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HappyJackWagon

Rumors of Changes to Temple Worship

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16 minutes ago, ksfisher said:

At 20 minutes it would seem like most of the teaching would be lost. 

Maybe. Or the most important teachings are emphasized.

I remember I used to really study the presentation in the films, searching for symbolism and meaning. It may have been foolish but until recently I only knew a couple of temple films so I thought everything mattered. Turns out the meaning I thought was there in one film really didn't translate into the same symbols or visuals in a different film so I was more likely seeing minor artistic interpretations as if they were eternally significant symbols.

The basics of the creation and garden story can be shared from the scriptures. The covenants can be explained and accepted. There can be an interaction at the veil. That really wouldn't take very long.

 

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Given that the endowment presentation used to be handled in Brigham Young's office, it is likely an acceptable stripped-down version exists. 

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14 minutes ago, juliann said:

I've done that recently. 

At some point, they are going to have to stop making women pledge to their husbands instead of God. Hopefully that will happen before a sizeable number of young women stop going. Many (online ) women have reported being given surveys on the temple so they must be concerned. 

So...I have never been through the temple.  But early in my life when I was planning to be sealed, I had LDS women tell me that in their first time and getting married, when it got to this point as you mentioned above, they almost...wanted to walk out. 

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24 minutes ago, juliann said:

I've done that recently. 

At some point, they are going to have to stop making women pledge to their husbands instead of God. Hopefully that will happen before a sizeable number of young women stop going. Many (online ) women have reported being given surveys on the temple so they must be concerned. 

I’d be shocked if this “subservience in ordinance” wasn’t eliminated in my lifetime. It was softened in 1990 (maybe earlier, too?), so there’s clearly little of import about women “hearkening” or “obeying” their husbands.

Masonry was/is dominated by men; it is natural that Joseph Smith would introduce a male-dominated endowment liturgy as well.

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3 hours ago, Buffy said:

it isn't always just about you - maybe you need to do something for someone else while you are trying to approach God.

Well stated

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2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm talking about going specifically to the temple to pray and not to participate in an ordinance, and not having to dress in the robes to enter into the Celestial room.  

Yes, I know. That's why I said we "sorta" already do that. You don't need your robes to enter the Celestial Room, at least not in Cardston or Calgary.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I believe Heaven will contain a multitude of different peoples and I think Mormon theology is compatible with this. 

If they comply with the laws and ordinances of the Celestial Kingdom, sure.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

 The people participating in the ordinance would still need to have a recommend, I'm just talking about the people observing the ordinance and supporting them.  I believe there is historical precedent if I'm not mistaken for non-members in the community attending the Kirtland dedication.  The temples didn't start out as secretive as they later evolved into being. 

Sure, lots of things were done differently the first time they occurred. There's no precedent for members participating in or observing Nauvoo era ordinances.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

The reasons the Nauvoo period was shrouded in secrecy can be directly attributed to polygamy and Joseph's attempts to keep all of that very secret and the connections to Masonry as a mechanism of keeping it secret. 

CFR.

2 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

But we've started to shed much of the original Masonic imagery as the temple rituals have evolved and as modern members are less comfortable with those kinds of rituals.  You can even see that Mormons are more comfortable with the temple clothing as we've posted pictures of it online. 

The fact that members are comfortable with temple clothing bucks against the idea that we're less comfortable with rituals.

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11 minutes ago, cinepro said:

Yeah, about that...

ZCMI.jpg

They were just trying to get to the finish line early.  Too bad we lost those lofty ideals somewhere along the line...

Zech 14:20  In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the Lord’s house shall be like the bowls before the altar.

21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the Lord of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the Lord of hosts.

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10 hours ago, SouthernMo said:

Put differently, I’d like to learn more about the destination, rather than focus on the journey.  That would motivate me (and others?) to take temple worship more seriously than any changes to speed up the path to the veil.

One can stay in the room as long as one wishes and receive all the instruction one could want. 

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2 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Given that the endowment presentation used to be handled in Brigham Young's office, it is likely an acceptable stripped-down version exists. 

Unfortunately people don't all agree on what is presentation and what is endowment.  Joseph gave six men their endowment all by himself in the Red Brick Store.  It apparently took a while but they managed.

But when we drop bits of presentation sadly parts of the actual endowment have gone with it.  Just as Isaiah prophesied we would.

 

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2 hours ago, Jeanne said:

So...I have never been through the temple.  But early in my life when I was planning to be sealed, I had LDS women tell me that in their first time and getting married, when it got to this point as you mentioned above, they almost...wanted to walk out. 

That particular covenant is what has solidified, preserved, and sanctified the Gui marriage. We both take it very seriously, but there is no subservience involved.

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7 hours ago, The Nehor said:

And cost us a ton of symbolism. :( 

And learning.

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12 hours ago, JLHPROF said:

Unfortunately people don't all agree on what is presentation and what is endowment.  Joseph gave six men their endowment all by himself in the Red Brick Store.  It apparently took a while but they managed.

But when we drop bits of presentation sadly parts of the actual endowment have gone with it.  Just as Isaiah prophesied we would.

 

The only way this could be true is if you consider the church to have fallen into some level of apostasy regarding temple theology and practice. Is that the case?

IMO- what we call the "endowment" is bloated with personal opinion and preference of those who have had a hand in preparing it. I'm sure it's all been done with best of intentions but there's no way that the ideas of man haven't crept into the endowment. So it would be extremely hard to know what is actual endowment from God and what is the philosophy of men mingled with endowment.

Also, I've heard many people mention that as presentation changes we lose symbolism. So what? Symbolism isn't the end goal. Symbolism is merely a tool to share information. If that symbolism no longer teaches the proper information to the average member, then what's it's use. It's kind of like old testament symbolism. I'm sure that much of it was relatable to people back 2000 years ago, but is largely lost on people of today's world. So is it better to maintain the symbols people don't understand, with the expectation that they go into deep study to understand the daily practice and lives of the ancient people, or could it be more useful to update some of the symbolism or remove that which is unproductive in achieving the overarching purpose?

15 hours ago, Bob Crockett said:

Given that the endowment presentation used to be handled in Brigham Young's office, it is likely an acceptable stripped-down version exists. 

Bob, I'm not familiar with this. Are you saying that Brigham gave the endowment to people in his office (similar to the Red Brick Store), or are you saying the preparation for the endowment presentation was created in his office?

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23 minutes ago, Avatar4321 said:

Are there portions other than the Adam and Eve portion? @Maidservant

It is my own idea; but it is my understanding that all of the Genesis material is a template for progression.  I have no other source or indication than my own mind, but I have wondered if there haven't once been ceremonial versions of all of that material; and thus I also look forward to that once again.  I'm not stuck on it, but that is how I see it at this time.

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15 hours ago, Calm said:

Just to be clear, you don't believe the ordinances are actual eternal covenants, do you?  They may be vehicles for teaching spiritual truths that could be learned elsewhere in your view...are they anything else?

If so, your desired changes make sense in that they would create a nice place to experience whatever spirituality we desire, but not really anything much more imo.  The temple simply becomes a beautiful building that draws our minds to spiritual things if we so desire, but can also just be a tourist destination like those who visit the cathedrals of Europe or the ancient temples of Asia.

I think someone could still view the ordinances as important and a necessary covenant to make and support the suggestions I've made at the same time. 

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On 12/27/2018 at 7:30 AM, HappyJackWagon said:

As we know, a person (or group) can go to the temple and be baptized for 150 people within the same time it takes a person to do 1 endowment.

Only one person is baptized at a time, while many people participate in the endowment ceremony simultaneously. I don't think this is an issue.

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14 hours ago, halconero said:
17 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

I'm talking about going specifically to the temple to pray and not to participate in an ordinance, and not having to dress in the robes to enter into the Celestial room.  

Yes, I know. That's why I said we "sorta" already do that. You don't need your robes to enter the Celestial Room, at least not in Cardston or Calgary.

Thats good to hear.  I would love it if this were the case in all temples.   Honestly, I've never tried to enter the Celestial room without being dressed in the robes, so I wasn't aware this was even possible.  

14 hours ago, halconero said:
Quote

I believe Heaven will contain a multitude of different peoples and I think Mormon theology is compatible with this. 

If they comply with the laws and ordinances of the Celestial Kingdom, sure.

Even through a lens of compliance, Mormonism teaches that they will be judged by God about whether they comply and not by humans.  So nobody can be the judge of who will make it into the Celestial kingdom, Mormon or non-Mormon or atheist or Buddhist.  

14 hours ago, halconero said:

Sure, lots of things were done differently the first time they occurred. There's no precedent for members participating in or observing Nauvoo era ordinances.

I'm guessing you meant to say there is no precedent for Non-Members to participate in Nauvoo era ordinances.  I'm not entirely sure this is correct. While I can't personally think of any non-members receiving the ordinances, but it might be possible and I haven't studied the history well enough to make such a claim.  As for people "observing" temple rituals, well now you've significantly expanded the claim, and I definitely think this would be very difficult to make such a statement with any degree of certainty on your part.  

15 hours ago, halconero said:
Quote

The reasons the Nauvoo period was shrouded in secrecy can be directly attributed to polygamy and Joseph's attempts to keep all of that very secret and the connections to Masonry as a mechanism of keeping it secret. 

CFR.

Can you clarify specifically what you want me to CFR.  I'm not making a very specific claim here, more of a broad observation from my reading of the history.  Are you wanting me to provide evidence that polygamy was taking place in Nauvoo?  Or do you want me to provide evidence that it was a secret practice?  Or perhaps you want me to provide evidence that Masonry was practiced?  All of these things seem pretty obvious to anyone who's read Nauvoo era history.  Please let me know what specifically you are looking for.  Thanks

15 hours ago, halconero said:
Quote

But we've started to shed much of the original Masonic imagery as the temple rituals have evolved and as modern members are less comfortable with those kinds of rituals.  You can even see that Mormons are more comfortable with the temple clothing as we've posted pictures of it online. 

The fact that members are comfortable with temple clothing bucks against the idea that we're less comfortable with rituals.

Can you clarify this point, I'm not sure I understand?  Members haven't always been "comfortable with temple clothing".  I'm not sure they even are today, but there has been a more open approach from the institution in recent years as I mentioned earlier.  How does this apply to the members comfort level with the rituals?  Are you saying that church members are less comfortable with talking about the rituals today than they were in the past?  That is possible, but I'm not sure its entirely supported by our history.  I can think of early church leaders who talked much more openly about the temple rituals, Brigham Young for example.  

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10 hours ago, Maidservant said:
22 hours ago, hope_for_things said:

And lastly, I think everyone should be able to attend a temple sealing event, members and non-members alike.

This would result in non-members receiving a token without authority or covenant or journey or preparation or understanding or (proved) righteousness--the highest token in fact.  The sealing covenant is not simply another covenant, it is the culminating covenant of which the participants must already be fulfilling the previous.  I think that a better change would be that NO ONE witnesses the covenant except the two making it and those administering and the two priesthood witnesses.

I do like the idea of separating weddings and sealings.  In fact, I don't agree with weddings.  I think they mock marriages.  But that's me.

What about children that attend and participate in a sealing as they haven't participated in the endowment.  

Also, I'm not sure what you mean that they would receive a token.  If you're referring to the hands of the participants, and where they are placed, an observer is only seeing a small part of something they wouldn't otherwise have any context to understanding.  There is no discussion of those symbols and covenants in specific during the temple sealing.  I don't see any harm in that personally. 

 

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40 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Only one person is baptized at a time, while many people participate in the endowment ceremony simultaneously. I don't think this is an issue.

Good point :) 

And I'm sure it's different in various temples, but I know our endowment rooms do not fit anywhere close to 150 people so personally I would still expect some lag between baptisms and endowments. But like you say, it's probably not as bad as I was thinking.

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