Replacing BSA in 2020

[Scott Lloyd]

1 hour ago, nuclearfuels said:

Some preppers in my stake (a few thousand miles from UT) have suggested that the Church woudl buy those lands in preparation of the people who will flee to Zion due to the plagues, natural disasters, etc. in the last days. 

Those who join the Church thereby flee to Zion by forsaking  worldliness and wickedness and becoming members of the respective “stakes of Zion” wherever they live. They thus “go out from Babylon.” This has been happening almost from the dawn of the Restoration. Those who ignore such figurative applications of scripture in their quest for the sensational too often look beyond the mark. 

Edited December 17, 2018 by Scott Lloyd

[The Nehor]

2 hours ago, nuclearfuels said:

Some preppers in my stake (a few thousand miles from UT) have suggested that the Church woudl buy those lands in preparation of the people who will flee to Zion due to the plagues, natural disasters, etc. in the last days. 

So the only way to escape the desolating scourge is to relive my days at Scout Camp? The plague will probably be a quicker and more merciful death.

[USU78]

On 12/14/2018 at 3:38 PM, revelstoked said:

Almost all camps are owned by the local councils, which are separate from BSA financially.  So I don't see a mass selling off of camps unless someone sues a specific council for past abuses, and then only that council's camp is at risk.  Ch.11 may open that up as a tactic.  The COs and Local councils are more liable than BSA IMHO but BSA has the liability insurance and endowment to go after.  You always sue people who can pay.

A distinction without a difference. The properties will be sold to pay creditors. Doesn't matter which entity is more liable. Subsidiary council's will inevitably be dragged in.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an involuntary filing now the cat's out.

[nuclearfuels]

21 hours ago, Scott Lloyd said:

Those who join the Church thereby flee to Zion by forsaking  worldliness and wickedness and becoming members of the respective “stakes of Zion” wherever they live. They thus “go out from Babylon.” This has been happening almost from the dawn of the Restoration. Those who ignore such figurative applications of scripture in their quest for the sensational too often look beyond the mark. 

Yeah, You're partially correct.

A separation in he future will likely come but not from Church HQ. 

If you look at people fleeing blue states, it's self-selection.

These crazy people have somehow gotten it into their heads that they shoudl go where they and their money are treated best.

The audacity!

[nuclearfuels]

20 hours ago, The Nehor said:

So the only way to escape the desolating scourge is to relive my days at Scout Camp? The plague will probably be a quicker and more merciful death.

The Nehor-

There is no escape.

In this life or the next

In your current location or any other

of BSA scars which are lighthouses to others...as in what to not do.

[blueglass]

8 hours ago, USU78 said:

A distinction without a difference. The properties will be sold to pay creditors. Doesn't matter which entity is more liable. Subsidiary council's will inevitably be dragged in.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an involuntary filing now the cat's out.

Do they have the capital to continue through 2019 ?  Will this crash mid-year?  

[USU78]

54 minutes ago, blueglass said:

Do they have the capital to continue through 2019 ?  Will this crash mid-year?  

No idea.

But nobody floats such an explosive trial balloon because it's fun.

[revelstoked]

12 hours ago, USU78 said:

A distinction without a difference. The properties will be sold to pay creditors. Doesn't matter which entity is more liable. Subsidiary council's will inevitably be dragged in.

I wouldn't be surprised if we see an involuntary filing now the cat's out.

They are not subsidiaries.  National doesn't own the local councils.  They are all financially independent from national.  They pay dues to national.

 

3 hours ago, blueglass said:

Do they have the capital to continue through 2019 ?  Will this crash mid-year?  

Yes, they have the capital they need.  This isn't about short term cashflow crunch, this is about long term exposure to liability from stuff that happened in the 80s and earlier.

[USU78]

20 hours ago, revelstoked said:

They are not subsidiaries.  National doesn't own the local councils.  They are all financially independent from national.  They pay dues to national.

 

Yes, they have the capital they need.  This isn't about short term cashflow crunch, this is about long term exposure to liability from stuff that happened in the 80s and earlier.

I've seen too many "independent" affiliates turned into subsidiaries with joint administration by trustees over the last thirty odd years to trust affiliate status or separate bank accounts.

I agree this is not a cash flow issue (likely), though the girl/boy scout move makes me wonder.

[The Nehor]

On 12/17/2018 at 7:24 PM, nuclearfuels said:

Yeah, You're partially correct.

A separation in he future will likely come but not from Church HQ. 

If you look at people fleeing blue states, it's self-selection.

These crazy people have somehow gotten it into their heads that they shoudl go where they and their money are treated best.

The audacity!

When I look for references to lamenting the loss of wealth in end times prophecy it is not the people of Zion doing it or fleeing for economic preservation. Instead it is the people of Babylon lamenting their lost wealth.

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/18/2018 at 8:39 PM, The Nehor said:

When I look for references to lamenting the loss of wealth in end times prophecy it is not the people of Zion doing it or fleeing for economic preservation. Instead it is the people of Babylon lamenting their lost wealth.

Prophecy or not, math is math.

When social services can't sustain the needs placed on them, people leave being left with no other choice.

This is long after the smart money has left.

Nothin' but the pride cycle repeating itself in our day

[The Nehor]

27 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Prophecy or not, math is math.

When social services can't sustain the needs placed on them, people leave being left with no other choice.

This is long after the smart money has left.

Nothin' but the pride cycle repeating itself in our day

I am not sure you get the pride cycle.

Do not get me wrong. If you want to leave a state due to political and economic conditions that is great and fine but if you want to impute sin to someone’s political views you are probably on the road to political idolatry.

[nuclearfuels]

12 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I am not sure you get the pride cycle.

Do not get me wrong. If you want to leave a state due to political and economic conditions that is great and fine but if you want to impute sin to someone’s political views you are probably on the road to political idolatry.

Impute sin?

Sorry, Nehor.

Politically, I strive to be an atheist.

As they say: It is what it is.

Math is math.

Sin is sin.

Biology is biology.

I AM what I AM, God told Moses.

Objective reality exists regardless of how offensive it is.

“Absolute truth exists in a world that increasingly disdains and dismisses absolutes.” —Elder David A. Bednar, “Come and See”

[The Nehor]

12 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Impute sin?

Sorry, Nehor.

Politically, I strive to be an atheist.

As they say: It is what it is.

Math is math.

Sin is sin.

Biology is biology.

I AM what I AM, God told Moses.

Objective reality exists regardless of how offensive it is.

“Absolute truth exists in a world that increasingly disdains and dismisses absolutes.” —Elder David A. Bednar, “Come and See”

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

[nuclearfuels]

3 minutes ago, The Nehor said:

I honestly have no idea what you are trying to communicate here.

Some things people advocate are sinful.

 

Not by my judgment or yours

 

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Some things people advocate are sinful.

 

Not by my judgment or yours

 

Okay, I do not dispute that specific point.  

[nuclearfuels]

On ‎12‎/‎20‎/‎2018 at 11:19 AM, The Nehor said:

Okay, I do not dispute that specific point.  

Using the data from the Census Bureau, here is how many people have left Illinois since 2014:

2014: 9,307
2015: 24,620
2016: 37,447
2017: 40,699
2018: 45,116

Only New York reported a greater population loss than Illinois. The Empire State lost 48,510 residents from 2017 to 2018, according to the Census data.

“It’s taxes. It’s corruption. It’s politics,” former Illinois resident Mary Miller, who moved out of the state in July to settle in Florida, told the Chicago Tribune. “And I don’t mean Republicans or Democrats; it’s all of them.”

-

Texas is the No. 1 state people move trucks to, with states like Florida, South Carolina, Tennessee, North Carolina and Colorado rounding out the top 10. The states people are fleeing? New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Illinois — and at the top, California.

These facts are not coincidences. In fact, in 2016 the Golden State lost almost 143,000 net residents to other states — that figure is an 11 percent increase from 2015. Between 2005 and 2015, Los Angeles and San Francisco alone lost 250,000 residents. The largest socioeconomic segment moving from California is the upper-middle class. The state is home to some of the most burdensome taxes and regulations in the nation. Meanwhile, its social engineering — from green energy to wealth redistribution — have made many working families poorer. As California begins its long decline, the influx outward is picking up in earnest.

-

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/384536-the-great-exodus-out-of-americas-blue-cities

[The Nehor]

6 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Using the data from the Census Bureau, here is how many people have left Illinois since 2014:

2014: 9,307
2015: 24,620
2016: 37,447
2017: 40,699
2018: 45,116

Only New York reported a greater population loss than Illinois. The Empire State lost 48,510 residents from 2017 to 2018, according to the Census data.

“It’s taxes. It’s corruption. It’s politics,” former Illinois resident Mary Miller, who moved out of the state in July to settle in Florida, told the Chicago Tribune. “And I don’t mean Republicans or Democrats; it’s all of them.”

-

Texas is the No. 1 state people move trucks to, with states like Florida, South Carolina, Tennessee, North Carolina and Colorado rounding out the top 10. The states people are fleeing? New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Illinois — and at the top, California.

These facts are not coincidences. In fact, in 2016 the Golden State lost almost 143,000 net residents to other states — that figure is an 11 percent increase from 2015. Between 2005 and 2015, Los Angeles and San Francisco alone lost 250,000 residents. The largest socioeconomic segment moving from California is the upper-middle class. The state is home to some of the most burdensome taxes and regulations in the nation. Meanwhile, its social engineering — from green energy to wealth redistribution — have made many working families poorer. As California begins its long decline, the influx outward is picking up in earnest.

-

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/384536-the-great-exodus-out-of-americas-blue-cities

One of your sources claim it is the poor forced to flee, another claims a lot of the middle class are leaving (which you somehow covert to the upper-middle class for some reason). You claim there is a 250,000 resident net loss in Los Angeles and San Francisco but that is a net loss of a specific demographic (poor who cannot afford to live there) and they both gained population overall. While the state lost 143,000 American citizens net through people leaving the state you ignore that the population continues to rise in the state, a lot of it due to foreign immigration and natural population growth.

I am not disagreeing with you but your haphazard use of sources that disagree with the point you posted them to show definitely prove you need to be much more careful about reading your sources more carefully.

[Bernard Gui]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:58 AM, nuclearfuels said:

These facts are not coincidences. In fact, in 2016 the Golden State lost almost 143,000 net residents to other states — that figure is an 11 percent increase from 2015. Between 2005 and 2015, Los Angeles and San Francisco alone lost 250,000 residents. The largest socioeconomic segment moving from California is the upper-middle class. The state is home to some of the most burdensome taxes and regulations in the nation. Meanwhile, its social engineering — from green energy to wealth redistribution — have made many working families poorer. As California begins its long decline, the influx outward is picking up in earnest.

They move here to Washington and Oregon and bring all that wonderful stuff with them, somehow expecting what is destroying California will work better here.

Edited December 22, 2018 by Bernard Gui

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/21/2018 at 3:15 PM, The Nehor said:

One of your sources claim it is the poor forced to flee, another claims a lot of the middle class are leaving (which you somehow covert to the upper-middle class for some reason). You claim there is a 250,000 resident net loss in Los Angeles and San Francisco but that is a net loss of a specific demographic (poor who cannot afford to live there) and they both gained population overall. While the state lost 143,000 American citizens net through people leaving the state you ignore that the population continues to rise in the state, a lot of it due to foreign immigration and natural population growth.

I am not disagreeing with you but your haphazard use of sources that disagree with the point you posted them to show definitely prove you need to be much more careful about reading your sources more carefully.

Aw, thanks Nehor.

The text provided were quotes.

Your disagreement lies with the authors of those articles, the Census, etc.

[The Nehor]

7 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

Aw, thanks Nehor.

The text provided were quotes.

Your disagreement lies with the authors of those articles, the Census, etc.

No, if the whole thing was a quote you used a shoddy source without checking it.

[cinepro]

On 12/21/2018 at 11:58 AM, nuclearfuels said:

Using the data from the Census Bureau, here is how many people have left Illinois since 2014:

2014: 9,307
2015: 24,620
2016: 37,447
2017: 40,699
2018: 45,116

Only New York reported a greater population loss than Illinois. The Empire State lost 48,510 residents from 2017 to 2018, according to the Census data.

“It’s taxes. It’s corruption. It’s politics,” former Illinois resident Mary Miller, who moved out of the state in July to settle in Florida, told the Chicago Tribune. “And I don’t mean Republicans or Democrats; it’s all of them.”

-

Texas is the No. 1 state people move trucks to, with states like Florida, South Carolina, Tennessee, North Carolina and Colorado rounding out the top 10. The states people are fleeing? New York, New Jersey, Massachusetts, Michigan, Pennsylvania, Illinois — and at the top, California.

These facts are not coincidences. In fact, in 2016 the Golden State lost almost 143,000 net residents to other states — that figure is an 11 percent increase from 2015. Between 2005 and 2015, Los Angeles and San Francisco alone lost 250,000 residents. The largest socioeconomic segment moving from California is the upper-middle class. The state is home to some of the most burdensome taxes and regulations in the nation. Meanwhile, its social engineering — from green energy to wealth redistribution — have made many working families poorer. As California begins its long decline, the influx outward is picking up in earnest.

-

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance/384536-the-great-exodus-out-of-americas-blue-cities

You might find this recent article interesting...

Who moves to California? The wealthier and better educated, mostly

Quote

But the latest data are far from dire. The U.S. Census Bureau, in its newly released surveys for 2017, shows that California’s net migration remained fairly stable. Since 2010, as the economic recovery took hold and housing prices skyrocketed, departures accelerated — but the number of newcomers rose steadily as well.

The state attracts a steady stream of college graduates, especially from the East Coast, even as many less-educated residents move to neighboring states — and to Texas — in search of a lower cost of living.

 

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/28/2018 at 9:53 AM, The Nehor said:

No, if the whole thing was a quote you used a shoddy source without checking it.

You're disagreement remains with the authors of those articles.

[The Nehor]

8 minutes ago, nuclearfuels said:

You're disagreement remains with the authors of those articles.

Nope. You posted them.

[nuclearfuels]

On 12/28/2018 at 12:43 PM, cinepro said:

You might find this recent article interesting...

Who moves to California? The wealthier and better educated, mostly

 

From your cited article:

• More people left California (661,026) than arrived (523,131) from other U.S. states. 

• Among the 25-years-and-older set, the state lost a net 86,890 residents without bachelor’s degrees, and just 4,443 with a four-year degree. It gained 11,653 people with graduate degrees. (Ok. So the 11K graduate-degreed people that moved in are equal in economic output to the 87K that left? Doubt it.)

• No state boasts more loudly of its attractions than Texas. Indeed, 63,174 people relocated from California to the nation’s second-most populous state, more than to anywhere else in the U.S. But it’s also true that no state sent more people here than the Lone Star State — 40,999. (This is a net loss of 22,175 which the article's author tries to cite as a mitigating factor in the net loss of people, in an odd "it's not so bad in CA" attempted theory.)