't like that mentality.  I would rather blame the laws of nature than do the mental gymnastics of rationalizing how a "loving" God would inflict pain and suffering.

Those two things aren't mutually exclusive.

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Should we accept God's will to the extent that we know His will?  Yeah.  Is it possible to know God's will in every circumstance in which we might find ourselves?  Color me doubtful. :unknw::huh:  (If we could know God's will in every circumstance, we would be omniscient: we are not; He is.  Is everything that happens in mortality in accordance with His will?  No.  Much of it is simply the result of living in a fallen world, of hap crappening, of man's inhumanity to man which results from the unwise use of agency, of any of mortality's other innumerable vicissitudes, and so forth.  In the short run, might we be better off if we didn't have to face the consequences of living in a fallen world, of hap crappening, and of man's inhumanity to man?  Yes, in the short run.  Is it always easy, given the fact that we do face such consequences, to discern His larger purposes while seeing "through a glass, darkly"?  Would that it were!

Then-Elder-now-President Dallin H. Oaks gave an address a number of years ago about How Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall.  Is a special desire to know and to follow the will of God a strength?  Yes.  Can it become a person's downfall?  Could it lead him to "look beyond the mark"? Could it lead to him being afflicted with the sort of paralysis that can result from refusing to take almost any action unless and until he feels that the Lord has ratified his course?  Could it lead to him claiming special knowledge not available to the rest of humanity and, as a result, to him looking down his nose (whether he admits he's doing so or not) at the rest of humanity?  ("Poor suckers!  If they only knew what I know!"  Denver Snuffer, is that you?)  Yes, on all counts.

I've written ad nauseam here about my own struggles.  Two failed operations in a span of eight months, each of which was followed by a month and a half with my lower body completely immobilized in plaster, which then was followed by months of painful, grueling, and ultimately fruitless physical therapy; finally finding a surgeon who dared to try something different; three more operations within a span of about 18 months, each of which could have led to a similar post-operative course as the first two, but, which, thankfully, did not.  Was it God's will that those first two operations fail so miserably?  I don't think so.  (Hap crappens!)  But I'm as sure as I can possibly be, absent a personal visitation from a messenger telling me so, that it was His will that the latter three operations succeed.  Why only the latter three and not the first two?  Perhaps it simply boils down to my being willing to give Him credit where I think it is due in the latter three instances, while (largely, at least, though I'm certainly not perfect in this regard even now), being willing to forego trying to assign blame in the first two instances.  (Hap crappens!)

And then there's my Gigantic Law School Misadventure: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/law-school-wrong-road/.  Would I be better off if I hadn't gotten a law degree?  Aren't instances in which we earnestly seek, and seek to follow, God's will, supposed to result in "happily-ever-after" endings?  I never got the "happily-ever-after" ending to my law school story, though perhaps it's still being written.  Perhaps many of the "happily-ever-after" endings don't come until after mortality.  Perhaps that's true of my law school story.  I don't know.

 

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17 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Should we accept God's will to the extent that we know His will?  Yeah.  Is it possible to know God's will in every circumstance in which we might find ourselves?  Color me doubtful. :unknw::huh:  (If we could know God's will in every circumstance, we would be omniscient: we are not; He is.  Is everything that happens in mortality in accordance with His will?  No.  Much of it is simply the result of living in a fallen world, of hap crappening, of man's inhumanity to man which results from the unwise use of agency, of any of mortality's other innumerable vicissitudes, and so forth.  In the short run, might we be better off if we didn't have to face the consequences of living in a fallen world, of hap crappening, and of man's inhumanity to man?  Yes, in the short run.  Is it always easy, given the fact that we do face such consequences, to discern His larger purposes while seeing "through a glass, darkly"?  Would that it were!

Then-Elder-now-President Dallin H. Oaks gave an address a number of years ago about How Our Strengths Can Become Our Downfall.  Is a special desire to know and to follow the will of God a strength?  Yes.  Can it become a person's downfall?  Could it lead him to "look beyond the mark"? Could it lead to him being afflicted with the sort of paralysis that can result from refusing to take almost any action unless and until he feels that the Lord has ratified his course?  Could it lead to him claiming special knowledge not available to the rest of humanity and, as a result, to him looking down his nose (whether he admits he's doing so or not) at the rest of humanity?  ("Poor suckers!  If they only knew what I know!"  Denver Snuffer, is that you?)  Yes, on all counts.

I've written ad nauseam here about my own struggles.  Two failed operations in a span of eight months, each of which was followed by a month and a half with my lower body completely immobilized in plaster, which then was followed by months of painful, grueling, and ultimately fruitless physical therapy; finally finding a surgeon who dared to try something different; three more operations within a span of about 18 months, each of which could have led to a similar post-operative course as the first two, but, which, thankfully, did not.  Was it God's will that those first two operations fail so miserably?  I don't think so.  (Hap crappens!)  But I'm as sure as I can possibly be, absent a personal visitation from a messenger telling me so, that it was His will that the latter three operations succeed.  Why only the latter three and not the first two?  Perhaps it simply boils down to my being willing to give Him credit where I think it is due in the latter three instances, while (largely, at least, though I'm certainly not perfect in this regard even now), being willing to forego trying to assign blame in the first two instances.  (Hap crappens!)

And then there's my Gigantic Law School Misadventure: https://greatgourdini.wordpress.com/2017/05/28/law-school-wrong-road/.  Would I be better off if I hadn't gotten a law degree?  Aren't instances in which we earnestly seek, and seek to follow, God's will, supposed to result in "happily-ever-after" endings?  I never got the "happily-ever-after" ending to my law school story, though perhaps it's still being written.  Perhaps many of the "happily-ever-after" endings don't come until after mortality.  Perhaps that's true of my law school story.  I don't know.

 

Not my will but thine be done?  

Not my will - the Buddhist teaching of living without desires...

Let me try to add a ; to your story.  (  you know ";", rather than "."      ;=the sentence is not over yet)  

So I have a PhD - Haha, piled high and deep - graduated, worked in some ptitegeious positions-served my country, did some work for the DOD ... then gave it all up to be a stay at home mom and wife because that is what the church preached to women...  Useless degree?  I was told - by a voice in the sky - to get that useless degree.  Useless?  Not a home-ec degree - nothing that would help me be a better mom... so I did thing, "follow the prophet" , follow the will of God - be a mom.

My oldest asked me, "When you were younger, what did you want to be?"

Ans: an astronaut

DD "so what happened? (Why aren't you an astronaut?"

Ans :"I did something better - I had you."

 

Fast fwd 20 years - I'm no longer a stay at home mom, I'm using that degree again - not the most prestigious school, but I'm a professor. I love my school - I get the ESOL students, the immigrants, the homeless, the heartbroken dropouts trying for round two -and I love them, would not trade them for any Ivy league crowd.  I'm in this beautiful work environment because of my mommy hood sabatical outside of it.  If I had never stepped out, I would still be working in the national laboratories finding more efficient ways to kill immigrants- now instead of killing them, I'm educating them.

Answer those phones Kenngo - it's not just a phone, there are people on the other line - people who need your help are calling you... it doesn't need to be prestigious. 

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2 minutes ago, changed said:

Not my will but thine be done?  

Not my will - the Buddhist teaching of living without desires...

Let me try to add a ; to your story.  (  you know ";", rather than "."      ;=the sentence is not over yet)  

So I have a PhD - Haha, piled high and deep - graduated, worked in some ptitegeious positions-served my country, did some work for the DOD ... then gave it all up to be a stay at home mom and wife because that is what the church preached to women...  Useless degree?  I was told - by a voice in the sky - to get that useless degree.  Useless?  Not a home-ec degree - nothing that would help me be a better mom... so I did thing, "follow the prophet" , follow the will of God - be a mom.

My oldest asked me, "When you were younger, what did you want to be?"

Ans: an astronaut

DD "so what happened? (Why aren't you an astronaut?"

Ans :"I did something better - I had you."

 

Fast fwd 20 years - I'm no longer a stay at home mom, I'm using that degree again - not the most prestigious school, but I'm a professor. I love my school - I get the ESOL students, the immigrants, the homeless, the heartbroken dropouts trying for round two -and I love them, would not trade them for any Ivy league crowd.  I'm in this beautiful work environment because of my mommy hood sabatical outside of it.  If I had never stepped out, I would still be working in the national laboratories finding more efficient ways to kill immigrants- now instead of killing them, I'm educating them.

Answer those phones Kenngo - it's not just a phone, there are people on the other line - people who need your help are calling you... it doesn't need to be prestigious. 

I so admire you.  I did not get to finish college or anything...but you have something behind you that is wonderful.  You would have been a great mom no matter what.

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10 hours ago, Maidservant said:

There was an old farmer who had worked his crops for many years. One day his horse ran away. Upon hearing the news, his neighbors came to visit. "Such bad luck," they said sympathetically. "May be," the farmer replied. The next morning the horse returned, bringing with it three other wild horses. "How wonderful," the neighbors exclaimed. "Maybe," replied the old man. The following day, his son tried to ride one of the untamed horses, was thrown, and broke his leg. The neighbors again came to offer their sympathy on his misfortune. "Maybe," answered the farmer. The day after, army came to the village to draft young men into the army. Seeing that the son's leg was broken, they passed him by. The neighbors congratulated the farmer on how well things had turned out. "Maybe," said the farmer.

 

First of all, for me GOD is not Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ, primarily.

GOD is GOD.

Heavenly Father and Jesus Christ are human beings, and have entered the presence of GOD.  I could say more, but this is not the post for that subject.  I'm just trying to give enough for what I do have to say that does apply to the subject.

GOD is EVERYTHING.  GOD is LOVE.  GOD IS THE FABRIC OF LIFE AND CREATION.  GOD is UNION.  GOD is the INHALE.  GOD is the EXHALE.  GOD is the ANSWER.  GOD is the question.  GOD is the part of the sky you can see, knowing that you can't see all of the sky.  GOD is crucified, wounded, crying.  GOD is risen.

 

 

 

changed, I don't know you, but from what I can tell from your posts here, you are in massive pain, grief, confusion, and fear--and with good reason.  If we were best girlfriends, my friendly but straight up advice for you right now is that you do not need to worry about these kinds of questions and answers right now and maybe never.  It's okay.  You don't have to figure it out.  You don't have to get it right.  You're not doing it wrong.  You're amazing.  You're brave.  The only thing you need to do right now is to find a way, and allow yourself, to REST

changed, you are accepted of the Lord right now just the way you are.

I love this. Thanks for sharing.

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On 1/4/2019 at 1:33 PM, changed said:

No room in the "Inn" .  She knew she was pregnant- she knew when her 9 months were up - she knew the chaos of tax time - bring a tent if there were no caring relatives.  Too proud to let relatives serve?  Or relatives so insensitive?  Everyone went to their own city - their home town.  Planned event, not out of the blue.  Would you put a family member out to the barn?  Who is the crazy one here?  Isn't preparedness a good thing?

 

Just because something happened in the scriptures doesn't mean it was right- doesn't mean it was God's will.

This was not a regularly scheduled tax time, as in that it happened on a regular, periodic basis. It appears to be more of a census or registry for taxes from what I can determine from different articles on the subject.

Glenn

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5 hours ago, changed said:

 

 

Yes, the Dao.  Aztecs(?) called it Teotl.

The mask of, and the revelation of, GOD.  The binding AND the liberation.  The exile AND the coming home.  The descent AND the ascent.

The New Testament calls it Christ.  I am Life.  I am the Way.  (John 14:6) (The Dao is also termed the Way.)  So this grand reality was given an  idiom for the Hebrews two thousand years ago and apparently for many nations (i.e. Gentiles, which means the nations) down through the ages since then.

The Old Testament calls it Asher Ashera:  I am that I am.  The Tree of Life.  The way is marked by the flaming sword, and we will all pass through that flame on our way to that tree.

The Quran also speaks to it: jihad (the struggle) and mercy.

Dharma.  The Way.

I'm sure it is found in many if not all cultures.  As I read recently in The Book of Mormon in the title page and expanded further in 2 Ne 26:12, Jesus Christ is manifested in all nations, kindreds, tongues, and people2 Ne 31: He speaketh unto men according to their language, unto their understanding.  It is the Way and the Life that is manifest, by the Holy Ghost (2 Ne 26:12) which is our own power to hear our own holy spirit and holy self and GOD within us.  Holy is what is whole/holee and healed (=Latin, salvus).  It is the name given.  Not the name on a Jewish man that was born 2000 years ago.  But the name given that we take upon ourselves.  The name given that we give as an answer back to the question of the universe.  Who are YOU?  I am that I am.  I have taken UPON MYSELF the name of CHRIST.  The 'name' is not a syllable and alphabet in English.  The 'name' is a living reality of what and who we are, and who we may come to be.  Come unto CHRIST.  Come unto the Way.  Give in to BRUTIFUL life (as Glennon Doyle Melton says).

Yin  Yang.  There is an opposition in all things.  All things are a compound in one.

Adam  Eve.

Give  Receive.

Stable  Dynamic.  Father Lehi to his sons:  "O that thou mightest be like unto this river, continually running into the fountain of all righteousness . . . . . . . O that thou mightest be like unto this valley, firm and steadfast, and immovable . . ."

Crucified  Risen.

Breathe in.  Breathe out.

YOU, and the body you have taken up within this world, this priesthood garment, the body.

Edited by Maidservant
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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 12:22 PM, changed said:

Submit - not an action word, it sounds like a victim word.

“Submit” is the most empowering word in the English language.  It is also the most enslaving.  It all depends on how it is applied, and to whom it is applied.

For example, you can spend your life (it would be a very short life) trying to resist the laws of gravity, or you can submit to the laws of the universe.  Only  then can you truly fly.  That is what the fathers of aviation had to learn.  Submission to higher laws can only elevate you.

It is the same with God and his willl/laws.  You can become empowered by the laws of love, or you can try to become a law unto yourself and kick against the pricks. 

Edited by pogi
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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, pogi said:

“Submit” is the most empowering word in the English language.  It is also the most enslaving.  It all depends on how it is applied, and to whom it is applied.

For example, you can spend your life (it would be a very short life) trying to resist the laws of gravity, or you can submit to the laws of the universe.  Only  then can you truly fly.  That is what the fathers of aviation had to learn.  Submission to higher laws can only elevate you.

It is the same with God and his willl/laws.  You can become empowered by the laws of love, or you can try to become a law unto yourself and kick against the pricks. 

Submission to the laws of nature vs. Submission to God... Why is it that I love and can accept the laws of nature, but can no longer bring myself to pray to God?  Nature has no free will, no choice, therefore nothing to blame or get angry about I guess....

CSLewis said something to the effect "you don't know the strength of something by laying down and letting it overpower you.... you only truly know it after standing up and fighting"... opposite of submission... Enders Game I guess..

Free will is the act of being a law unto ourselves, is it not?

Edited by changed

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7 hours ago, Jeanne said:

I so admire you.  I did not get to finish college or anything...but you have something behind you that is wonderful.  You would have been a great mom no matter what.

College isn't the end-all-be-all.... I went because others in my fam did not go, they regretted that part of their life - even though their life was beautiful and amazing.  I went to fulfill their dreams, they sacrificed for me.  Left to my own devices, I would have been happy with any old simple thing...  the dance of living for others or being true to yourself, if you can even figure out where your heart really is anyways... i don't like the label of professor- would much rather be a student.

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1 minute ago, changed said:

don't like the label of professor- would much rather be a student.

I prefer the term professional student. 

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 10:50 AM, changed said:

Pg7 - accepting God's will.

How do you know what God's will is? 

I've been observing people for a very long time and I've come to the conclusion that to most people of faith "God's will" is whatever happens to them that is out of their control--health issues, job loss, death of a loved one, etc. Granted, there are some people I know who feel that God gives them personal revelation to pursue a specific course which sometimes seems to turn out well and other times not. In the "not" cases, they usually just chalk it up to not listening properly or to some type of test of faith. (which always gives me a bit of a chuckle.)

It almost seems to be a strategy for adapting healthily to all of the ups and downs of life, keeping a good attitude and pushing forward in a productive way--even when bad things happen. I certainly don't think it means that we should not try to better our lives. I've always felt that God gave me a good brain and common sense that I should use wisely however I see fit. I'm never bitter at God when things go wrong because any honest person can see that we live in a world where bad things happen to good people. If we're okay with bad things happening to other people then we can't logically be mad at God when they happen to us.

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2 hours ago, changed said:

Submission to the laws of nature vs. Submission to God... Why is it that I love and can accept the laws of nature, but can no longer bring myself to pray to God? 

I suspect it is because you trust the laws of nature.  Perhaps it will take some time, healing, and a fresh perspective of God's will before you can trust in God again. 

2 hours ago, changed said:

CSLewis said something to the effect "you don't know the strength of something by laying down and letting it overpower you.... you only truly know it after standing up and fighting"... opposite of submission... Enders Game I guess..

Christ did much good and it was not all about laying down - although he did that too.  He stood up for the poor, the sick, the downtrodden, the lost sheep, the hopeless, the helpless, the needy, he stood up for all good things.  He accomplished more good than any other man that has ever lived or that will ever live.  Could he have accomplished the good he accomplished if he did not submit to God's will?  It is only through submission to God that he was able to stand as he did, to lay his life down as he did, and to take it back up again, as he did. He submitted to the will of God of his own free-will because he understood what love is and that God is love.

2 hours ago, changed said:

Free will is the act of being a law unto ourselves, is it not?

Free will is the choice you have to submit to one master or the other.  Freedom from any master is an illusion. The question is, who will you submit to?

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2 hours ago, changed said:

Submission to the laws of nature vs. Submission to God... Why is it that I love and can accept the laws of nature, but can no longer bring myself to pray to God?  Nature has no free will, no choice, therefore nothing to blame or get angry about I guess....

CSLewis said something to the effect "you don't know the strength of something by laying down and letting it overpower you.... you only truly know it after standing up and fighting"... opposite of submission... Enders Game I guess..

Free will is the act of being a law unto ourselves, is it not?

No, it is to choose what law to venerate.

  34 And again, verily I say unto you, that which is governed by law is also preserved by law and perfected and sanctified by the same.

  35 That which breaketh a law, and abideth not by law, but seeketh to become a law unto itself, and willeth to abide in sin, and altogether abideth in sin, cannot be sanctified by law, neither by mercy, justice, nor judgment. Therefore, they must remain filthy still.

  36 All kingdoms have a law given;

  37 And there are many kingdoms; for there is no space in the which there is no Kingdom; and there is no kingdom in which there is no space, either a greater or a lesser kingdom.

  38 And unto every kingdom is given a a law; and unto every law there are certain bounds also and conditions.

  39 All beings who abide not in those conditions are not justified.

 

I am also convinced that you are taking C.S. Lewis out of context. That quote you referenced is about resisting temptation and pointing out that only good people know the power of evil because they fight temptation and only Christ knows it perfectly because he never gave in and thus knew how hard it was to resist. Those who stop resisting will not understand how hard temptation is because they gave in before it even got hard. This was to point out that only virtuous people know anything about good or evil and  bad people know little about either good or evil because they have led sheltered lives.

In one of his sci-fi books the protagonist is on Mars in a mostly unfallen world. The protagonist tries to explain to the Spirit/angel in charge what Earth is like and the Spirit finally starts to understand that the whole planet is filled with little gods who think they are their own law and that is why it is the “silent planet”, essentially quarantined.

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On 1/4/2019 at 12:50 PM, changed said:

Although I no longer label myself as LDS, I will be attending church in order to stay connected with friends and family.  I have also decided to study  "Come follow me" and will be commenting and asking questions rather than being silent as I have been in the past.   I wanted to run my questions past you all as a trial run if you don't mind.  

 

Pg7 - accepting God's will.

How do you know what God's will is? 

There are many things in my life I don't accept, and have vehemently opposed and succeeded in changing.  If I was Mary, I would not have given birth in a stable - would not have accepted that as God's will, I would have come prepared, had reservations- would have fought until I had what I wanted.  

I don't think God wants us to submit to miserable conditions- I think He also expects us to be self reliant. 

Thoughts?

Excellent question!!

During the Recession of 2008 the last thing I wanted was to move from New England back to the West.

My family and I ended up doing so anyway, despite our self reliance. 9 months later we ended up living somewhere with better weather and better schools than those found in New England.

I've found, after teh fact, that many parts of my life would have passed more smoothly if I hadn't pointlessly defied powers and events beyond my control.

As for Mary and Joseph, the Manger, to me, speaks to the change of heart people had to make in order to see Jesus not as someone like Moses nor Ceasar, not someone who would deliver them from teh ROmans but someone who woudl deliver them from their carnal selves. 

I don't think God was upset at Joseph for not being more prepared.

I think God was proud of Joseph going to many, many Inns before Mary delivered the Savior...or if Mary was in labor, that removes all other variables other than: "We need a place, any place, NOW."

 

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3 hours ago, changed said:

CSLewis said something to the effect "you don't know the strength of something by laying down and letting it overpower you.... you only truly know it after standing up and fighting"... opposite of submission... Enders Game I guess..

C.S. Lewis also said this:

Quote

The principle runs through all life from top to bottom. Give up yourself, and you will find your real self. Lose your life and you will save it. Submit to death, death of your ambitions and favorite wishes every day and the death of your whole body in the end: submit with every fiber of your being, and you will find eternal life. Keep back nothing. Nothing that you have not given away will be really yours. Nothing in you that has not died will ever be raised from the dead. Look for yourself, and you will find in the long run only hatred, loneliness, despair, rage, ruin, and decay. But look for Christ and you will find him, and with him everything else thrown in.

To give up yourself, to lay down your life, your natural man, is to submit to God. The paradox is that in doing so you will only find yourself.  I think of it as a process of remembering who you really are and who you were before this earth life. 

Breathing is an act of submission to physical life.  Submission is the most empowering principle that I know of.  

Submission to God is nothing more that letting your spirit breathe.  I love the symbol of the breath.  Breathing in and out - inspiration and expiration. It is so powerful.  The breath is spiritual life.  It is prayer.  It is communion with God.  It is the emptying of our cup (expiration) so that there is room for God to fill it (inspiration).  It is the laying down of our life (expiration) so that we can find it (inspiration).  It is the sacrifice of our will (expiration) so that we can know and live God's will (inspiration).  It is the death of the natural man (expiration) and the birth of the spiritual man (inspiration). It is intimate communion with God.  It is the tearing down of your heart walls (expiration) so that God can heal you (inspiration).  It is the crying to God (expiration) and hearing his voice (inspiration) in response.  When we allow our spirit to breathe, in and out, we cannot help but be inspired.  It seems to happen naturally.  But breathing always requires expiration - that is the part of the equation that too many people neglect in their spiritual journeys.  They are always in search of inspiration but seldom think to expire.  But when you consider it, the easiest way to inhale, is to first exhale - that is the submission to God.  Once we learn and live the principle of expiration, then inspiration comes naturally. It is inherent in our spiritual nature.  We simply need to allow our spirits to breathe out.  It is an act of faith and can be terrifying, but every time I have tried, I am always filled again with life giving breath (inspiration).  

Quote

 

Once upon a time, there was a wise Zen master. People traveled from far away to seek his help. In return, he would teach them and show them the way to enlightenment.
On this particular day, a scholar came to visit the master for advice. “I have come to ask you to teach me about Zen,” the scholar said.  Soon, it became obvious that the scholar was full of his own opinions and knowledge. He interrupted the master repeatedly with his own stories and failed to listen to what the master had to say. The master calmly suggested that they should have tea.
So the master poured his guest a cup. The cup was filled, yet he kept pouring until the cup overflowed onto the table, onto the floor, and finally onto the scholar’s robes. The scholar cried “Stop! The cup is full already. Can’t you see?”
“Exactly,” the Zen master replied with a smile. “You are like this cup — so full of ideas that nothing more will fit in. Come back to me with an empty cup.”

 

Expiration; inspiration = Submission; empowerment.

interesting that the Greek word for “spirit” is “pneuma”, which means “to breathe”.

 

 

Edited by pogi
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Posted (edited)
On 1/4/2019 at 1:25 PM, changed said:

Compare Elizabeth and Zacharias to Sarah and Abraham. 

Sarah was a problem solver - she knew she was barren, did not just sit around, she solved it by giving Abraham Hagar.  

Elizabeth was barren - was Elizabeth lesser than Sarah because Elizabeth refused to use a handmaid?  

Sarah vs Elizabeth- who better accepted God's will?

Did Sarah act in faith, or did she use logic only? Even though Ishmael was the firstborn son, God's covenant with Abraham went through Isaac.   So it appears that God's chosen people were not a result of Sarah's problem solving, but God's promise to Abraham.

Barren Elisabeth received the blessing of a child from the Lord through a promise made to her husband, Zacharias in their old age.  So it doesn't appear to be due to anything Elisabeth did, other than participate in God's promise to Zacharias.

Both Sarah and Elisabeth ultimately accepted God's will, but not due to their faith or purposeful behavior, in my opinion.  

Your question strikes me as a draw.

Edited by Meerkat

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10 hours ago, Meerkat said:

Did Sarah act in faith, or did she use logic only? Even though Ishmael was the firstborn son, God's covenant with Abraham went through Isaac.   So it appears that God's chosen people were not a result of Sarah's problem solving, but God's promise to Abraham.

Barren Elisabeth received the blessing of a child from the Lord through a promise made to her husband, Zacharias in their old age.  So it doesn't appear to be due to anything Elisabeth did, other than participate in God's promise to Zacharias.

Both Sarah and Elisabeth ultimately accepted God's will, but not due to their faith or purposeful behavior, in my opinion.  

Your question strikes me as a draw.

Are you familiar with "the law of Sarah"? It was the foundation for Joseph's polygamy. I agree, at first look it appears Sarah had no faith in herself, saw herself as not being good enough to carry out God's will.... was she commanded to give another to her husband as Joseph was commanded to take another wife?  Or did Sarah act out of insecurity.

I made the comparison because of symbolism - Abraham represents HF, Isaac represents Jesus... and there is a handmaid involved.... Abraham did not kill his son, and Sarah did not have to rely on a handmaid - Abraham and Sarah were both let off at the last minute, neither made the ultimate sacrifice to God's will... but in the case of the Savior, Mary really was a handmaid.  Our Heavenly Mother had to use a mortal handmaid.

Edited by changed
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11 hours ago, pogi said:

 

interesting that the Greek word for “spirit” is “pneuma”, which means “to breathe”.

 

Thank you pogi-what a wonderful post for meditation.

The breath of life... The birth of the Savior, the birth of Adam - the transgression needed before Eve could have children - the process of childbirth.... Eve's curse involved the breath of life... but there is another birth.

Yin/Yang....

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