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I thought (and may be wrong) that gender reassignment lead to church discipline and  perhaps excommunication. Perhaps a current or former bishop can weigh in on this.

A question that I have would be are temple marriages in effect if one (or both) parties are excommunicated?

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Our church doesn't really recognize the phenomenon known as "transgender".  We don't believe gender is a spectrum, or a choice, or a feeling.  We figure there are a number of of mental illnesses, some of which involve strong feelings of being something you're not, but no really, you were a boy or girl before you were born, you're the same thing now, and you'll be the same thing in the hereafter. If someone showed up saying "I'm biologically a male, but I'm transgender, so I'm really female, and I wanna get sealed in the temple to my fiance, who is biologically a female, but considers himself a male", I think that person would pretty much walk out of any bishop's office without a signed temple recommend.  

 

Edited by LoudmouthMormon
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1 minute ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Our church doesn't really recognize the phenomenon known as "transgender".  We don't believe gender is a spectrum, or a choice.  We figure there are a number of of mental illnesses, some of which involve strong feelings of being something you're not, but no really, you were a boy or girl before you were born, you're the same thing now, and you'll be the same thing in the hereafter. If someone showed up saying "I'm biologically a male, but I'm transgender, so I'm really female, and I wanna get sealed in the temple to my fiance, who is biologically a female, but considers himself a male", I think that person would pretty much walk out of any bishop's office without a signed temple recommend.  

 

I remember the questions well, and none of them address your beliefs about yourself or your personal relationship with god.

Don’t ask, don’t tell. Like have a third earring or something. 

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4 minutes ago, Prof said:

I thought (and may be wrong) that gender reassignment lead to church discipline and  perhaps excommunication. Perhaps a current or former bishop can weigh in on this.

Would hormone therapy count as reassignment? Either way, if they just identify as trans, does that in some way preclude them?

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16 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I really don't know if pretending to be a different gender affects temple worthiness or not.

I answered this earlier, but I guess it didn’t post. 

The only part I remember now is that I disagree that they are pretending at anything and also that we as outsiders cannot make that assessment. 

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3 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I remember the questions well, and none of them address your beliefs about yourself or your personal relationship with god.

Don’t ask, don’t tell. Like have a third earring or something. 

Ah.  Deceit, then.  That's your recommendation?  For seeking admission to the House of the Lord?  For a sacred ordinance?

-Smac

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2 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Whew!  Thanks.

I suspect TRs can be available in some limited circumstances, but not a sealing.

Thanks,

-Smac

You’re welcome. 

Limited like, they get the youth version where they can only do baptisms? Or limited to which transgender member is seeking one?

And the reason being that they believe they are a gender other than the one they received at birth? 

Would that be like a cousin to not sustaining the prophet?

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2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

You’re welcome. 

Limited like, they get the youth version where they can only do baptisms?

I think more like the individual underwent gender reassignment surgery prior to being baptized, or while genuinely unaware of the Church's position on such surgery.  That sort of thing.

I could see such a person being able to go through the temple.  But I don't think a sealing would be allowed.  That would be up to the First Presidency, I think.

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Or limited to which transgender member is seeking one?

The individual circumstances would be taken into account, yes.

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

And the reason being that they believe they are a gender other than the one they received at birth? 

No, I don't think that would be a factor.  Gender dysphoria is a real thing, but the problem would be gender reassignment surgery, or otherwise passingone one's self off as being female when he is biologically male, or male when she is biologically female.

2 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

Would that be like a cousin to not sustaining the prophet?

Not sure what this means.

Thanks,

-Smac

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28 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:

I remember the questions well, and none of them address your beliefs about yourself or your personal relationship with god.

Don’t ask, don’t tell. Like have a third earring or something. 

Maybe I don't understand your question.  Are you asking if two people could successfully, through surgery and stealthy omissions and lying, pretend to be opposite genders, and sucker their way into a fake sealing?

 

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3 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Ah.  Deceit, then.  

I don't follow.  Where is the deceit?

If a member identifies as trans, but doesn't have reassignment surgery, what's the problem.  Why would we treat trans members any differently than our gay brothers and sisters who are welcomed to the temple with open arms if they are worthy to enter?  If someone lives the word of wisdom, law of chastity, etc... I don't see how/why identifying as another gender would disqualify them from the Temple. 

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2 minutes ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Maybe I don't understand your question.  Are you asking if two people could successfully, through surgery and stealthy omissions and lying, pretend to be opposite genders, and sucker their way into a fake sealing?

 

No. That part was a joke. Tough room. 

I guess through recent discussion my amended question is now whether identifying as trans would preclude someone from being sealed in the temple.

I suppose the hypothetical was more fun when there were two of these scenarios happening simultaneously, but it could be reduced to a single person.

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Quote

If a member identifies as trans, but doesn't have reassignment surgery, what's the problem.  Why would we treat trans members any differently than our gay brothers and sisters who are welcomed to the temple with open arms if they are worthy to enter?  If someone lives the word of wisdom, law of chastity, etc... I don't see how/why identifying as another gender would disqualify them from the Temple. 

Thank you. 

Is gender reassignment a reason for unworthiness?

Edited by FunOnlineMan
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11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think more like the individual underwent gender reassignment surgery prior to being baptized, or while genuinely unaware of the Church's position on such surgery.  That sort of thing.

I could see such a person being able to go through the temple.  But I don't think a sealing would be allowed.  That would be up to the First Presidency, I think.

What is it about their physical body that would interfere with their eternal salvation?

 

11 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Not sure what this means.

Thanks,

-Smac

Then forget it, it was tangential. 

You’re welcome

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4 minutes ago, FunOnlineMan said:
Quote

I think more like the individual underwent gender reassignment surgery prior to being baptized, or while genuinely unaware of the Church's position on such surgery.  That sort of thing.

I could see such a person being able to go through the temple.  But I don't think a sealing would be allowed.  That would be up to the First Presidency, I think.

What is it about their physical body that would interfere with their eternal salvation?

I don't understand your question.  Could you elaborate?

Thanks,

-Smac

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4 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I don't understand your question.  Could you elaborate?

Thanks,

-Smac

That would mean a collection of scars on their body would be the only thing keeping them from being sealed to someone they love. 

That seems untenable. 

 

Edit: I suppose you could use Deuteronomy 23:1 to justify it, but you really shouldn’t. 

Edited by FunOnlineMan
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Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

They altered their physical body prior to baptism, and now they are not allowed to partake in temple blessings as a result. 

Yes.  It's a pretty fundamental alteration.

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

That would mean a collection of scars on their body would be the only thing keeping them from being sealed to someone they love. 

I think gender reassignment surgery is a lot more than "a collection of scars."  Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate for post-gender-reassignment-surgery people is so astronomically high?  (See, e.g., here, here, here, here).  

As for being sealed to "someone they love," I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the Church's paradigm, gender is not a malleable thing.  Moreover, "{g}ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

Just now, FunOnlineMan said:

That seems untenable. 

In what way?

Thanks,

-Smac

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My memory says Pres. Oaks said awhile back that we don't know enough about transgenderism to really say anything in general about it and that it would be handled on a case by case basis. Recently I have only found the comment on a proLGBT site, so I can't confirm it as valid, but the minimal experience I have had supports that (decision isn't automatic by local leaders if the individual wants an exception).

A couple of years ago on the board we had a woman who was transgender or intersex (can't remember which she identified as though biologically after she went into detail, I would say inter-sexed though she switched a few times in her life her gender choice), whose leaders were investigating if she could receive a temple recommend or not.  

She shared a number of details and even requested I talk to her bishop for info, which I did.  Background was quite complicated going back to her earliest years and treating individuals on a case by case basis makes the most sense in the face of such lifelong complications.

However, I believe the standard in the past was if sexual reassignment was chosen as an adult, temple recommends are most likely not going to be offered.  However, this can be appealed to the First Presidency.

Edited by Calm
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1 hour ago, LoudmouthMormon said:

Our church doesn't really recognize the phenomenon known as "transgender". 

I think it's actually more complex especially in the case of hermaphrodites at birth. But I'll confess I don't know the nuances on that. Certainly for the more popular types of transexuality where one feels of one gender opposed to ones biology the Church has problems with reassignment surgery. It's a tricky situation since of course the medical community tends to assume one should follow the feeling of gender but has no tests to distinguish this presumption from body dimorphism problems. There's also starting to be evidence that at least a sizable minority of people who take the surgery come to regret it. That suggests the presumption that feelings are always correct and reflect actual gender are problematic. (And in many cases where parents are pressuring children probably socially complex.

19 minutes ago, Calm said:

My memory says Pres. Oaks said awhile back that we don't know enough about transgenderism to really say anything in general about it and that it would be handled on a case by case basis.

That was my understanding too but I suspect they aren't sure what to do. However there are also clearly cases where people who feel themselves needing surgery face church discipline. It's a complex issue. There's a youth in our ward who felt themselves to be female that led to some issues. I don't know the details there though.

20 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As for being sealed to "someone they love," I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the Church's paradigm, gender is not a malleable thing.  Moreover, "{g}ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

That gets at the ambiguities. Even if gender is essential you may well have the problem of biology conflicting with what the spirit was. Clearly in some cases like hermaphroditism that happens. Given the biology which we also know is at least somewhat malleable this gets complex fast. After all someone could well argue that it's precisely because of the Church's stance on gender essentialism of spirits that this is such a big problem. If the biology doesn't match the spirit then the proper thing would be to fix the biology.

The problem is that there's no way to tell biologically when this happens versus body image issues in terms of psychological health.

Edited by clarkgoble
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13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Yes.  It's a pretty fundamental alteration.

 

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

I think gender reassignment surgery is a lot more than "a collection of scars." 

In comparison with haling their eternal progression, I think it’s pretty minor. 

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

Have you ever wondered why the suicide rate for post-gender-reassignment-surgery people is so astronomically high?  (See, e.g., here, here, here, here).  

I have wondered that. I think we probably disagree on why. 

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

As for being sealed to "someone they love," I'm not sure what you mean here.  In the Church's paradigm, gender is not a malleable thing.  Moreover, "{g}ender is an essential characteristic of individual premortal, mortal, and eternal identity and purpose."

I am not applying any special meaning. I mean it like I mean it for any other couple. 

13 minutes ago, smac97 said:

In what way?

Thanks,

-Smac

Because it puts actions taken before baptism in a position of great power.

What other pre-re-birth actions warrant such extreme actions? And does an elective surgery belong in the same category?

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