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7 minutes ago, Thinking said:

My son was hit by another driver a few years ago and it was determined that the other driver was at fault. The other driver's insurance company never wrote us a check. We took the car to an approved repair shop and got an estimate. After the work was approved, the shop did the repairs and the insurance company paid the shop directly. We would only have received a check if the car was totaled (repair cost > car value). I wonder if different insurance companies have different policies.

I think that must be the case.  Just like some companies have "crash forgiveness" and some don't.

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12 hours ago, Stargazer said:

I think that must be the case.  Just like some companies have "crash forgiveness" and some don't.

We had hail damage that would have cause a significant drop in selling the car (tons of divets but they weren't deep enough to crack the paint and cause rust, so it was a cosmetic issue) but did not decrease its quality of ride in any way. The bumps made it more interesting in appearance, dappled if the light hit it right.  Since we intended just to drive it into the ground, we decided to put the money in savings instead. Though we eventually did sell it and were then penalized for not having fixed it, but it was old enough it probably didn't make much difference. 

 The insurance people talked about it as simply restoring the lost value of the car to us, not restoring the car itself.  They didn't care what we did with the money.

Edited by Calm

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On 1/1/2019 at 2:44 PM, Alan said:

At best it was very foolish. But I think it is technically fraud.

The insurance company paid out in order to make the policyholder whole. If the car remains damaged, and therefore of reduced value, he is not whole.

 

He is indeed whole in that the value he lost as a consequence of the accident has been restored to him in the form of a cash payment. He may use that monetary value however he wishes. It does not have to be used to repair the car.

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7 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

He is indeed whole in that the value he lost as a consequence of the accident has been restored to him in the form of a cash payment. He may use that monetary value however he wishes. It does not have to be used to repair the car.

It happened to me, I got caught in the big hail storm driving home from work. Our insurance paid out a sum, but I still drive with the hail damage and deposited the check to put toward another vehicle in the future. I didn't see how all those hail dents could be fixed properly anyway. I don't feel a bit bad about not getting it fixed. But it's a 2007, so really not that new. 

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20 hours ago, Thinking said:

My son was hit by another driver a few years ago and it was determined that the other driver was at fault. The other driver's insurance company never wrote us a check. We took the car to an approved repair shop and got an estimate. After the work was approved, the shop did the repairs and the insurance company paid the shop directly. We would only have received a check if the car was totaled (repair cost > car value). I wonder if different insurance companies have different policies.

You have the option to do have the shop paid directly or receive the funds.

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1 hour ago, ttribe said:

You have the option to do have the shop paid directly or receive the funds.

Does that depend on the insurance company, because we were never given the option to just receive the funds?

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9 hours ago, Thinking said:

Does that depend on the insurance company, because we were never given the option to just receive the funds?

It might depend on whether you own the car completely or if you are still making payments. I'm not sure you get the cash option if you are making payments because the bank is invested in the value of the car.

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On 1/4/2019 at 2:31 PM, Calm said:

We had hail damage that would have cause a significant drop in selling the car (tons of divets but they weren't deep enough to crack the paint and cause rust, so it was a cosmetic issue) but did not decrease its quality of ride in any way. The bumps made it more interesting in appearance, dappled if the light hit it right.  Since we intended just to drive it into the ground, we decided to put the money in savings instead. Though we eventually did sell it and were then penalized for not having fixed it, but it was old enough it probably didn't make much difference. 

 The insurance people talked about it as simply restoring the lost value of the car to us, not restoring the car itself.  They didn't care what we did with the money.

When I was unemployed my car was battered by hail and I got a $6000 check for cosmetic damage. Kept me afloat.  Considered it the blessings of the Lord literally raining down on me. ;) 

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11 hours ago, Thinking said:

Does that depend on the insurance company, because we were never given the option to just receive the funds?

What's more likely is you got an adjuster that didn't want to tell you all of your options. 

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Me: Why does the church expect so much from it's members? They give of their time, talents and money. They clean the church buildings, even the toilets! And the tithing money is mostly funneled to church headquarters. Why isn't there more in the budget, and why do members have to spend their own money for their callings? Does this make anyone else just a little upset? I know I no longer pay it, but when I did and when I was a RS secretary I spent my own mony to make copies for newsletters because our copy machine wasn't working well, and when I was in Primary, I spent my own money for extras. Below are comments from Wheat and Tares and one from another site.:( 
 

My current calling is Stake Financial Auditor. There are four of us in the stake, and twice a year we visit each ward (we each do two wards) and sit with the bishop and ward financial clerk and review the books. The church is very close hold on its financial dealings and it is also very careful on how the money is handled, and how it is spent.

While there is nothing secret or sacred about what I do as an auditor, unless you have been a financial clerk or in a bishopric, you probably have no idea what an audit involves, or even that they occurred.

Every ward/branch/mission in the church is audited twice a year, in January and July. During the audit, I ask questions of the clerk and Bishop to make sure that the donation envelops are always opened in the presents of two people, one of which has to be a member of the bishopric. Also I make sure two people always take the money to a 24 hr drop box on Sunday after it is counted.

More detailed is the selection of 18 expenditures from the previous six months, which I then verify that each check has two signatures on it, the Bishop signed the form approving the expense, and finally, that there is a receipt.

Each exception is noted, and a corrective action is taken. The most common exception is the lack of a receipt. The most common missing receipt is when a Bishop uses fast offerings to help somebody pay the rent/mortgage. The check is never written to the person receiving assistance (another item I check) but is written to the landlord. But once that check is delivered, the person must get a receipt and return it to the bishop. This was a perennial problem when I was bishop, and is the same today for every ward I audit.

Lastly, I check one deposit from each month, making sure the names from each donation slip match the printout, and that the amounts match also. This assures that everybody gets credit for their donation.

While I have no worldly training to be a financial auditor, being a Bishop for five years and being a detailed oriented engineer, along with training from the Stake seems to be all I need for this calling.

Does knowing the church does very detailed audits of each ward twice a year make you feel better about the churches fiances, or do you still want to know where the money came from that paid for the mall?

 
Damascene

For a religious population that is known for its high rate of tithing members, very little of those funds are used on the local level. Local clergy are not paid. There is no ward or stake office with a paid secretary. There is one lousy copier in each building and it is locked up tight. There is no paid nursery. There is no custodian. Energy bills are not high as the HVAC systems are not on 24/7. There is a church exemption from local taxes.

All ward organizations are on extremely tight budgets. Basic necessary expenditures to run an auxiliary are often subsidized by individuals in the ward.

On a local level, members can receive financial aid when needed, but those funds come out of fast offerings not tithing. Extra fast offerings do not stay local. Those get sent to SLC and are never seen again. The LDS church does not commit to funding of local community service organizations. The only assistance the church offers is the free labor of members.

Money flows to the central church. It does not flow back.

The central church is extremely careful to keep each individual unit financially accountable. Who keeps the central church accountable? The easy answer is God. But if God isn’t enough to keep local units accountable why would that be any different at a higher level?

The church talks about their amazing Church Storehouse and all the production of food that they are capable of. Having worked around one of those basic entities of production while in college, I was surprised to realize that while some small portion of the production went to the storehouse with storehouse labeling, the bulk of production was labeled for commercial sales.

There is no local position within the church that focuses on finding local needs and addressing them with food or financial resources of the LDS church. The only consistent offers from the church is free labor. The church is constantly setting up ways for local members to give more, volunteer more, help more. The church does nothing but assign one volunteer to go assign more volunteers to work. Whether through the ward, stake or Just Serve, free labor is the only reliable commodity offered.

The LDS church has recently purchased a number of high dollar investment properties in my local area.. $300 million for one. $650 million for another. $200 million for a third.

Yes, I do want to see some hard numbers. For a church that expects members to be fully devout and loyal, very little is given back. There is ZERO accountability.

Greggggg

I’ve spent a lot of years as a ward clerk and I agree that the spending at the ward level is well operated and I have never seen any abuse whatsoever. My current ward is in an affluent area and we collect $600K + in annual tithing. Our ward budget is $10-11K. I have no concerns ith what’s spent at the local ward level. The problem is this represents less than 2% of the tithing paid. I have major concerns about the other 98%.

**************************************************************************************************************************

As relief society president, years back, I was very troubled that we were given about $1,000 for the year for approximately 80 women. Over 12 months it worked out to about $2 a woman per activity. I contributed my own funds as well as the other counselors and teachers. Then I found out about the 2 billion in stock holdings alone. Tithing supports a corporation getting richer. A piddling is returned to the wards in the form of budgets and money spent on charitable purposes is laughable. Why? Member volunteer hours and donations make up the total amounts paraded before the public . The actual monetary amount given from church coffers is pennies given their total wealth which is only guessed at because the LDS church REFUSES to even tell its own members what they are worth. It's sickening. The LDS church is the modern version of money changers in the temple.

 

Edited by Tacenda

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Tac, Did you ever submit the receipts to be reimbursed and you were refused?  I have heard of many members paying for things themselves by choice  I was scolded by my leaders when I chose to do that.  I still went ahead and did it. 

Edited by Calm

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25 minutes ago, Calm said:

Tac, Did you ever submit the receipts to be reimbursed and you were refused?  I have heard of many members paying for things themselves by choice  I was scolded by my leaders when I chose to do that.  I still went ahead and did it. 

Well, I was told to use the Stake one on Saturdays and then that option was taken away when they said go back to using the library one on Sundays, and I had way too many copies to monopolize the one copier and I gave up after that. So probably I should have. But knew the RS budget was sparse because I had to make an accounting. And receipts went through me. 

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I was told budgets were in part determined by requests and usage (don’t use it, lose it; request more and it might go up), so not explaining the need might have resulted in why it was so sparse. Also, there may have been the option to have the ward librarian submit the receipt since you were using a different copier because of the limits of the library. As bulletin person, I was told that was an option. It saved wear and tear and time.

But the point is complaining about members having to subsidize when often they just don’t bother to submit receipts seems to be poorly thought out.

The other issue is whether what is desired is necessary or simply something that would be nice. I know in the past I have rolled my eyes at some of the gifts the RS has handed out given in most cases it ends up in the garbage or the DI stack after I have read the note. And I feel guilty about it, but I don’t need another ornament or a cd of music I don’t listen to. A nice note is more than enough, add a cookie if a treat is felt necessary. 

Edited by Calm
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26 minutes ago, Calm said:

I was told budgets were in part determined by requests and usage (don’t use it, lose it; request more and it might go up), so not explaining the need might have resulted in why it was so sparse. Also, there may have been the option to have the ward librarian submit the receipt since you were using a different copier because of the limits of the library. As bulletin person, I was told that was an option. It saved wear and tear and time.

But the point is complaining about members having to subsidize when often they just don’t bother to submit receipts seems to be poorly thought out.

The other issue is whether what is desired is necessary or simply something that would be nice. I know in the past I have rolled my eyes at some of the gifts the RS has handed out given in most cases it ends up in the garbage or the DI stack after I have read the note. And I feel guilty about it, but I don’t need another ornament or a cd of music I don’t listen to. A nice note is more than enough, add a cookie if a treat is felt necessary. 

No we waited with baited breath each year in hopes of a larger budget. We didn't not ask for more beforehand I'm pretty sure. Recently my good friend's ward RS social/birthday party, can't remember, had to make others bring lasagne paid with their own money because they didn't have enough in the budget. 

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9 minutes ago, Tacenda said:

We didn't not ask for more beforehand I'm pretty sure

Why would you assume you would get a larger one if you didn't ask?  If I was the bishop, I would assume the people called to lead an organization would have the best info on what was needed and if they didn't ask, I would assume they didn't need it.

Quote

Recently my good friend's ward RS social/birthday party, can't remember, had to make others bring lasagne paid with their own money because they didn't have enough in the budget. 

Did they ask the Bishop for more or just figured it wouldn't be a big deal?  I know a lot of leaders in better off areas just assume members are okay with helping out on dinners.  Most ward dinners in my experience pay for meat out of budget and everything else is provided by pot luck.

Edited by Calm

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Each ward is different.  According to my father who is the state auditor no one is supposed to come out of pocket.  That’s a no no.  We are taught to operate from within the budget. ***I do NOT  have a reference to cite.  If my statement sounds incorrect to you, disregard.****

Sonetimes that means we might have to scale way back. 

As a young women’s leader, that is extremely challenging. Sometimes I do break the rules.  Last week I bought supplies for a craft because I simply didn’t allocate time to get creative and come up with something engaging other than the idea I had. 

Which broke another rule.  We are supposed to have the girls plan three months in advance so we are well prepared.  We did that, but guess what?

Life is messy.  Rules get broken. 

I save my receipts and write it off for taxes. 

For what it’s worth, as a life time member, I have found there is very little need to spend on adults at church.  Handouts, tablecloths, centerpieces, gifts, etc ***in my opinion*** are not worth the expense and certainly are not expected from me and thus when I teach it’s no frills.  

I miss RS.  There are a lot more frills expected to keep youth engaged.  I love those kids though❤️

 

Edited by MustardSeed
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23 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

ccording to my father who is the state auditor no one is supposed to come out of pocket

And this is what I have been told by a few bishops.  They practically begged me to be sure and turn in my receipts.  I pretty much ignored them.  So did every other leader I know who can afford it.  They think it is a waste of their time and like the idea they are contributing.

I agree with your descriptions.  It seems to me the vast majority of time people balance time needed to invest to follow the rules to just paying for it to be easier or because they want it to be special.  Because I was teaching Primary lessons for 20 plus years, towards the end it was getting boring for me and I added visual aids that I made forcme to enjoy.  There was no need for them, I had taught the lessons for decades with using library materials (junior primary loved using the out of date filmstrips as they could be the ones turning the knobs and the old flannel board stories were always a hit; it was quite sad to me when I switched to ward librarian that no one checked either of those out or very much of anything besides crayons and the coloring pages).

YMs and YWs are the ones that likely need the frills most.  I never was in that leadership so only got reports of inlaws and friends about the costs.  Stake camp could be a huge deal because previous leaders didn't think ahead to build up and save resources, so at times they were scrambling to get supplies because they assumed they would be there, but weren't.  One inlaw made a manual to pass on as well as revamping the whole stake setup.

One of the first things I ever did as a new leader was take inventory after reading all the manuals or guidelines attached.  I generally reduced most inherited materials down to one box or notebook (people love to save handouts and advertising posters for some reason) and another box or two of reusable stuff.  If you don't know what is there, you can't reuse it.  I found many teachers rarely checked out available resources...no matter how much training I put in to getting them familiar with it.  Now it doesn't bug me, we are a lay organization and people have only so much mental energy and time to invest in many, many needs...as long as there is little complaining about lack of support.

I suspect many bishops could do much better at communicating with their leaders about budgets, but lots of leaders can't be bothered or for some other reason just don't want to have to ask in my experience.  I look on it as pretty much the same thing as getting a raise....you can sit around and wait for your boss to see your merits or assume responsibility for your own life and discuss it with your boss, explore options with them, find out what you need to do to get more.  If instead you sit around and complain about not being given what you are worth...how adult is that actually?

Edited by Calm

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2 minutes ago, Calm said:

how adult is that actually?

There might be another less alienating way to refer to Tacendas point of view but yeah there are ways to get needs met up in here. 

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17 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

 

There might be another less alienating way to refer to Tacendas point of view but yeah there are ways to get needs met up in here. 

Repetition tends to up my edge.  I have an enduring, likely unrealistic belief that if people actually listen, they will understand.  Sometimes my efforts in hoping they will listen causes me to increase volume.

Part of me realizes it likely just shuts listening off, but frustration often wins out over wisdom.

Edited by Calm

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We are all just on a journey and need each other along the way. ❤️

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58 minutes ago, MustardSeed said:

Each ward is different.  According to my father who is the state auditor no one is supposed to come out of pocket.  That’s a no no.  We are taught to operate from within the budget. ***I do NOT  have a reference to cite.  If my statement sounds incorrect to you, disregard.****

Sonetimes that means we might have to scale way back. 

As a young women’s leader, that is extremely challenging. Sometimes I do break the rules.  Last week I bought supplies for a craft because I simply didn’t allocate time to get creative and come up with something engaging other than the idea I had. 

Which broke another rule.  We are supposed to have the girls plan three months in advance so we are well prepared.  We did that, but guess what?

Life is messy.  Rules get broken. 

I save my receipts and write it off for taxes. 

For what it’s worth, as a life time member, I have found there is very little need to spend on adults at church.  Handouts, tablecloths, centerpieces, gifts, etc ***in my opinion*** are not worth the expense and certainly are not expected from me and thus when I teach it’s no frills.  

I miss RS.  There are a lot more frills expected to keep youth engaged.  I love those kids though❤️

 

From Handbook 2, 13.2.8

“Stake and ward budget funds should be used to pay for all activities, programs, and supplies. Members should not pay fees to participate. Nor should they provide materials, supplies, rental or admission fees, or long-distance transportation at their own expense. Activities in which members provide food may be held if doing so does not place undue burdens on them.”

The section does go on to lost some exceptions, namely scout and girls camps, for which members may be asked to pay out of pocket.

 

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On 12/15/2018 at 7:29 PM, rpn said:

If one thinks of it as having to give my money to the church, then it can be quite difficult.

But it really isn't about money (and it surely isn't about paying for blessings or temple access as church critics like to allege).   It is about sacrificial bonding to our Savior by returning to Him 10% of everything He has given us.

so... what would the bishop think of someone who donates 10% - but not to the church, to other charitable organizations of their choice?

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5 minutes ago, changed said:

so... what would the bishop think of someone who donates 10% - but not to the church, to other charitable organizations of their choice?

I imagine the Bishop would think, here's a charitable person. 

And would not sign a temple recommend.  

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That isn't tithing, and it is definitive proof that the member also doesn't understand tithing, or the value of the sacrificial bonding.    Members who do do NOT think of the money as their's at all.   (Of course in this case God may accept the offering if it is the personal best at the point a member did this: He's the only one who knows the person's heart and capabilities.)

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