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Sealings toToxic people

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2 hours ago, poptart said:

See, that's why I came out and asked if we just murdered each other if we'd be perfect in the afterlife.  Doesn't make sense to me that one can live a "sinful" life and have it all magically go away.  Look at the Heavenly realms of the gods, both east and west and you'll see all kinds of disfunction.   Character development takes work.

The sin does go away as if by magic (thanks to the grace of Christ); the behavior and attitudes, on the other hand, do not magically go away, those will require work.  We have a thousand years to work on that before final judgment.  Those who don't improve their behaviors, won't receive exaltation...that simple.  Even after final judgment, there will be eternal progression.  No changes magically come without work - I agree with you there. 

Edited by pogi

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10 minutes ago, pogi said:

The sin does go away as if by magic (thanks to the grace of Christ); the behavior and attitudes, on the other hand, do not magically go away, those will require work.  We have a thousand years to work on that before final judgment.  Those who don't improve their behaviors, won't receive exaltation...that simple.  Even after final judgment, there will be eternal progression.  No changes magically come without work - I agree with you there. 

That was always one of the biggest gripes I had about Christianity, at least here stateside.  Blood of Christ fixes things?  Fine.  What I saw for the most part was the same bad behavior continuing, then repentance and so forth.  Worst part was how the entitlement would sink in, how some would think they were elect and special, that they were above all else because of their wealth and station in life.  One memory I have was how one of my old housemates came from a good,  upper class TBM family, he wasn't even 30 and had tried every drug under the sun.  Real shocking thing for me, think he was the only son and because of him the family line was kinda toast.  Seen it happen in my family, fathers side at one time was the typical wholesome American family on steroids, now with the passing of the patriarch they're all going down the drain, sad. 

Grace is nice and all but success comes from hard work and sacrifice, not the favor of deity.  If that was true, then why do people lock their doors at night?  Why do churches now have to pay for more security?  Life is cruel and people are what they are.  This is also why i've always gravitated towards the older school of deity, like us they do horrible things.  In the Heart Sutra Buddha had to deal with very arrogant gods who looked at humans as stinky, stunted things.  He simply outshone them with light brighter than the sun and put them in their place, and he was just a human.  An enlightened human but a human none the less who knew what was up. 

Will add that the mahayana schools tend to look at that stuff as alegory.  Something i've always admired about systems like Buddhism, it took some of the more outrageous stories of deity and made them into Jungian archtypes followed by standardization.

Edited by poptart

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4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

nd yet there is this expectation that in the next life our differences, which cause these conflicts, will go away.

I think where it is more personality conflicts as opposed to actually toxic/damaging behaviours, it is more we will understand the cause of those differences better in ourselves and others and will have learned how to communicate our differences without harm to each other.  So the conflict goes away rather than the differences.

As far as behaviour that harms, if a person isn't intentionally choosing evil, then that behaviour likely comes from wounds they have received and can be healed of by Christ.

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3 hours ago, poptart said:

Where's the accountability

In order to be fully forgiven, we must fully repent, which imo (and I believe LDS doctrine) means we must fully accept and admit our responsibility in harming others and be willing to do whatever is needed that we can do to restore what we took from our victims (innocence, peace of minds, health, ability to trust and love, as well as material possessions in this life though I don't think those matter much in the next one, etc).  However, we do not actually have the ability to heal others so restoring such things to others is impossible and thus only by accepting Christ as our Redeemer can we truly be accountable because he can heal others on our behalf.

The steps of repentance for Gospel doctrine (LDS) are often summarized as recognition, remorse, another r word I can't remember that means committing to never doing it again, and restitution.  Simply because we understand that in the end God is the one who will restore all to the victims does not mean we can leave that step all in his hands and never give the need for it in others another thought.  Instead we must do our upmost to restore what we can, including helping other victims of others when we cannot help the ones we hurt ourselves.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng

Quote

the idea of someone being Christlike right after living a rotten life

Saints don't generally see repentance in the afterlife as something instantaneous.  There has to be a change of heart to fully accept Christ and that likely is going to take time.  Other aspects of learning are said to be a part of an extended learning process (such as understanding the full significance of the endowment/temple ordinances).  Saints are encouraged to work on our progression all through our mortal life and not delay our repentance till the end not only because it helps make this life better for ourselves and others, but because it affects our experiences in the next life even if we don't fully understand how.

I don't believe God will wave his hand to alter our defects (not the same as differences), but suspect that the process of learning to change will be much like here on earth, at least in the beginning.  There will be attributes we must take on that are impossible for us in mortality (being one in heart and mind requires understanding others in ways we cannot, I assume something like telepathy will aid our ability to communicate), so the 'finishing school' might end up being drastically different than mortality, but who knows at this point.

Edited by Calm
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3 minutes ago, Calm said:

In order to be fully forgiven, we must fully repent, which imo (and I believe LDS doctrine) means we must fully accept and admit our responsibility in harming others and be willing to do whatever is needed that we can do to restore what we took from our victims (innocence, peace of minds, health, ability to trust and love, as well as material possessions in this life though I don't think those matter much in the next one, etc).  However, we do not actually have the ability to heal others so restoring such things to others is impossible and thus only by accepting Christ as our Redeemer can we truly be accountable because he can heal others on our behalf.

The steps of repentance for Gospel doctrine (LDS) are often summarized as recognition, remorse, another r word I can't remember that means committing to never doing it again, and restitution.  Simply because we understand that in the end God is the one who will restore all to the victims does not mean we can leave that step all in his hands and never give the need for it in others another thought.  Instead we must do our upmost to restore what we can, including helping other victims of others when we cannot help the ones we hurt ourselves.

https://www.lds.org/manual/gospel-principles/chapter-19-repentance?lang=eng

Sounds almost Catholic, hmm.

Funny, Catholicism always reminded me of the pure land sect of buddhism.  The Buddhist Churches of America is one of the biggest Buddhist organizations in the mainland, usually most towns that have Japanese cultural festivals are hosted by them.  Gist is you chant to Amida Buddha and when you die you're reborn in the Western Buddhist Pureland as a demi god and attain enlightenment there.  Basically, this world is too impure for a normal person to gain enlightenment so you take refuge in Amida Buddha and try to live a good life. 

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9 minutes ago, Calm said:

nother r word I can't remember that means committing to never doing it

resolve?? 

I've been reading a book about healthy and unhealthy brains and how brain damage affects behavior. I am amazed at all the ways the brain can be hurt and we not be aware. It seems behavior is not always tracible to moral attitudes , but to which chemicals are in excess or depletion in the brain. 

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48 minutes ago, pogi said:

The sin does go away as if by magic (thanks to the grace of Christ); 

I disagree with this if "by magic" you mean it is removed instanteously with no effort involved on our part because Christ did all the work.

I like the analogy in CS Lewis' Voyage of the Dawntreader.  I will have to go dig that up.

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1 minute ago, strappinglad said:

resolve?? 

I've been reading a book about healthy and unhealthy brains and how brain damage affects behavior. I am amazed at all the ways the brain can be hurt and we not be aware. It seems behavior is not always tracible to moral attitudes , but to which chemicals are in excess or depletion in the brain. 

Yes, resolve, thanks.  That was annoying not having that in place in my brain.  :)

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3 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

resolve?? 

I've been reading a book about healthy and unhealthy brains and how brain damage affects behavior. I am amazed at all the ways the brain can be hurt and we not be aware. It seems behavior is not always tracible to moral attitudes , but to which chemicals are in excess or depletion in the brain. 

Read up on teratogens, scary stuff.

2 minutes ago, Calm said:

I disagree with this if "by magic" you mean it is removed instanteously with no effort involved on our part because Christ did all the work.

I like the analogy in CS Lewis' Voyage of the Dawntreader.  I will have to go dig that up.

I remember going through catechism and hearing about the Eucharist and how it was a holy miracle.  No explination, more of a it's a miracle because Jesus said so, deal with it.  Watching the priest whip up the sacrament and the mystery it entailed always puzzled me, for a religon that hates sorcery seeing the priest, blinged out robes and all do his thing really reminded me of Merlin.  No offense to anyone, just my opinion as a blasphemous heathen.  A little explaining and logic would have gone a long way...

 

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31 minutes ago, Calm said:

I disagree with this if "by magic" you mean it is removed instanteously with no effort involved on our part because Christ did all the work.

I like the analogy in CS Lewis' Voyage of the Dawntreader.  I will have to go dig that up.

Got to get moving so this will have to do:

Eustace first tries to remove the skin himself...got to get that part later...

Quote

“Then the lion said – but I don’t know if it spoke –‘You will have to let me undress you.’I was afraid of his claws, I can tell you, but I was pretty nearly desperate now. So I just lay flat down on my back to let him do it.

“The very first tear he made was so deep that I thought it had gone right into my heart. And when he began pulling the skin off, it hurt worse than anything I’ve ever felt. The only thing that made me able to bear it was just the pleasure of feeling the stuff peel off. You know – if you’ve ever picked the scab of a sore place. It hurts like billy-oh but it is such fun to see it coming away.”

“I know exactly what you mean,” said Edmund.

“Well, he peeled the beastly stuff right off – just as I thought I’d done it myself the other three times, only they hadn’t hurt – and there it was lying on the grass: only ever so much thicker, and darker, and more knobbly-looking than the others had been. And there was I as smooth and soft as a peeled switch and smaller than I had been. Then he caught hold of me – I didn’t like that much for I was very tender underneath now that I’d no skin on – and threw me into the water. It smarted like anything but only for a moment. After that it became perfectly delicious and as soon as I started swimming and splashing I found that all the pain had gone from my arm. And then I saw why. I’d turned into a boy again.”

Anyway, my point is giving up sin and putting ourselves into Christ's hands is likely both the easiest and hardest thing we will ever have to do just as it may be the most painful and most pleasurable....because we are a mass of conflicts in mortality and need to rid ourselves of that which is bound so intimately in our soul as to be our 'skin' but which also taints our true immortal perfected selves that we so desire to become.

http://worldsthewoodworlds.blogspot.com/2011/12/eustaces-un-dragoning-part-3-letting.html

Edited by Calm

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39 minutes ago, Calm said:

I disagree with this if "by magic" you mean it is removed instanteously with no effort involved on our part because Christ did all the work.

I like the analogy in CS Lewis' Voyage of the Dawntreader.  I will have to go dig that up.

By "as if by magic" I mean that Christ takes our sin upon him - no doubt effort is required on our part.  But the way the atonement works is almost magical in the sense that it works but we don't have any comprehension as to how.   

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39 minutes ago, strappinglad said:

resolve?? 

I've been reading a book about healthy and unhealthy brains and how brain damage affects behavior. I am amazed at all the ways the brain can be hurt and we not be aware. It seems behavior is not always tracible to moral attitudes , but to which chemicals are in excess or depletion in the brain. 

This is why I don't believe one can fully accept or reject the Gospel in this life, but instead that part will come in the next life.  I know this doesn't completely match up with how the Gospel is taught in the Church, but my awareness of how the physical affects everyone as well as cultural environment, this is just what makes sense to me at this point.  I think while much of God's judgment can  based on what we do with what we have, we must also actually experience somethings ourselves in order to move forward and making a fully informed choice to embrace God is one of those things imo (and that is why there must be a Final Judgment...all other judgments being steps that move us towards that moment).  Thus for example, I think no one actually becomes a son of perdition until that moment in Final Judgment where they basically spit at God and turn away from him to embrace evil, though they certainly can prepare themselves to receive full damnation just as we prepare ourselves to receive exaltation.

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3 minutes ago, pogi said:

By "as if by magic" I mean that Christ takes our sin upon him - no doubt effort is required on our part.  But the way the atonement works is almost magical in the sense that it works but we don't have any comprehension as to how.   

Magic in the sense of wonder and mystery, I agree with that.

And some changes can occur 'overnight'.  I had friends who were smokers unable to give up their habit, but after having been given the missionary lessons and committed to baptism, they both said they never had another craving.  On the other hand, I also know very worthy people that after years and decades of committed service have not been able to lay aside their addiction, so what happens to whom in terms of Christ's healing in this life isn't predictable in many cases.

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dbl post

Edited by Anijen
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3 hours ago, poptart said:

I've been a big fan of karma.  Little things can be fixed but big things can not only ruin you, but also family and beyond.  With karma, it's all on you and no one else, you damn yourself to hell.  Trying sounds nice but in the end it's all on you. 

Karma = do something good you get good returned, do something bad, get something bad to you. Hindu's Karma is equivalent to Christians' golden rule.

 

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Edited by Anijen

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24 minutes ago, Anijen said:

Karma = do something good you get good returned, do something bad, get something bad to you. Hindu's Karma is equivalent to Christians' golden rule.

 

Nope, much more complicated than that.  Karma follows you everywhere, this life and the next.  Family and group karma is a thing too, besides the karma you naturally have you also inherit whatever karma your family has.  Causes and conditions equal affects, take me for example.  I have whatever karma I have plus that of family.  My father, brother and I think even their sister were hard core alcoholics and now we suspect drug users.  (it was the 60s...)  Father died from COPD last year, his brother who cheated them out of their inheritance is on the way out and the sister spent her life bouncing from facility to facility.  That took it's toll on me.  No one likes associating with a crazy person no matter how much they may go on about compassion.  In the end, we work out our karma.  In my case, I decided against children, at least here.  I have no idea what a stable family is, I can talk about it but deep down I have no idea how one functions.  Considering the values of people here stateside I'd be genuinly afraid of me snapping if I had to endure a fraction of the nonsense people here put up with and with the legal peril involved with most domestic partnerships I feel like I made the right choice.  All it takes is a false rape/abuse claim and there goes your gun rights, career and possibly your life, no thank you.  After having my father almost kill my mother, spend the rest of his life trying ruining me and in addition to taking out a restraining order and flee half way across the country to wait for him to die, yeah i'm opting out.  didn't help matters much that my plight fell on deaf ears.  That being said, i'm taking my karma in my own hands, once I pass away the karma associated with that disfunctional line will be burnt up and scattered with my ashes.  Anyway, like it or not that's my karma, my life condition.  Funny, the concept has existed in the west for quite some time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamingja

Also yes I agree, it's more or less the same in Hinduism and the Christians golden rule applies.  Karma is a really interesting thing to study, the Pali Canon is especially mindblowing.  One of my favorites, Lama Yeshe has always done a superb job of explaining this stuff to the west.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/karma-group-more-powerful

Edited by poptart

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10 minutes ago, poptart said:

Nope, much more complicated than that.  Karma follows you everywhere, this life and the next.  Family and group karma is a thing too, besides the karma you naturally have you also inherit whatever karma your family has.  Causes and conditions equal affects, take me for example.  I have whatever karma I have plus that of family.  My father, brother and I think even their sister were hard core alcoholics and now we suspect drug users.  (it was the 60s...)  Father died from COPD last year, his brother who cheated them out of their inheritance is on the way out and the sister spent her life bouncing from facility to facility.  That took it's toll on me.  No one likes associating with a crazy person no matter how much they may go on about compassion.  In the end, we work out our karma.  In my case, I decided against children, at least here.  I have no idea what a stable family is, I can talk about it but deep down I have no idea how one functions.  Considering the values of people here stateside I'd be genuinly afraid of me snapping if I had to endure a fraction of the nonsense people here put up with and with the legal peril involved with most domestic partnerships I feel like I made the right choice.  All it takes is a false rape/abuse claim and there goes your gun rights, career and possibly your life, no thank you.  After having my father almost kill my mother, spend the rest of his life trying ruining me and in addition to taking out a restraining order and flee half way across the country to wait for him to die, yeah i'm opting out.  didn't help matters much that my plight fell on deaf ears.  That being said, i'm taking my karma in my own hands, once I pass away the karma associated with that disfunctional line will be burnt up and scattered with my ashes.  Anyway, like it or not that's my karma, my life condition.  Funny, the concept has existed in the west for quite some time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamingja

Also yes I agree, it's more or less the same in Hinduism and the Christians golden rule applies.  Karma is a really interesting thing to study, the Pali Canon is especially mindblowing.  One of my favorites, Lama Yeshe has always done a superb job of explaining this stuff to the west.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/karma-group-more-powerful

I think this is likely the intended meaning of Numbers 14:18 (abuse leaves scars in families through the generations, God is not actually punishing children for others' sins, but the consequences of sin don't disappear.

Quote

The LORD is slow to anger, abounding in love and forgiving sin and rebellion. Yet he does not leave the guilty unpunished; he punishes the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation.'

 

Edited by Calm
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1 minute ago, Calm said:

I think this is likely the intended meaning of Numbers 14:18 (abuse leaves scars in families through the generations):

 

Yep, and here I am suffering because of it.  Guess supply side jesus must not like me.

 

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4 hours ago, CA Steve said:

Thanks Nehor, but I want to keep a lot of my flaws, even some of the ones that make my life more difficult.

I like the golf analogy here, so I am going to expand it a bit. My best friend and I play golf together frequently, and have so for years. He is left handed and I am right and we both have the same basic problem when it comes to hitting a driver. We draw the face of the club head across the ball so that it puts unwanted spin on it. In my case it makes the ball go right and in his case, since he is left handed, it goes left. We have an ongoing joke about our game that due to the way we hit the ball, even though we are playing together we rarely see each other until we eventually get on the green. And while we have improved over the years, it still happens often enough to make us laugh at each other off searching in the weeds for a ball and also make us feel good about our game when we both manage to stay on the fairway.

So let's compare that to your posting habits. You have people here who think you are the second coming of Jason from Halloween and others who on a consistent basis up vote your posts. Were you to tone down your posting style in any significant way, you wouldn't be The Nehor anymore. Maybe that's a good thing (Jason, I am sure is tired of the competition). Maybe that's a bad thing as I am sure there are some here who would be disappointed, I mean how boring would heaven be if The Nehor wasn't around to spread his unique brand of cheer?

The gods play much more interesting games then golf but that joy will survive. I will no longer post like this but the impish quality that some love will survive somehow.

Part of this is faith and the transformation. We have to turn our personality itself over to God and He calls it and resurrects it. If you seek to save your life you will lose it. But if you lose it for my sake you will find it. We have to be willing to be changed and then the things that make us us will be reborn in a higher and more joyous form. It is like when a recent convert asked me if there is sex in heaven. I responded that I did not know but that if there is not, it is because there is something much better.

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20 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

. It is like when a recent convert asked me if there is sex in heaven. I responded that I did not know but that if there is not, it is because there is something much better.

That reminds me of a line from an old movie call Cocoon where the hero, an earthman, falls in love with a beautiful alien and they eventually do what couples do.

As they begin to  embrace, a bright white light shines onout from the two and the earthly hero can be heard saying "If this is foreplay, I am a dead man."

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On 12/26/2018 at 10:16 PM, Jane_Doe said:

In eternal Celestial glory, you will no longer be the mortal you currently are, with the long list of faults you currently have.  You're going to be a completely re-born person with a goodly character like unto Christ Himself.

Same with every other person in God's family.  So, your aunt will no longer be this desperately needing therapy person, rather a Celestial person like unto Christ Himself.  Which fo me, is a huge assurance, because I have family members that aren't remotely like Christ today.  

My thoughts exactly, but I couldn’t have expressed them better. Bravo! 

Brigham Young said that in the celestial glory one need have no fear that the wife will be dissatisfied with the husband or the husband with the wife. Those who attain a celestial state will be “as beautiful as the angels that surround the throne of God,” said he. I believe that will be beauty in every respect. 

Edited by Scott Lloyd

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The first question would be if she is generally a good person in other ways past her toxicity; I've known many people that are pretty decent past the way they treat people sometimes.

Why this is important leads us to Gospel Principles;

Quote

 

The spirits of those who are righteous are received into a state of happiness, which is called paradise, a state of rest, a state of peace, where they shall rest from all their troubles and from all care, and sorrow.

 

Most people that I have ever found to be toxic, do so as a defense mechanism to things that have happened to them in their past. The righteous are at rest from their troubles, which should mean her soul may be healed (and even understand why she acted that way) to the point where you may not even recognize her attitude.

Also, for you to see her in Paradise or the Celestial Kingdom, you have to forgive her anyway. 

I don't say that lightly, I've had to forgive loved ones myself knowing how they screwed me up. Isn't an easy process, but healing happens when you put effort into understanding.

BTW, I would say now would be a better time to learn forgiveness than waiting for the Celestial Kingdom. Like I said, not going to be easy. You are going to have to shelf some heavy items. Just go at it a little at a time.

Edited by thatjimguy
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17 hours ago, poptart said:

Nope, much more complicated than that.  Karma follows you everywhere, this life and the next.  Family and group karma is a thing too, besides the karma you naturally have you also inherit whatever karma your family has.  Causes and conditions equal affects, take me for example.  I have whatever karma I have plus that of family.  My father, brother and I think even their sister were hard core alcoholics and now we suspect drug users.  (it was the 60s...)  Father died from COPD last year, his brother who cheated them out of their inheritance is on the way out and the sister spent her life bouncing from facility to facility.  That took it's toll on me.  No one likes associating with a crazy person no matter how much they may go on about compassion.  In the end, we work out our karma.  In my case, I decided against children, at least here.  I have no idea what a stable family is, I can talk about it but deep down I have no idea how one functions.  Considering the values of people here stateside I'd be genuinly afraid of me snapping if I had to endure a fraction of the nonsense people here put up with and with the legal peril involved with most domestic partnerships I feel like I made the right choice.  All it takes is a false rape/abuse claim and there goes your gun rights, career and possibly your life, no thank you.  After having my father almost kill my mother, spend the rest of his life trying ruining me and in addition to taking out a restraining order and flee half way across the country to wait for him to die, yeah i'm opting out.  didn't help matters much that my plight fell on deaf ears.  That being said, i'm taking my karma in my own hands, once I pass away the karma associated with that disfunctional line will be burnt up and scattered with my ashes.  Anyway, like it or not that's my karma, my life condition.  Funny, the concept has existed in the west for quite some time too.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamingja

Also yes I agree, it's more or less the same in Hinduism and the Christians golden rule applies.  Karma is a really interesting thing to study, the Pali Canon is especially mindblowing.  One of my favorites, Lama Yeshe has always done a superb job of explaining this stuff to the west.

https://www.lamayeshe.com/advice/karma-group-more-powerful

:good::clapping:

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On 12/26/2018 at 7:27 PM, Duncan said:

Let's be honest, my Aunt is a toxic person. I won't get into it but she needs therapy like there's no tomorrow. Dad has told Mumsie 'i've dealt with your ratchety sister since 1965, i'm due for a break!'. But Some of us were talking about sealings, my dad is sealed to my Mum but does that mean both of them, or us,  have to "deal with" the sister? like, She is a genuine pain in the oonka toonka for the time she comes for Christmas holidays, I couldn't imagine a day to day thing. How much interaction do you have with these relatives that you wouldn't minded just blending into the background ? Are sealings like you are trapped with these people forever?

Going through the 12 Step program and making an honest moral inventory of myself and a comprehensive list of all those I have offended in my lifetime opened my heart to my need of a Savior...and increased my hope for grace and forgiveness for myself.

Since I am unable to make amends with everyone on my list in this life, I imagine a line of people in heaven and our conversations that go something like this... “Oh, please forgive me.” “I am so sorry for that time I.....” “So very sorry.” “Oh, I had forgotten about you....” “Can you forgive me now?” “You, too!!??”

And I used to think I was a fairly nice guy, but I am now willing to pass along that line.

Edited by Bernard Gui
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