Hype for April 2019 Conference

[Rain]

3 hours ago, alter idem said:

 

It's sad that this happens, but I'm not surprised that some were upset by Pres. Nelson's very clear call to repentance which he offered.  However, it is his job--that's one of the most important parts of what a Prophet of God does and as we've seen from past prophets, it doesn't exactly endear them with those he's called to preach--people have actually killed Prophets when they didn't like what they said.   Pres. Nelson is fulfilling his call as President and Prophet, to prepare us for the second coming of Christ.  That includes getting some to straighten out their priorities and come to Christ; accept his ordinances and make covenants with him.

President Nelson is the Lord's servant on earth and he is supposed to warn and when needed, call God's children to repentance.   How we take that admonition and counsel he gives, is up to us, because we have Agency to choose.  I hope that many who took offense, or were hurt by his words will look inside themselves with humility and a sincere desire to know what God wants for them and Pray for guidance on how they can make changes to be able to return to live with him in the eternities.

 

3 hours ago, ALarson said:

The person who called my Bishop in tears is a very faithful member of the church.   It seems to have caused pain for active members of the church (maybe even more than those who have left the church).

 

2 hours ago, bluebell said:

Was there a part of his talk that could be especially painful for parents in that position?  I can’t remember. 

I really struggled with the talk. I'm trying to get myself in a good place to be ready to read through it with the Spirit  when the transcripts are available. I don't plan on really saying anything more than this post till I have read through it. 

To be honest I didn't notice any calls to repentance at all.  Perhaps I zoned out.  Perhaps what bothered me so much is the only thing I can remember.  

I am perfectly fine that salvation is an individual thing.  It was the repetition of the exaltation being a family thing line that hurt.  Technically I know that families are sealed together, but in reality I have no comprehension of how that works so I have always trusted that we will have more light and knowledge on that.  I just sat there through the talk thinking "how can it be a family thing when not everyone in the family wants to be a part of it and there is nothing I can do when agency is essential?"

[JAHS]

2 minutes ago, Rain said:

 

 

I really struggled with the talk. I'm trying to get myself in a good place to be ready to read through it with the Spirit  when the transcripts are available. I don't plan on really saying anything more than this post till I have read through it. 

To be honest I didn't notice any calls to repentance at all.  Perhaps I zoned out.  Perhaps what bothered me so much is the only thing I can remember.  

I am perfectly fine that salvation is an individual thing.  It was the repetition of the exaltation being a family thing line that hurt.  Technically I know that families are sealed together, but in reality I have no comprehension of how that works so I have always trusted that we will have more light and knowledge on that.  I just sat there through the talk thinking "how can it be a family thing when not everyone in the family wants to be a part of it and there is nothing I can do when agency is essential?"

I listened to the talk very carefully a second time and to be clear what he was talking about are people who have not decided to accept the gospel and the ordinances of the church or who have left the church.
He was not talking about people who were already members but were struggling with other issues that make life difficult,  like inactive family members, gay family members, etc. He has addressed those issues in other talks.
Members need to understand the the plan of Salvation is a plan of happiness. If we as individuals are true and faithful God will give us everything we need to make us happy in the eternity. We still have an eternity to go where anything can happen, including the family member who rejects it now but may accept it later. Faith and patience are needed.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

12 minutes ago, JAHS said:

I listened to the talk very carefully a second time and to be clear what he was talking about are people who have not decided to accept the gospel and the ordinances of the church or who have left the church.
He was not talking about people who were already members but were struggling with other issues that make life difficult,  like inactive family members, gay family members, etc. He has addressed those issues in other talks.
Members need to understand the the plan of Salvation is a plan of happiness. If we as individuals are true and faithful God will give us everything we need to make us happy in the eternity. We still have an eternity to go where anything can happen, including the family member who rejects it now but may accept it later. Faith and patience are needed.

Elder Holland is on record stating that heaven would not be heaven for him without his wife and kids. Yet people are just supposed to shrug off the fact that their spouse has willfully turned their back on the gospel? It will work out in the eternities when they will be wife number 3 to someone they don’t know? Is this where they are supposed to get comfort? Where is the happiness in this teaching?

[bluebell]

2 hours ago, ALarson said:

Because I believe all teaching and principles of the gospel are eternal.  I believe that it's humans who change and evolve in their beliefs and teachings.  Most all of what I've seen taught by our leaders that has been later changed by other leaders, are teachings that I believe came from man, not from God.

I get that's what you believe, I'm just wondering where the belief comes from.  It's fine though, i'm just being curious.  It's not that important.

[Duncan]

2 hours ago, MustardSeed said:

Taking the doctrines at face value I think a lot of people can feel deep pain if they are faithful members.  

Remember Lehi and his wife felt excruciating pain at the behavior of their sons.  

I think that this church is exhilarating for families where every child remains faithful.  Those family portraits where everyone is smiling and happy and righteous must make the patriarchs and matriarchs so filled with joy. 

I don’t have that experience.  I have followed ALL the big rules , and from the outside looking in appear to be TBM.  However, I have secrets in my life. Not my own, but others, that have impacted my children.  Two of my five have set aside their faith and they have not made covenants with God. 

My bishop 5 years ago said at the pulpit, “If you have not brought every child to God you have failed as a parent.”  I am not paraphrasing/ those words stung.  Maybe according to The Gospel, technically he was right.  Maybe God failed with Lucifer.  Maybe Sariah failed. 

Here is all I know.  I make it safe for my children to have a relationship with me.  I encourage them to forge their own path.  I do not control their lives.  

And I believe that any God worthy of title God is not going to punish me after I have lived a life living all the big rules and as many of the little ones as I can.  He will grant me happiness in the eternities. 

To be honest, I’m not sure exaltation is really my thing. I’m not into sharing husbands. 

Im not worried.  Life is too short.  But I’ll lie if I don’t say, I felt a little envious yesterday of that family photo, and I felt a little envious of the prophet telling his dying daughter that she had succeeded because all her children had chosen high functioning spouses and had all been sealed.  ❤️ No one will say those things to me when I’m dying.  I feel I’m missing out on that.  Maybe I am worried after all? 

keep in mind though Pres. Nelson had a daughter get divorced, two daughters die, born and raised in Utah😶, served in the Korean War, he has had his fair share of adversity

[JAHS]

41 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Elder Holland is on record stating that heaven would not be heaven for him without his wife and kids. Yet people are just supposed to shrug off the fact that their spouse has willfully turned their back on the gospel? It will work out in the eternities when they will be wife number 3 to someone they don’t know? Is this where they are supposed to get comfort? Where is the happiness in this teaching?

Did you read the second paragraph of my post?

[ALarson]

12 minutes ago, bluebell said:

I get that's what you believe, I'm just wondering where the belief comes from. 

It's just what I believe about God.  I don't believe he's a trickster who says one thing is righteous at one time and then changes his mind later on.  I honestly cannot think of one principle that has come from God (or from Christ's teachings) that has changed.  But I'm open to hearing other's opinions as well too.

This is why I feel so strongly that each person needs to develop their own relationship with God and not depend on any other human to tell them what is right or wrong.  Of course I believe our Prophets and leaders are good men, but they are fallible just like the rest of us.   We should always pray for our own confirmation. 

Edited April 8, 2019 by ALarson

[bluebell]

7 minutes ago, ALarson said:

It's just what I believe about God.  I don't believe he's a trickster who says one thing is righteous at one time and then changes his mind later on.  I honestly cannot think of one principle that has come from God (or from Christ's teachings) that has changed.  But I'm open to hearing other's opinions as well too.

This is why I feel so strongly that each person needs to develop their own relationship with God and not depend on any other human to tell them what is right or wrong.  Of course I believe our Prophets and leaders are good men, but they are fallible just like the rest of us.   We should always pray for our own confirmation. 

I think it'll start another thread on the topic.   

[SeekingUnderstanding]

14 minutes ago, JAHS said:

Did you read the second paragraph of my post?

Yes. I found it nonsensical. If I’m a believer and the prophet tells myspouse/child they are ruining their families exhaultation, I’m just supposed to tune that out!?

[Calm]

17 minutes ago, ALarson said:

  I honestly cannot think of one principle that has come from God (or from Christ's teachings) that has changed

What about the commandment to only teach the Gospel to the Jews ( Matt 10 and 15) that was later rescinded through Peter (unless you don't believe it was rescinded)?

[ALarson]

34 minutes ago, Calm said:

What about the commandment to only teach the Gospel to the Jews ( Matt 10 and 15) that was later rescinded through Peter (unless you don't believe it was rescinded)?

Matthew 10:15?  Or which verses in chapter 10 and chapter 15? 

If you are referring to the specific instructions Christ gave the apostles for their first mission, I don't consider that to be a gospel principle.  

But maybe you mean something else?

Edited April 8, 2019 by ALarson

[Calm]

1 hour ago, ALarson said:

Matthew 10:15?  Or which verses in chapter 10 and chapter 15? 

If you are referring to the specific instructions Christ gave the apostles for their first mission, I don't consider that to be a gospel principle.  

But maybe you mean something else?

No, that was it.  Thank you.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Yes. I found it nonsensical. If I’m a believer and the prophet tells myspouse/child they are ruining their families exhaultation, I’m just supposed to tune that out!?

He didn't exactly say it the way you are. He is just stating church doctrine that has been around for a long time. He is, I think in a loving way, inviting these people to give the gospel a chance to be a part of their lives. 
Believing members already know of this doctrine. It is nothing new. God will be fair and we need to be patient and hopeful that people can change in the future. 
President  Nelson is like Samuel the Lamanite preaching on the wall as a prophet and telling the people what God wants him to tell them only perhaps in a much nicer loving way.

 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, JAHS said:

He didn't exactly say it the way you are. He is just stating church doctrine that has been around for a long time. He is, I think in a loving way, inviting these people to give the gospel a chance to be a part of their lives. 
Believing members already know of this doctrine. It is nothing new. God will be fair and we need to be patient and hopeful that people can change in the future. 
President  Nelson is like Samuel the Lamanite preaching on the wall as a prophet and telling the people what God wants him to tell them only perhaps in a much nicer loving way.

 

Right, the Doctrine is pretty clear. If your child leaves they won’t be in heaven with you. If your spouse leaves, and you want exaltation, you will be assigned to another man or women potentially in a polygamous relationship. If your mother or Father leaves, you will be sealed to a different faithful parent. Many spouses feel just as Elder Holland does, that heaven would not be heaven without their family. In your post you talk about the plan of happiness, but I see nothing in this plan for part member families but pain and heart-ache. Perhaps it’s necessary to achieve some larger goal, but let’s not pretend it’s anything other than painful for someone that is expressing genuine pain. 

[bluebell]

11 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Right, the Doctrine is pretty clear. If your child leaves they won’t be in heaven with you. If your spouse leaves, and you want exaltation, you will be assigned to another man or women potentially in a polygamous relationship. If your mother or Father leaves, you will be sealed to a different faithful parent. Many spouses feel just as Elder Holland does, that heaven would not be heaven without their family. In your post you talk about the plan of happiness, but I see nothing in this plan for part member families but pain and heart-ache. Perhaps it’s necessary to achieve some larger goal, but let’s not pretend it’s anything other than painful for someone that is expressing genuine pain. 

Can you share where Pres. Nelson taught this?  I sincerely don't remember it from this weekend.

[SeekingUnderstanding]

2 minutes ago, bluebell said:

Can you share where Pres. Nelson taught this?  I sincerely don't remember it from this weekend.

In response to this from JAHS: “He is just stating church doctrine that has been around for a long time.” The doctrine is clear. Exhalation is a family affair. Dealings are necessary. If your spouse or parent make it (D and C saysthis includes 

These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.)

what happens?

[bluebell]

25 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

In response to this from JAHS: “He is just stating church doctrine that has been around for a long time.” The doctrine is clear. Exhalation is a family affair. Dealings are necessary. If your spouse or parent make it (D and C saysthis includes 

These are they who are honorable men of the earth, who were blinded by the craftiness of men.

76 These are they who receive of his glory, but not of his fulness.)

what happens?

I don't know that anyone exactly knows what happens or how that all works.

[JAHS]

1 hour ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

Right, the Doctrine is pretty clear. If your child leaves they won’t be in heaven with you. If your spouse leaves, and you want exaltation, you will be assigned to another man or women potentially in a polygamous relationship. If your mother or Father leaves, you will be sealed to a different faithful parent. Many spouses feel just as Elder Holland does, that heaven would not be heaven without their family. In your post you talk about the plan of happiness, but I see nothing in this plan for part member families but pain and heart-ache. Perhaps it’s necessary to achieve some larger goal, but let’s not pretend it’s anything other than painful for someone that is expressing genuine pain. 

It was also painful for those people  to hear what Samuel preached to them, so much so that they shot arrows at him, like many are doing at president Nelson today. But it is what God wants to be said to the world.  All those things you say are not known or understood for certain. We really have no idea what it will be like for sure. All we can do is trust that God will bless everyone according the their hearts. 
 

[SeekingUnderstanding]

Just now, JAHS said:

It was also painful for those people  to hear what Samuel preached to them, so much so that they shot arrows at him, like many are doing at president Nelson today. But it is what God wants to be said to the world.  All those things you say are not known or understood for certain. We really have no idea what it will be like for sure. All we can do is trust that God will bless everyone according the their hearts. 
 

I think you misunderstand who is in pain. It’s the faithful members who are in mental anguish. 

[JAHS]

9 minutes ago, SeekingUnderstanding said:

I think you misunderstand who is in pain. It’s the faithful members who are in mental anguish. 

Faithful members are in anguish for many things their spouses or children do or don't do. Not just in matters of religion. It's part of life. 
We can't force our family members into heaven. They have to want to be there. They have to want to obey the conditions required to get there.
The faithful members can try to do what they can to teach and help them, but if they decide to reject it, yes it is painful for the faithful church member.
But a faithful member trusts God and knows He will be just and fair and will not give up on the non-believing family member. 

[MustardSeed]

3 hours ago, Duncan said:

keep in mind though Pres. Nelson had a daughter get divorced, two daughters die, born and raised in Utah😶, served in the Korean War, he has had his fair share of adversity

Thank you :)

i fall into a “grass is greener” trap often.  I’m constantly reminded that everyone is human. But my desire for The Best has my radar keenly honed in on situations that leave me feeling inadequate. It’s a constant battle . My inner perfectionist is so drawn to The Plan of Salvation. 

[ALarson]

4 hours ago, Duncan said:

keep in mind though Pres. Nelson had a daughter get divorced, two daughters die, born and raised in Utah😶, served in the Korean War, he has had his fair share of adversity

Not to mention what his one daughter is going through right now with the lawsuit against her and her husband.  That's got to be awful for him and their entire family.

Edited April 9, 2019 by ALarson

[Kenngo1969]

Over and over and over again, we have been entreated to seek the Holy Spirit and to invite it to teach us what we need to know from any talk or lesson or other interaction we may have in the Restored Gospel of Jesus Christ.  We are told that if we do that, we will receive revelation specific to our needs and circumstances.  I certainly don't want to be unduly harsh or judgmental toward anyone who is feeling genuine pain, but the simple fact of the matter is, we cannot expect any leader in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints, no matter how well-intentioned, without the intercession of the Spirit, to teach us what we, individually need to know from any given message (unless we're eyeing him or her face-to-face across a desk, and probably not even then.  I've as much as asked Bishops what I should do, and, invariably, their response has been, "Pray, fast if necessary, do whatever else is necessary to seek and to obtain the guidance of the Holy Spirit, and follow it.  I'll be praying with you, but I am not The Source.") President Nelson gave great (and in my opinion, inspired) direction this weekend, but he is not The Source.

That individualized teaching, learning, and revelation is the Holy Spirit's job, and it's our responsibility to seek it.  This is especially so in the current environment where decentralization, removing ultimate responsibility for the welfare of units of the Church of Jesus Christ and their members from general Church leadership and placing it on the shoulders of local leadership (including on the shoulders of fathers, mothers, and occupants of the home), and decentralizing responsibility for effective Gospel teaching and learning down, not only to local teachers and leaders, but to families and individuals.  That's the whole point of "home-centered-Church-supported" teaching, learning, and everything else.

So, with all due respect, to anyone who says, "President Nelson's message (or [fill-in-the-blank-with-name-of-Church-leader-here's message) was [fill-in-pejorative-adjective-here: hurtful, unloving, unkind, and so on, ad infinitum and, potentially ad nauseam]," my response would be (with due respect and as lovingly as possible), to say, "We all heard what President Nelson said.  What does the Spirit tell you?"  With all due respect, if you were hurt or offended or [fill-in-the-blank-with-negative-emotion-here] by President Nelson's (or by anyone else's) words, you're doing it wrong.  You're skipping/missing the most important step.  Do I need to repent?  Doesn't everybody?  As Joanne, Jim's wife in the Church of Jesus Christ production, The Prodigal Son told him, "None of us can make it through this life, or halfway into the next, without the Savior."  And as Ann Landers used to say, "No one can make you feel inferior without your consent."  And (again, with all due respect), anyone who takes offense where it is intended is a fool, and anyone who takes offense where it isn't intended is an even bigger fool.

Edited April 9, 2019 by Kenngo1969

[Kenngo1969]

In one way or another and to one degree or another, we all have less-than-ideal family circumstances, no matter how much we do in an effort to address or to ameliorate those circumstances.  Others have mentioned that divorce has impacted the Nelsons' extended family, and it's certainly not easy to bury a spouse, let alone one or two of one's children.  I'm trying to remember.  It's been a couple of months since I read that part of President Nelson's biography, but I don't think his parents were active (at least, they weren't for a period of time while he was in the home).  Anyone getting a message of, "I'm-perfect-and-this-is-how-you-do-it," or "Adversity, Schmadversity," or "If-we-live-the-Gospel-life-will-be-endless-sunshine-and-roses-and-rainbows" from President Russell M. Nelson had probably best reevaluate that conclusion, and what he says should be considered in light of what has happened to him.  Life ain't easy for any of us; it ain't meant to be.

[MustardSeed]

2 minutes ago, Kenngo1969 said:

In one way or another and to one degree or another, we all have less-than-ideal family circumstances, no matter how much we do in an effort to address or to ameliorate those circumstances.  Others have mentioned that divorce has impacted the Nelsons' extended family, and it's certainly not easy to bury a spouse, let alone one or two of one's children.  I'm trying to remember.  It's been a couple of months since I read that part of President Nelson's biography, but I don't think his parents were active (at least, they weren't for a period of time while he was in the home).  Anyone getting a message of, "I'm-perfect-and-this-is-how-you-do-it," or "Adversity, Schmadversity," or "If-we-live-the-Gospel-life-will-be-endless-sunshine-and-roses-and-rainbows" from President Russell M. Nelson had probably best reevaluate that conclusion, and what he says should be considered in light of what has happened to him.  Life ain't easy for any of us; it ain't meant to be.

Yes.  good reminder. 

My family will likely not be exalted.  But that’s ok.  I’ll keep reminding myself.