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Rumors of Changes to Temple Worship

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1 hour ago, the narrator said:

The first presidency said that it came by revelation. How does that contradict what Rockpond said?

They said more about the revelatory process though than just that.  And rockpond specifically said that he believes the temple ceremony to be man-made, where, once consensus was reached among the apostles and prophet, it was deemed to be the will of the Lord and the changes were made.

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11 minutes ago, bluebell said:

They said more about the revelatory process though than just that.  And rockpond specifically said that he believes the temple ceremony to be man-made, where, once consensus was reached among the apostles and prophet, it was deemed to be the will of the Lord and the changes were made.

I look forward to hearing what is said about the revelatory process in that temple introduction.

The idea that a consensus among the FP and Q12 means that the will of the Lord has been determined is not my idea, it comes from the Prophet:

"When we convene as a Council of the First Presidency and Quorum of the Twelve, our meeting rooms become rooms of revelation. The Spirit is palpably present. As we wrestle with complex matters, a thrilling process unfolds as each Apostle freely expresses his thoughts and point of view. Though we may differ in our initial perspectives, the love we feel for each other is constant. Our unity helps us to discern the Lord’s will for His Church.

"In our meetings, the majority never rules! We listen prayerfully to one another and talk with each other until we are united. Then when we have reached complete accord, the unifying influence of the Holy Ghost is spine-tingling! We experience what the Prophet Joseph Smith knew when he taught, “By union of feeling we obtain power with God.”7 No member of the First Presidency or Quorum of the Twelve would ever leave decisions for the Lord’s Church to his own best judgment!"  (April 2018 General Conference)

And earlier...

"Trust me! These 15 men—prophets, seers, and revelators—know what the will of the Lord is when unanimity is reached!" (October 2014 General Conference)

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On 1/10/2019 at 10:15 AM, Bernard Gui said:

I would gladly give you some of my chocolate for some of your chilies. I prefer Chimayo, but will settle for Hatch. Have you tried a Carolina Reaper?

I live about 40 or so miles from the Hatch valley in NM. There ain't nothing like chile roasting season here. Every grocery store has roasters outside. You buy your fresh chiles, take 'em out and get 'em roasted, take 'em home, skin 'em, separate 'em, and freeze 'em. Of course you leave some fresh for the next week or two. Fresh roasted Hatch green chile is so damn good.

And the smell around town with all the various places roasting is awesome.

Come on down sometime to the Hatch chile festival. Yumminess is to be had!

Oh, and a note. Make sure your chile is actually Hatch chile from Hatch NM. The Hatch chile company (the one with the cans in grocery stores) has the name Hatch but doesn't use Hatch chiles. Instead, they use poblanos, mainly from California. There's been lawsuits over this (one judge called Hatch valley the Napa valley for chile. Damn straight). Growers in the valley use certification on their products, so look for that.

Finally, our official state question is: red or green? :) 

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3 hours ago, the narrator said:

I wasn't going to make that point explicit, but yeah. I think this is why Packer called the Proclamation on the Family a revelation some years ago, as that came about from a process just like that. And I wonder if that description in his talk was soon changed because it didn't align with tradition of revelation among the leaders being something different. Much of The Brethren's authority is grounded in the implied myth of their epistemically privileged/unique revelation, so pulling back the curtain on that can simultaneously be a threat to authority, balm for those like you, and a cause for faith crises.

On the other hand I do not mind saying that in my own life real "magic" happens more when I have been following the gospel than when I get off the path.

I am definitely willing to guess that the 15 are more "on the path" than I am and so more "magic" could possibly happening to them.

Of course there is no way to verify that.

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13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

I live about 40 or so miles from the Hatch valley in NM. There ain't nothing like chile roasting season here. Every grocery store has roasters outside. You buy your fresh chiles, take 'em out and get 'em roasted, take 'em home, skin 'em, separate 'em, and freeze 'em. Of course you leave some fresh for the next week or two. Fresh roasted Hatch green chile is so damn good.

And the smell around town with all the various places roasting is awesome.

Come on down sometime to the Hatch chile festival. Yumminess is to be had!

Oh, and a note. Make sure your chile is actually Hatch chile from Hatch NM. The Hatch chile company (the one with the cans in grocery stores) has the name Hatch but doesn't use Hatch chiles. Instead, they use poblanos, mainly from California. There's been lawsuits over this (one judge called Hatch valley the Napa valley for chile. Damn straight). Growers in the valley use certification on their products, so look for that.

Finally, our official state question is: red or green? :) 

Well I can tell I have to have permission from my gastroenterologist before we get together.....  ;)

I am going to be in that area in a few weeks..... maybe- not certain!

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14 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

On the other hand I do not mind saying that in my own life real "magic" happens more when I have been following the gospel than when I get off the path.

I am definitely willing to guess that the 15 are more "on the path" than I am and so more "magic" could possibly happening to them.

Of course there is no way to verify that.

That could be the case, I guess, though that would change make the difference a matter of degree than type.

However, I terribly dislike the implication of that reasoning. A couple decades ago on my mission (I can't believe it's been that long), we had a couple zone leaders making some really stupid decisions and accusations based on their belief that they were being inspired to do so. In a heated argument during a zone meeting, one of them claimed that our mission president was the most righteous person in the mission and that Gordon B. Hinckley was the most righteous person in not just the Church but the entire world. It was pretty clear what he was trying to imply by this, so I called him out on it: "So let me guess, you think you're the most righteous person in the zone, right?" He replied by stuttering an affirmative, and then I needed to step between him and a polynesian elder (who was the target of one of the false allegations) who was about to punch the zone leader. 

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12 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

I live about 40 or so miles from the Hatch valley in NM. There ain't nothing like chile roasting season here. Every grocery store has roasters outside. You buy your fresh chiles, take 'em out and get 'em roasted, take 'em home, skin 'em, separate 'em, and freeze 'em. Of course you leave some fresh for the next week or two. Fresh roasted Hatch green chile is so damn good.

And the smell around town with all the various places roasting is awesome.

Come on down sometime to the Hatch chile festival. Yumminess is to be had!

Oh, and a note. Make sure your chile is actually Hatch chile from Hatch NM. The Hatch chile company (the one with the cans in grocery stores) has the name Hatch but doesn't use Hatch chiles. Instead, they use poblanos, mainly from California. There's been lawsuits over this (one judge called Hatch valley the Napa valley for chile. Damn straight). Growers in the valley use certification on their products, so look for that.

Finally, our official state question is: red or green? :) 

Hey! You are speaking my language! I grew up in Los Alamos. Up north, Chimayo chilies are the touchstone. I swear by them. My cousin sends me a ristra now and then.

I was in a fair in Alamosa CO a while back. Some guys from Hatch were roasting chilies. The smell is so good and unforgettable. They used 55 gallon drums whose lids were replaced with removable metal screens, all mounted on a revolving mechanism that turned them slowly. The flame was supplied by some sort of industrial burner. They roasted the chilies several bushels at a time and sold them in big black trash bags. I went up to talk with them and learned that they were franchisers. They offered to set me up with all the necessary stuff to start a booth at the Washington State Fair. I now regret not taking them up on it!

Last year, a friend drove down to Las Cruces on some family business. Another fellow in our ward who grew up in Albuquerque and I asked him to stop in Hatch and bring us a big bag of roasted chilies. On his way home, he started to choke up, his eyes started watering and nose running. He figured it was the chilies in the back of his RV, so he tied them to the roof! We got our chilies. I still have a few baggies in the freezer.

I would love to go down and enjoy some with you [and Bukowski!!]. What’s the best green chili burger place in your town? We used to get them at Lotaburger in Santa Fe. No one around here really appreciates their greatness. Heathens.

Answer to your question: yes, of course.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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40 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

Well I can tell I have to have permission from my gastroenterologist before we get together.....  ;)

I am going to be in that area in a few weeks..... maybe- not certain!

You can slowly build up your tolerance and then be ready for the full experience if you start now.

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2 hours ago, the narrator said:

That could be the case, I guess, though that would change make the difference a matter of degree than type.

However, I terribly dislike the implication of that reasoning. A couple decades ago on my mission (I can't believe it's been that long), we had a couple zone leaders making some really stupid decisions and accusations based on their belief that they were being inspired to do so. In a heated argument during a zone meeting, one of them claimed that our mission president was the most righteous person in the mission and that Gordon B. Hinckley was the most righteous person in not just the Church but the entire world. It was pretty clear what he was trying to imply by this, so I called him out on it: "So let me guess, you think you're the most righteous person in the zone, right?" He replied by stuttering an affirmative, and then I needed to step between him and a polynesian elder (who was the target of one of the false allegations) who was about to punch the zone leader. 

Yeah I agree- that kind of allegation is ridiculous and not a justified conclusion and is a matter of UNMEASURABLE degree rather than type.  So why even make the assertion?

Again back to language games- for me this observation about my own internal state is strictly that and I make no claims about what even "causes" the "magic" that I experience.  For all I know it could be completely psychological in that when I believe thus and so, thus and so happens in my life because I believe it will.  That would be another context, one that perhaps a shrink, in shrink context would call it ;)  That would be what is called the "placebo effect"

I have no problem with that possibility but that is not what I experience.  I experience the presence of a loving being who helps me along the path when I am doing what that possibly illusory loving being wants me to do.

It is purely my subjective experience, it is a "raw feel" as Rorty would say,  but dang it, it works in my life and the delusion if it is one makes me happy.  Can't ask for more than that.  

The problem lies in the idea that anyone experiences anything "beyond"..... wait for it...  what they experience personally.  ;)

When we attempt to put "raw feels" into language, fergitboutit ain't nobody gonna believe you anyway.  The very act of putting it into language makes the private suddenly into a public context makes them other than private and therefore totally out of context to even discuss!  Such ideas are literally "unspeakable" because speaking about them already takes them out of context.

Like the Heisenberg Uncertainty principle, the act of observation itself changes what is observed

It is similar to the problems in philosophy of the mind in speaking about qualia - where is the "blue" in discussion of angstrom units in the spectrum of visible light?  There are no "blue" angstrom units!- wrong language game/context/community!

It's pretty simple logic really- first person statements about ME cannot be made logically equivalent to third person statements about what others observe about me.

That is what mindfulness meditation is about- it gets one out of "thought" and into observations OF thoughts- still all in the private realm, still while keeping it all in the private context.

Claiming that you observe "blue" better than someone else is absurd- or that someone else can see blue better than you can (assuming normal vision etc) is absurd as well I think.  There is no basis for comparison- no way to get out of "my head" into "his head".

We just see "blue" and not angstrom units, we just feel "inspiration" not brain chemical changes nor God putting the ideas into our minds, nor an ability to see God putting a "better" revelation into someone else's mind.

Regardless of what is "really happening"- if that even could make sense- we only see what we can see.  That is a tautology and I cannot imagine how anyone could find that assertion "false"!   

We can only know... what we can know!!  You want an eternal truth?   There it is!  Prove that we can know what we can't know! ;)

 

 

Edited by mfbukowski
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2 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

You can slowly build up your tolerance and then be ready for the full experience if you start now.

Yeahbut...

Too much heartburn and not enough motivation to have more....   I could also keep hitting my thumb with a hammer to build up tolerance but my motivation level to do so is not quite high enough.  ;)

 

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On 1/4/2019 at 11:48 AM, Stargazer said:

Portland's Celestial Room isn't tiny, either!  AND it has two floors!

It is lovely... a marble staircase leads to the second mezzanine-style floor... 

GG

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4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

Hey! You are speaking my language! I grew up in Los Alamos. Up north, Chimayo chilies are the touchstone. I swear by them. My cousin sends me a ristra now and then.

I was in a fair in Alamosa CO a while back. Some guys from Hatch were roasting chilies. The smell is so good and unforgettable. They used 55 gallon drums whose lids were replaced with removable metal screens, all mounted on a revolving mechanism that turned them slowly. The flame was supplied by some sort of industrial burner. They roasted the chilies several bushels at a time and sold them in big black trash bags. I went up to talk with them and learned that they were franchisers. They offered to set me up with all the necessary stuff to start a booth at the Washington State Fair. I now regret not taking them up on it!

Last year, a friend drove down to Las Cruces on some family business. Another fellow in our ward who grew up in Albuquerque and I asked him to stop in Hatch and bring us a big bag of roasted chilies. On his way home, he started to choke up, his eyes started watering and nose running. He figured it was the chilies in the back of his RV, so he tied them to the roof! We got our chilies. I still have a few baggies in the freezer.

I would love to go down and enjoy some with you [and Bukowski!!]. What’s the best green chili burger place in your town? We used to get them at Lottaburger in Santa Fe. No one around here really appreciates their greatness. Heathens.

Answer to your question: yes, of course.

Awesome!

Yes, those gallon drums with screens and propane burners are exactly what is all over Las Cruces during roasting season. I live in Mesilla, just west of LC. We're a small village without any grocery stores, but our one gas station sets out a roaster.

Did you ever go to the Owl Bar and Cafe? It's about halfway between Albuquerque and Las Cruces (near Socorro). It's well known for its green chile burgers. They're great, but they definitely make a marketing ploy out of it, which is fine.

http://www.sanantonioowl.com

And I'm with you on the question. Server: "Red or green?" Me: "Christmas!"

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2 hours ago, mfbukowski said:

Yeahbut...

Too much heartburn and not enough motivation to have more....   I could also keep hitting my thumb with a hammer to build up tolerance but my motivation level to do so is not quite high enough.  ;)

 

Your analogy fails, because hitting your thumb hurts, but eating New Mexico chile is the closest thing to the Beatific Vision (or even the celestial kingdom) one can come to in this world!

I can only imagine what mystical poetry St. John of the Cross would have written had he had freshly roasted NM green chile... ;) 

ETA: ever see that Simpsons episode where Homer eats the hottest chili and has a psychedelic/mystical experience? Heh.

Edited by MiserereNobis
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13 minutes ago, MiserereNobis said:

Your analogy fails, because hitting your thumb hurts, but eating New Mexico chile is the closest thing to the Beatific Vision (or even the celestial kingdom) one can come to in this world!

I can only imagine what mystical poetry St. John of the Cross would have written had he had freshly roasted NM green chile... ;) 

ETA: ever see that Simpsons episode where Homer eats the hottest chili and has a psychedelic/mystical experience? Heh.

LLOL!  (literally laugh out loud!)

Again a simple proof that our beliefs about such matters are purely subjective.  So I win and you lose!  Neener neener!!

Trust me, for me it would hurt!   ;);)

 

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6 minutes ago, mfbukowski said:

LLOL!  (literally laugh out loud!)

Again a simple proof that our beliefs about such matters are purely subjective.  So I win and you lose!  Neener neener!!

Trust me, for me it would hurt!   ;);)

 

Then I humbly offer you pril-osec, tum-s, and pep-to bis-mol. because it seems ordained by the good Lord above that if we meet we are going to have to eat some chile together :P 

(I figure after 43 pages of a thread that I didn't read closely because I don't know temple stuff, a good tangent about chile is quite warranted)

ETA: I had to add the dashes because I got the dreaded 403 error from the board's filter...

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1 hour ago, MiserereNobis said:

Then I humbly offer you pril-osec, tum-s, and pep-to bis-mol. because it seems ordained by the good Lord above that if we meet we are going to have to eat some chile together :P 

(I figure after 43 pages of a thread that I didn't read closely because I don't know temple stuff, a good tangent about chile is quite warranted)

ETA: I had to add the dashes because I got the dreaded 403 error from the board's filter...

Yeah I think they call those "scare dashes".   Very scary stuff. 😳

 

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6 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

Did you ever go to the Owl Bar and Cafe? It's about halfway between Albuquerque and Las Cruces (near Socorro). It's well known for its green chile burgers. They're great, but they definitely make a marketing ploy out of it, which is fine.

I’m getting hungry.

I only made it south of Socorro three times...once as a child to visit the Caverns and White Sands and twice as a teen to attend a Boy Scout camporee near Chihuahua and the NMSU music camp.

 

Edited by Bernard Gui

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16 hours ago, MiserereNobis said:

... Fresh roasted Hatch green chile is so damn good. ... [Emphasis added by Kenngo1969]

Why, those of us who are of tender eyes, of tender ears, and of tender years are offended by such language!  Positively offended, we tell you! :o :blink: :shok: 

;) :D :rofl: 

(And if ya think I'm still of tender years, I gotta bridge I wanna sell ya ... cheap!)  I can hardly keep from snickering to myself when one of my customers, on the phone, says to me, "Thank you, young man."  I think, If only s/he knew!  If only s/he knew!)  

But don't worry: While I'm absolutely certain that such language is so egregious that it would have earned you an outright ban, I let it slide and didn't reportcha ta the Mods ... this time!  Butcha better watch yerself, there, Pilgrim! :D 

Edited by Kenngo1969

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4 hours ago, Bernard Gui said:

I’m getting hungry.

I only made it south of Socorro three times...once as a child to visit the Caverns and White Sands and twice as a teen to attend a Boy Scout camporee near Chihuahua and the NMSU music camp.

 

Boy, I bet the mission was a rude awakening in some ways, wasn't it? ;):D  (My dad never served a mission, but he talks a lot about how some of the things he saw in the service as a US Army MP were a rude awakening for a small-town Utah kid.)  

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4 hours ago, Kenngo1969 said:

Boy, I bet the mission was a rude awakening in some ways, wasn't it? ;):D  (My dad never served a mission, but he talks a lot about how some of the things he saw in the service as a US Army MP were a rude awakening for a small-town Utah kid.)  

I meant that I had been in southern New Mexico only three times during the 22 years I lived in Los Alamos. Socorro is a town south of Albuquerque that I used as a reference point. Sorry for the confusion. I got around a lot more than that, but I was a small town kid. Still can’t abide big cities. You are right. The poverty and violence I saw in Central America were a rude awakening.

Edited by Bernard Gui

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