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(Now Former) Bishop in Draper Charged with Sex Offenses

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21 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

CFR

For the sake of argument, I will rescind my assertion/assumption that this bishop may have had predatory thoughts or inclinations prior to getting this assignment (even though this would fly in the face of most sociological study that indicates predators have thoughts/fantasies/inclinations of a predatory nature long before they carry out their initial criminal activity).

Putting aside prior inclinations toward this behavior, is the Holy Ghost omniscient, as God is supposed to be? If God is omniscient, he knows all that has happened and all that will ever happen, he has knowledge of everything. He knows now what decisions I will make 10 years from now (unless you believe God can be surprised, which means that he is not omniscient). Does the Holy Ghost have this same power of discernment? Did the Holy Ghost confirm among the leadership that this particular man was the best candidate to be a bishop? Was the Holy Ghost thus surprised too that this man turned out to be a predator? And if the Holy Ghost could not discern such things, why not just put some names in a hat and have a drawing to determine the next bishop; what is the point of praying, fasting, contemplating, etc. about such appointments if the holy Ghost is not going to steer the leadership in the proper direction?

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It's not only the LDS Church and the Roman Catholics who are coping with sexual abuse scandals. The Fundamental Baptists have just been confronted with hundreds of similar allegations:

https://www.star-telegram.com/living/religion/article222576310.html

These kinds of reports are frequently leveraged by certain agents of change argue for greater collaboration between leaders and congregants,  as well as calling for enlarged roles for women. 

Those who prefer to maintain the status quo,  by contrast,  look for ways to increase oversight of higher leadership over more local leaders. Also they usually hope to find better ways to vet local leaders for holiness, chastity, and virtue. 

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On 12/18/2018 at 5:36 PM, The Nehor said:

Yeah, God does know all and can see the end from the beginning and knows what will go wrong but I am convinced that he does not preemptively punish people or restrict their access to blessings based on what they will do. But no, the Holy Ghost was not surprised by what happened.

I can’t believe I keep reading eloquent defenses of this dude’s divine call. If god didn’t want to restrict his blessings, he still shouldn’t have offered childrens’ well-beings as collateral damage. Just bless him with his own house on top of Noyouth mountain, and make him bishop of the secluded mountaintop ward or something. 

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God appears to play by a set of rules that precludes denying blessings and responsibilities we are worthy of even if it is sin.

Upon what, then are they predicated?

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The problem I have is that this unnecessarily restricts God’s responsibility. God is responsible for everything and he has the power to prevent every ill in this life and does not. Calling a bishop who is currently faithful but will grope a member of the Youth in his ward is little different to me then sending a child to be born in the home of an abuser. Both are God allowing one of his children to be violated. 

Have you ever worked with people who were abused by adults? It is devastating, and a sizable portion go on to becom abusers  

There is no agency vacuum in which god can give a bishop access to a well-stocked barrel full of victim fish, but where those victims aren’t affected exponentially. 

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The horrible and disgusting truth is that for some these experiences are somehow necessary. I hate that I have to accept that. The only consolation I have is that the Savior endured every rape, violation, and abuse that any of us have suffered and somehow through that experience acquired the power to heal every victim and he will at some point.

Didn’t he choose to do so? Isn’t that agency? He’s not a victim, hes self-sacrificing. Isn’t that, like, really different? 

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22 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I can’t believe I keep reading eloquent defenses of this dude’s divine call. If god didn’t want to restrict his blessings, he still shouldn’t have offered childrens’ well-beings as collateral damage. Just bless him with his own house on top of Noyouth mountain, and make him bishop of the secluded mountaintop ward or something. 

God seems to disagree with your approach....assuming that ward exists of course.

23 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Upon what, then are they predicated?

I have been trying to figure out the rules my whole life.

24 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Have you ever worked with people who were abused by adults? It is devastating, and a sizable portion go on to becom abusers  

I have. I work in the family court system as a volunteer CASA worker for foster children and see the cycle of abuse playing out all the time. It is horrific. If you somehow got the idea that I was minimizing the effects of abuse please understand that I meant to communicate no such thing.

26 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

There is no agency vacuum in which god can give a bishop access to a well-stocked barrel full of victim fish, but where those victims aren’t affected exponentially. 

 

I doubt such a vacuum exists. There are times I would prefer a more controlled and interventionary mortal probation but God (and we) chose otherwise.

28 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Didn’t he choose to do so? Isn’t that agency? He’s not a victim, hes self-sacrificing. Isn’t that, like, really different? 

Sort of but his situation was unique. He was also the victim of every sin and ramification of this fallen world. This is the reason he can forgive sins that were offenses against someone else and that when he says that if you have done it unto the least of humanity you did it to him. Every day we abuse, ignore, help, love, despise, bless, and hate the Savior in everyone around us. We lighten or make heavier his burden all the time. But yes, he could have refused to do what he did but then we (and if I read the scriptures right he also) would have been lost. So in this specific case I do not believe it was that different.

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1 hour ago, The Nehor said:

God seems to disagree with your approach....assuming that ward exists of course.

We disagree on quite a bit, it seems.

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I have. I work in the family court system as a volunteer CASA worker for foster children and see the cycle of abuse playing out all the time. It is horrific. If you somehow got the idea that I was minimizing the effects of abuse please understand that I meant to communicate no such thing.

I’ll admit, I still catch whiffs of minimalizing, but I don’t have your perspective on theodicy, so I’ll take you at your word. 

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I doubt such a vacuum exists. There are times I would prefer a more controlled and interventionary mortal probation but God (and we) chose otherwise.

But he is interventionary, isn’t he? Otherwise, why pray, etc.? 

What’s more, to me, the idea that god commanded Nephi to slay Laban but wouldn’t prompt a stake president away from calling a child predator as bishop is irreconcilable.

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Sort of but his situation was unique. He was also the victim of every sin and ramification of this fallen world. This is the reason he can forgive sins that were offenses against someone else and that when he says that if you have done it unto the least of humanity you did it to him. Every day we abuse, ignore, help, love, despise, bless, and hate the Savior in everyone around us. We lighten or make heavier his burden all the time. But yes, he could have refused to do what he did but then we (and if I read the scriptures right he also) would have been lost. So in this specific case I do not believe it was that different.

Agree to disagree on this one.

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24 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

We disagree on quite a bit, it seems.

I’ll admit, I still catch whiffs of minimalizing, but I don’t have your perspective on theodicy, so I’ll take you at your word. 

But he is interventionary, isn’t he? Otherwise, why pray, etc.? 

What’s more, to me, the idea that god commanded Nephi to slay Laban but wouldn’t prompt a stake president away from calling a child predator as bishop is irreconcilable.

Agree to disagree on this one.

I do not consider the belief that Christ will eventually heal the scars of abuse as minimalizing if that is what you mean. If I minimalized in some other way I did not intend to.

God does intervene but God seems to intervene under a set of rules that I have not figured out and are probably beyond mortal comprehension in any case.

I do find the two situations reconciliable because each situation is unique in ways known only to God. While God can be relied on to lead us to eternal life there is rarely a guarantee of a specific temporal outcome from following a formula and if two people led nearly identical lives of righteousness one might face Herculean challenges and the other less so.

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5 hours ago, The Nehor said:

I do not consider the belief that Christ will eventually heal the scars of abuse as minimalizing if that is what you mean. If I minimalized in some other way I did not intend to.

Maybe I just hold grudges too easily, but if I found out almost my entire life on earth was made a living hell so that god could let a guy he knew was a child molester get a fair chance at being bishop, I wouldn’t care what kind of benefits package came from enduring something so horrific just so a guy could get to be bishop despite god knowing this monstrous detail about him beforehand but wanting to test if this child molester would choose the right and not molest the children in his ward, as is the only known way to keep from infringing your creation’s agency.

All this was done, and forgive me for repeating here, even though god knew ahead of time that this person was a child molester. That was his weakness. That was his big temptation. Destroying children (you know, the smiling little people crowded around him and sitting on his knee in all the pictures?). That was the thorn in his side. God knew that.

Now, nobody likes a snitch, but couldn’t god have told someone about this? Or, like, if , say, a stake president had prayed about this specific person, asking for promptings about just this type of thing. He could answer that prayer, like he answers everyone’s prayers to nurishandstrengthenourbodies or to get into BYU or whatever other crucial request is made.

So, yeah, perspectives. 

 

Edited by FunOnlineMan
Just to point out that that first block is one long sentence, and I don’t care. I’m not in school anymore, and I can do what I want.
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2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Maybe I just hold grudges too easily, but if I found out almost my entire life on earth was made a living hell so that god could let a guy he knew was a child molester get a fair chance at being bishop, I wouldn’t care what kind of benefits package came from enduring something so horrific just so a guy could get to be bishop despite god knowing this monstrous detail about him beforehand but wanting to test if this child molester would choose the right and not molest the children in his ward, as is the only known way to keep from infringing your creation’s agency.

All this was done, and forgive me for repeating here, even though god knew ahead of time that this person was a child molester. That was his weakness. That was his big temptation. Destroying children (you know, the smiling little people crowded around him and sitting on his knee in all the pictures?). That was the thorn in his side. God knew that.

Now, nobody likes a snitch, but couldn’t god have told someone about this? Or, like, if , say, a stake president had prayed about this specific person, asking for promptings about just this type of thing. He could answer that prayer, like he answers everyone’s prayers to nurishandstrengthenourbodies or to get into BYU or whatever other crucial request is made.

So, yeah, perspectives. 

 

I agree, I cannot imagine a supremely loving god prompting or providing confirmation to his leaders to appoint a man to this position when god knows that this man will use this position of authority to abuse children in such a devastating manner.

If this is the outcome of praying, fasting and pondering by stake leadership, you are just as well off putting the names in a hat and pulling them out randomly to select ward leaders.

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4 minutes ago, Walden said:

I agree, I cannot imagine a supremely loving god prompting or providing confirmation to his leaders to appoint a man to this position when god knows that this man will use this position of authority to abuse children in such a devastating manner.

If this is the outcome of praying, fasting and pondering by stake leadership, you are just as well off putting the names in a hat and pulling them out randomly to select ward leaders.

Well, divine messages from the insides of hats is a documented phenomenon on this very site, so there!

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2 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Maybe I just hold grudges too easily, but if I found out almost my entire life on earth was made a living hell so that god could let a guy he knew was a child molester get a fair chance at being bishop, I wouldn’t care what kind of benefits package came from enduring something so horrific just so a guy could get to be bishop despite god knowing this monstrous detail about him beforehand but wanting to test if this child molester would choose the right and not molest the children in his ward, as is the only known way to keep from infringing your creation’s agency.

All this was done, and forgive me for repeating here, even though god knew ahead of time that this person was a child molester. That was his weakness. That was his big temptation. Destroying children (you know, the smiling little people crowded around him and sitting on his knee in all the pictures?). That was the thorn in his side. God knew that.

Now, nobody likes a snitch, but couldn’t god have told someone about this? Or, like, if , say, a stake president had prayed about this specific person, asking for promptings about just this type of thing. He could answer that prayer, like he answers everyone’s prayers to nurishandstrengthenourbodies or to get into BYU or whatever other crucial request is made.

So, yeah, perspectives. 

I would prefer to live in your world where God intervened. I do not. In the Book of Mormon we have the story of Alma and Amulek being forced to watch as people and children they love get thrown into the flames probably including Amulek's wife and children. When asked why they could not intervene Alma says it is needed. I do not imagine Alma or Amulek were happy with the restrictions of mortality at that point.

By the way you should ask God to explain himself. That is what I did when I realized what horrific things God allowed. Get your answer there. I am not going to have a theodicy that satisfies you. I have one that usually satisfies me but it is unfortunately not transferable.

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9 hours ago, The Nehor said:

God does intervene but God seems to intervene under a set of rules that I have not figured out and are probably beyond mortal comprehension in any case.

Perhaps it's just random variation. You won't find any set rules other than any large organization will have a few idiots.

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45 minutes ago, Thinking said:

Perhaps it's just random variation. You won't find any set rules other than any large organization will have a few idiots.

I am not sure that is a set rule. I have seen large organizations that are majority idiots. I even joined one for a time where I could not find any idiots......which probably means I was the idiot.

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6 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Maybe I just hold grudges too easily, but if I found out almost my entire life on earth was made a living hell so that god could let a guy he knew was a child molester get a fair chance at being bishop, I wouldn’t care what kind of benefits package came from enduring something so horrific just so a guy could get to be bishop despite god knowing this monstrous detail about him beforehand but wanting to test if this child molester would choose the right and not molest the children in his ward, as is the only known way to keep from infringing your creation’s agency.

All this was done, and forgive me for repeating here, even though god knew ahead of time that this person was a child molester. That was his weakness. That was his big temptation. Destroying children (you know, the smiling little people crowded around him and sitting on his knee in all the pictures?). That was the thorn in his side. God knew that.

Now, nobody likes a snitch, but couldn’t god have told someone about this? Or, like, if , say, a stake president had prayed about this specific person, asking for promptings about just this type of thing. He could answer that prayer, like he answers everyone’s prayers to nurishandstrengthenourbodies or to get into BYU or whatever other crucial request is made.

So, yeah, perspectives. 

 

You're missing the eternal perspective here. 

Literally,  you are missing the perspective of eternal existence--and of eternal progression. WE DO NOT DIE UTTERLY BECAUSE WE SUFFER DEATH IN THIS REALM OF OUR EXISTENCE.  

Much of your anger and frustration seems to me borne of the internal assumption that this life is the one-and-only life we actually have, the one-and-done chance for happiness,  justice, goodness, or growth. 

If you realize that from any sort of Christian perspective,  life goes on after our existence on Earth--that the suffering,  horrors, and pains of this life are awful indeed--BUT WE ULTIMATELY SURVIVE THEM!--and not only 'survive' those things, but are somehow enriched, somehow recompensed, somehow made more whole despite and perhaps because of what we endure here--then the gawdawful miseries of mortality,  while yet gawdawful, are less troubling. 

If you further realize that those who commit heinous or atrocious acts in this life do immeasurable damage to themselves,  not just in this life (where they may in fact NOT encounter much justice or suffer many consequences for their misdeeds), if you recognize that they impair themselves for far longer and in far worse ways in eternity than they are capable of harming anyone in mortality--then monsters are not less monstrous,  but there is still some satisfaction which outweighs the inescapable evils which we try but often fail to anticipate,  prevent,  or mitigate. 

And, while the LDS concept of Deity recognizes that God is "much-knowing", and "very-powerful", relative to His human sons and daughters: we do not embrace the dogma of mainstream Christianity that God is absolutely omniscient,  omnipotent,  etcetera. Our God is limited and a work-in-progress, Himself. The Mormon deity is much closer to the God of Process Theology than it is to the God of Thomas Aquinas. 

You're arguing with a wholly different deity in mind.  My understanding of God precludes His ability to know, with absolute foreknowledge,  exactly which future choices His children will make.  He sees those possible choices better than any human being can see them: but He cannot know for an absolute certainty when humans will make wholesome choices which further their growth,  as opposed to choices that do harm. 

My God has just enough grasp of knowledge and power to be able to promise that He can, ultimately,  work all things to our good. But, even that takes into account the fact that this life is not and will not be the only life we have.  

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9 hours ago, flameburns623 said:

 

And, while the LDS concept of Deity recognizes that God is "much-knowing", and "very-powerful", relative to His human sons and daughters: we do not embrace the dogma of mainstream Christianity that God is absolutely omniscient,  omnipotent,  etcetera. Our God is limited and a work-in-progress, Himself. The Mormon deity is much closer to the God of Process Theology than it is to the God of Thomas Aquinas. 

You're arguing with a wholly different deity in mind.  My understanding of God precludes His ability to know, with absolute foreknowledge,  exactly which future choices His children will make.  He sees those possible choices better than any human being can see them: but He cannot know for an absolute certainty when humans will make wholesome choices which further their growth,  as opposed to choices that do harm. 

My God has just enough grasp of knowledge and power to be able to promise that He can, ultimately,  work all things to our good. But, even that takes into account the fact that this life is not and will not be the only life we have.  

IMO, this is the only way to explain these horrible errors in judgement by men who have supposedly been given the authority to seek heavenly confirmation in their decisions regarding ward and/or stake leaders....god cannot be omniscient.

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17 hours ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Maybe I just hold grudges too easily, but if I found out almost my entire life on earth was made a living hell so that god could let a guy he knew was a child molester get a fair chance at being bishop, I wouldn’t care what kind of benefits package came from enduring something so horrific just so a guy could get to be bishop despite god knowing this monstrous detail about him beforehand but wanting to test if this child molester would choose the right and not molest the children in his ward, as is the only known way to keep from infringing your creation’s agency.

All this was done, and forgive me for repeating here, even though god knew ahead of time that this person was a child molester. That was his weakness. That was his big temptation. Destroying children (you know, the smiling little people crowded around him and sitting on his knee in all the pictures?). That was the thorn in his side. God knew that.

Now, nobody likes a snitch, but couldn’t god have told someone about this? Or, like, if , say, a stake president had prayed about this specific person, asking for promptings about just this type of thing. He could answer that prayer, like he answers everyone’s prayers to nurishandstrengthenourbodies or to get into BYU or whatever other crucial request is made.

So, yeah, perspectives. 

 

So sorry for you have been through.  I agree with your post here

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Years ago I taught early morning seminary where I had one young man who was, well lets just say had an excess of personality, I was at my wits end. The class was large, approximately 35-40 students, and he was extremely disruptive making it hard to teach those in the class who sincerely wanted to learn.  So finally not knowing else what else to do  I went to his house one hot summer night after dinner and with his fathers permission took him to get an ice cream. It was a success! We talked for an hour or so about the plan of salvation and how the gaining of knowledge was an important part of that plan along with a discussion about how his behavior is affecting others. After that night Carl was a model student for the next 4 years.  Whether the events told in these articles are true or not it makes me look back on that night and causes me to wonder if I would do it again. 

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